Thread by @esme_saysno

And we're back for another exciting day of The Amy Hamm Witch Hunt! I'll be tweeting highlights as best I can

#IStandWithAmyHamm #NursesWillSpeak

Counsel for the BC Colleges of Nurses and Midwives Barbara Findlay is cross-examining Dr. Miriam Grossman regarding her qualifications as a witness for the respondent. Going over her CV.

Findlay introduces a transcript of a talk Grossman gave, transcribed by Findlay herself. Karen Bastow, counsel for Amy objects, as the transcript was not done by a third party, asks to see the actual video of the talk instead.

Panel went on break to discuss introducing video. (Now back and not sure if we'll see the video.) Findlay moves on to Grossman's published books, questioning her on content.

Findlay questions Grossman about her forthcoming book "Lost in Trans Nation: A Child Psychiatrist's Guide Out of the Madness" Findlay: what do you mean by "madness". Grossman explains:
amazon.com/Lost-Trans-Nat…

Grossman: when kids are told they're born in the wrong body they believe it. For them to be told this is very dangerous, unethical. Madness for health professionals to instruct boys on "tucking" in which the boys moves his testes up into his inguinal canal and tapes his penis.

Grossman: it's madness for girls to bind their breasts and cause damage such as broken ribs and impaired breathing. Telling kids they can change their sex is madness and deception. I'm in the trenches and seeing the damage.

Findlay: you're treating kids, how do clients find you? Grossman: mostly word of mouth. Findlay: trans kids see you? Grossman: yes, but I object to your terms. You have to tell me what you mean by "trans".

Findlay: you're taking trans kids and turning them cis? Grossman: I never made that claim. Findlay: what claim do you make? Grossman: I help my clients to feel better about themselves.

Findlay asks Grossman to describe her treatment process. Grossman: the same as any client. Exploratory, finding out everything I can about them, trauma, life at home and school, identifying sources of distress, anxiety, sadness. It's basic psychotherapy.

Findlay: what is the presenting problem with gender-confused kids generally? Grossman: usually the parents have recognized their kids need help. Could be a variety of issues. Findlay: but what about gender-confused kids specifically?

Counsel for Amy, Karen Bastow objects: Dr. Grossman is being qualified as an expert in child psychiatry. Findlay asks again: would these gender-confused kids being coming without their parents? Grossman: generally, kids wouldn't be coming without their parents, often reluctantly.

Findlay: you understand you need to remain neutral while treating patients? Grossman: yes but not where harm to client is involved. Findlay: what about "gender journey". Grossman: I tell clients it's their journey but living as opposite sex is one solution but not best solution.

Grossman: my responsibility is to educate clients. For instance, there are risks in taking cross-sex hormones. Findlay: how many of your clients continue on their intended "gender journey"? Grossman: I can't answer that. Long process. Not comfortable with line of questioning.

Findlay asks again: what percentage? Grossman: your question is vastly simplifying a complex process. Now on break. Back in 15.

Back from break. Bastow objects to Findlay's line of questioning before break: Findlay is implying conversion therapy, she should be more direct, Grossman is a licenced professional. Findlay interrupts: I object to the objection. Counsel cannot lead witness. Panel chair moves on.

Discussion around playing video referred to earlier. Findlay says too technically difficult to do it right now. Bastow maintains will not accept a transcript by Findlay, not previously introduced at discovery. Agreed will examine at lunch break.

Findlay returns to line of questioning before break, apologizes for appearing to over-simplify. Grossman: for me to answer your question regarding % of patients, too many complicating factors (move out of state, etc.). Can't answer because it would be speculative and misleading

Findlay: will narrow focus. At start of covid how many gender-confused patients did you have? Grossman: 40-50. Findlay: of that number, how many of patients continue to be your patient today? Grossman: 40-50 is sum. Be more specific. Findlay: how many currently? Grossman: 15-20.

