Thread by @Soulful76_Leaf

The WR won't "fix" Orthodoxy, however the idea that "needing" something is directly linked to sufficiency is arbitrary & a rhetorical slight of hand to discredit the WR, it poisons the well. Was 4 Gospels necessary instead of 1? Was the faith "insufficient" prior to Constantine?

https://twitter.com/PalamismRspctr/status/1609572084379783171

Fr. Patrick Reardon touches upon the question of "What can the WR contribute to Orthodoxy?" in this talk:
ancientfaith.com/specials/aoc_2…
In it he rightfully points out the fact that the Chrysostom Liturgy is distinctively pre-chalcedonian, meaning that all the theology found therein is

limited to the first 300 years, for a handful of exceptional additions such as calls of intercession to the Theotokos. What it lacks however, on that note, is an emphasis on Christ Mediator; the closest it gets to this theological point are appeals to the compassions of God.

The Chrysostom Liturgy is very much frozen on the point of Christ Pantocrator, not that of Christ God-man on the road to Calvary. Key word being emphasis, it is not to say that these themes are entirely absent in either Liturgy, however the Mass of St. Gregory is more solemn.

The Mass of St. Gregory, unlike Chrysostom, is distinctively post-Chalcedonian, it is post 6th century. One of the big heresies of the early centuries was subordinationism, hence Fr. Patrick says (and I'm inclined to agree) that the Chrysostom Liturgy distances itself away from

the theme of Christ as Mediator because of a fear of subordinationism, wishing to leave no room for misinterpretation. The Gregorian Mass lacks this fear, quite explicitly, in that the entire Mass relates to Christ's path from the garden, to Calvary, up the hill, to the Cross.

All of this to say, the Chrysostom Liturgy is holy and beautiful, it is not lacking in truth, salvific ability, or anything substantive, however if someone assumes that the WR has nothing to substantively contribute, they're objectively wrong.

& on that note, while the WR isn't the "key" that will convert 99% of the West, it has to be said that if Orthodoxy truly desire to grow in the West beyond 1% in any respective country, which it hasn't done for over 300 years, our approach to evangelism needs to radically change.

Whenever I see people propose more liturgies in English, French, Spanish, etc, and end it there, as if language barriers are the only problem causing nearly half a century of wide scale failure, one has to assume most converts suggesting this are either naive or in denial.

As the old saying goes "Insanity is to repeat over & over again & to expect different results", you know what made the faith spread in the past? It was a deep love for the lands missionaries arrived in, a willingness to sanctify culture, not only on secular terms but in totality.

In totality meaning that each culture could find ways to involve their own aesthetics into Iconography, they had their own Rites or uses of the Roman Rite just as Russians and Greeks differ in uses under the Byzantine umbrella. This mindset (phronema) is totally absent in...

modern converts with a chip on their shoulder against the post-schism West or in a subset of ethnic cradles who don't view this as a problem they need to worry about, even when they benefit off of living in our lands; most offensively in the context of diasporas we sheltered.

There is less dignity given to, less reverence given, to a schismatic or heretical Western culture than to a Pagan Western culture. St. Remy of Rheims treated Frankish Pagans better than most of you treat French Catholics, and then go on places like Twitter or Discord

to preach to the choir, more often than not comprised of self-taught young men with an obsession for theology and apologetics, an amateurish knowledge of their own history, who can more easily list off 10 dead emperors than they can any of their own kings or their local governor.

The Western Rite will not be what magically converts all of the West, but I can tell you this much, the people counter-signalling the Western Rite, are a symptom of the problems causing Orthodoxy to remain 1% of any Western country they live in.