Back and forth with Findlay trying to find some number. Grossman asks for clarification. Findlay repeats. Grossman: I would have to sit down and go through all the records. I don't know.

Findlay keeps hammering. Grossman sits in silence then: I have patients that I see weekly, monthly, patients who check in periodically. I can't say. It would be speculation for me to answer specifically without actual numbers. So I refuse to do that.

Findlay: do you want me to use my own numbers or do you want to give me a number? Grossman: I guess you'll do what you do. Findlay asks exact same question. Grossman: I'm waiting for an objection. Chair reminds witness she's under oath. Panel breaks to discuss.

Back and Bastow objects: Grossman can't answer because she doesn't follow them indefinitely. Findlay objects to the objection: I'm cross-examining witness on her clinical experience, she must answer. How many?

Grossman: I'm hearing a mis-characterization. I have seen 40-50, some only for evaluation, some for much longer. Findlay: did any of them successfully complete therapy? Grossman: yes, but let's define successful. Some left therapy voluntarily, some improved. some moved away.

Findlay: of your post-Tanner Stage II gender-confused clients since covid what does their successful completion of their "gender journey" look like? Grossman: I see my patients holistically. There are many issues that need to be addressed. I don't see gender identity in isolation

Findlay: is one outcome that the patient becomes comfortable with their sex assigned at birth? Grossman: I don't agree with your term. I don't use "sex assigned at birth". Sex is determined at conception.

Findlay: I'm trying to understand what you mean by comfortable in their body? But at what stage? Grossman: I don't understand what you mean by stage. Comfortable with their natural body.

Findlay: do you mean comfortable with their gender too? Grossman: what do you mean by gender because there are many definitions? Findlay: do you mean both their gender and their sex assigned at birth? Grossman: sex is not assigned. Findlay: well, what is a successful outcome?

Grossman: successful is feeling minimal discomfort with their bodies? Findlay: do you mean gender dysphoria is gone? Grossman: no, not necessarily gone. Just that they understand where it's coming from.

Grossman gives example of young man who feels uncomfortable about masculine physical traits and thinks he needs to remove hair, etc. Grossman describes how societal assumptions about masculinity contribute to his discomfort, or he may have had a negative male role model, etc.

Grossman describes how that young man can be helped to understand where the negativity is coming from. Also that we're all a combination of masculine and feminine traits and dysphoric individuals can be helped to accept that.

Findlay: do you know how many of your clients you've helped in this way? Grossman: no, but I'd like to add something. Findlay tries to cut her off. Bastow objects: must let witness add to her testimony.

Grossman continues: I've had clients from past years later get in touch to say they now recognize the truth that emerged from therapy many years earlier and are helped by it now.

Findlay: how do you work with the parents? Grossman: I help parents understand their children. Findlay: how do you do that? Grossman: outlining the issues they're dealing with in their lives at home and school, with friends, challenges such as autism, etc.

Findlay makes a formal application that the transcript of Grossman's interview be made available to Amy's counsel to ensure accuracy. Bastow submits that the video can be made available easily and objects to Findlay's application on the basis of best evidence be submitted.

Bastow points out that Grossman is not available Thursday or Friday. Qualification must be completed today. Findlay says she can complete today.

Panel has decided the Grossman interview will be submitted as audio. (Not Findlay's transcript, I take it.)

Now on lunch break. Back in an hour.

Back from lunch. The video is now queued up. Findlay continues with her cross-examination of Dr. Grossman and calls for the video segment of Grossman's presentation to @fairforall_org to be played to the panel:

Findlay: does that video represent your views today? Grossman: overall, yes. Findlay: when you're advising parents do you tell parents to support and affirm them? Grossman: I want parents to support their children. If you're asking about affirming new ID, no, I don't advise that.

Findlay: do you think social transition helps prevent suicide? Grossman: long-term, no it does not. Findlay: are you aware of research of Dr. Greta Bauer that support of parents that mitigates suicide risk? Grossman: no. This is an issue that's currently being debated.

Now a back and forth between Findlay and Bastow. Findlay claims Bauer's article was sent to Amy's counsel for Grossman to review. Bastow says not obliged to examine the document, submitted at late date, Grossman is a busy clinician. Findlay says submitting article anyway.

Now Findlay questioning Grossman on various states' hate crime laws vis-a-vis gender identity. Grossman: I'm not aware of all the laws.

Findlay submits an affidavit for Grossman to review. Now on 15-min break to allow for that.

Back from break. Findlay continues with questioning. She asks Grossman about the affidavit submitted in 2018. It was a report prepared by Grossman on GSAs submitted to an Alberta court, which was rejected as evidence by the court.

Findlay now going through the affidavit with references to sex chromosomes. Line of questioning on the biochemistry of sex determination and its immutability. For some reason, Findlay is comparing the 2018 affidavit with Grossman's written submission to this hearing.

Bastow objects to Findlay's style of questioning in which she keeps interrupting Grossman. Chair allows Findlay to continue. She keeps reading from the affidavit which covers Grossman's report on sex determination.

Findlay now questioning about Disorders of Sex Development in Grossman's report (and seems to be building up to some sort of gotcha.) But then she turns back to Grossman's CV. (So what was the point of entering that 2018 affidavit? Seems like a time-waster.)

Findlay: is this list of your speaking engagements complete? Grossman: no, I don't keep an exhaustive list of all of them. Findlay: so we can't rely on them? Grossman: the ones on the list happened, so not sure what you mean. My focus is on my patients, not keeping lists.

Findlay asks about a medical text Grossman relies on in her written submission: why did you only choose the chapters that pertain to sex determinants and not gender? Grossman: there are many contributors, most of them assert sex is dimorphic and must be recognized in medicine.

Findlay: but isn't gender important? Grossman: what does that even mean? I include all people, including trans people, but their biology must be acknowledged in medicine.

Findlay: what made you write Amy is a bright, courageous and honest person? Grossman: I've read what she's written. She stands up against a powerful movement, could have sat quietly at home. That would have been easy. But she spoke because she wants to protect women and children.

Findlay reads from Grossman's written submission, then asks: you would like gender ideology not to be taught in school? Grossman: yes. Findlay: you believe gender ideology is dangerous to kids? Grossman: yes.

Findlay: have you ever recommended puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones to a gender confused youth? Grossman: no.

Findlay concludes her cross-examination of Dr. Grossman. Bastow re-examines: do psychiatric disorders exist in specific legal jurisdictions or across legal jurisdictions? Grossman: across jurisdictions.

Findlay on follow-up: you agree there are cultures in which people are recognized socially as neither male nor female? Grossman: world has many cultures and beliefs. I'm discussing as a physician using a biological framework. Findlay: yes or no. Grossman: I'm aware, not familiar.

Back from break. Panel now questioning Grossman: how do you define gender? Grossman: I can only use others' definitions. I don't ascribe to it. Others say it's a social construct; or deeply felt internal experience; or defined as being fluid; or that it is fixed.

Panel: how do you use gender in your practice? Grossman: it's a challenge because people use the word in different ways. When I'm with a patient I would use it the way they understand. The terminology is imprecise and contradictory. Does that answer question?

Panel: not really. We want to know how you use gender. Grossman: I would use gender dysphoria as a clinical definition. Panel: what is that? Grossman: a discomfort, sense of distress. (Then reads definition from DSM-V.) This is problematic because the definition is circular.

Grossman: in current definitions gender and sex are used synonymously so that makes it challenging. Panel: have you ever recommended a patient stop taking cross-sex hormones? Grossman: no.

Grossman is dismissed. Now moving to submissions regarding qualifications. Chair indicates submissions will be accepted tomorrow morning. @Docstockk will be called tomorrow after submissions. That's it for today. Thanks for reading!