Thread by @DarrenODonovan

#RobodebtRC Block 4 Day 5. In the end, it all came down to just $92.06. By garnisheeing Ms Amato, the government incurred interest. That $92 dollars amongst billions, the hero who asked for it back, produced an accountability could not be raptured or evaded. She&VLA speak today

might be tweeting at lower tempo today due to massive work email. And ironically, paper proposals are dur by 5pm for what everyone watching #RobodebtRC know is the *event* of the year:

The National Administrative Law Conference

I’m currently without a proposal… #RobodebtRC

We will also hear from Mr Withnell. There are interesting insights into the decision to launch the OCI September 2016 in his supplementary statement. Evidence that he refused to sign the brief for the decision, due to his concerns. #RobodebtRC

Signs Mr Withnell isn't contesting the presence of averaging in the proposals as much as the first appearance. So we are already at the key DSS-DHS meeting of Feb 27 2015 where an approach is settled. Almost at the coordination/deception question from yesterday #robodebtRC

Mr Withnell has no recollection of that key meeting. It's lucky for the royal commission Kimber wrote down his memory as an explanation to others in January 2017. Without that...forensic challenges. The impact of the meeting is shown by comparing NPP drafts #robodebtRC

uh-oh Withnell resuming his narrative that averaging would be taken off the table. A shift to only 'putting' the average data to recipients. This drove the snails pace of the evidence last time. He does accept DSS warned against averaging at least. #robodebtRC

Withnell claiming his desire was to 'evolve' the proposal away from averaging. Says his experience with golightly was you'd to slow walk her towards a change of mind. He says plan was get engagement, and there was then no firm settled approach if it didn't happen #RobodebtRC

Hmm, confusing evidence, my brow is furrowed #RobodebtRC He's say they wanted people to enter their own fortnightly numbers. What would happen if they didn't 'would be firmed up' in pilot #RobodebtRC

Hmm, Withnell says he gave indications to DSS they'd work on it. That matches Kimber.
Commissioner asks if Britton/Ryman knew that.
W: Yes
"They would've been entirely clear there was a drastic change in this proposal?"
Hmm...NPP drafts flew out that day literally #RobodebtRC

Obviously we have arrived at conflicting evidence between the DHS compliance team. I found Withnell's comments about 'hoping' to evolve the situation interesting, even accepting his account, it was driven by wishful thinking. All that changed was one sentence... #RobodebtRC

Mr Scott brings him to the reality of the unchanged numbers. There are later MYEFO NPPs that refer to trusted source etc? Witness will face questions about when he first encountered averaging like Wilson. And he's in the unit that piloted and launched the thing #RobodebtRC

Of course he denied seeing the pilot in the first go round, and argued he never saw averaging before leaving DHS... which was...likely to draw questions #RobodebtRC

Commissioner again asks: how is it the savings are unchanged? [if it's a drastic change, walking away from averaging]
And we know the assumptions were premised on averaging.
institutionally, nothing is changing, his points only go to his actions/responsibility #RobodebtRC

The road the witness is walking: "I never thought we would average" extends all the way to his exit from the organisation. It's a road that will have to be tested. Because it's a challenging thing to navigate, conflicts with other accounts #robodebtRC

First reference, conspicuously to "Mr Britton's branch" with revising the costings being "a matter for them" #RobodebtRC

"Were you overseeing this?"
"Not at that level of detail"
We're at the finger pointing stage, I'm sure everyone has noticed #RobodebtRC

Mr Withnell has provided us with something of an explanation for the changed sentence - it was to satisfy DSS. And secondly according to him, to work to a vision that had no averaging. his juniors did not know the reason, so it's new #RobodebtRC

This is a similar account to Ms Wilson but on the DHS side. And will have similar pressure applied to it. The fact the numbers didn't change is obvious and logic challenge. #robodebtRC

Similar method now from Scott as Greggery yesterday, jump to a moment later in the timeline when there seem to be references to averaging or non response. Ask are you saying you were surprised by averaging? etc #RobodebtRC

Witness' handwriting on a brief noting approximately 60 per cent non response in the pilot, and have "debts raised based on the ATO data"

Tough questions coming because of earlier evidence #RobodebtRC

"I'm not sure why I didn't pick that up to be honest"
Stark similarity to Ms Wilson in the wording of that explanation #RobodebtRC "Unable to explain that I'm sorry"

I predict we are likely going to hear those responses repeatedly for the rest of this evidence I'm afraid. #robodebtRC

Mr Withnell will attempt to argue 'averaging was not inevitable' according to this language.
aha he has now fallen back to the idea of an 'exception process'. Significant #RobodebtRC

"I don't think there's much of an out in the letter, Mr Withnell"
"On reflection I think you're right...and that should have been picked up. For whatever reason I didn't pick it up at the time"
Mr Scott has to level the "I suggest" of averaging
Witness: rejects
#RobodebtRC

Same charges of superficial changes and awareness of averaging put to the witness.
Witness: Certainly not my recollection and certainly not my intent
#RobodebtRC
Commissioner: you're saying Ryman/Britton completely missed a drastic change to the proposal.

You're their supervisor?
"I can't explain how I missed that I'm sorry"
#RobodebtRC

"why was this brief not progressed to the secretary"
no specific recollection. I would imagine Ms Golightly intercepted it, but "I don't recall".
Dumps on golightly broadly, but doesn't recall the discussions or the brief.
$1.2 billion like, and they do MYEFO soon
#robodebtRC

Almost impossible to tweet this without characterisation. I'll go emoji:
😵‍💫
Witness shown another document with direct reference to averaging #RobodebtRC

Witness now being asked to respond to the charge he emailed information which directly referred to averaging?
Defence is he was an unthinking vessel for other's words. The words originated with someone else.

"I don't know that I even read it"
#RobodebtRC

I'm getting addicted to the little dings that sound when @SquigglyRick blogs another entry. It's supermarket check out for scanning accountability moments #robodebtRC

And there's another
another email.
Another email.
This is painful #RobodebtRC

"There was information flying everywhere at this time"
"Do you frequently send emails where you have not satisfied the words accurate"
"There was lots of information flowing in lots of different directions"

"Numbers of people were going out on stress leave"
#robodebtRC

"I suggest to you these are either your words or words that you've adopted because you are satisfied they are accurate"
Witness now attempting a close reading, semantic analysis of the text #RobodebtRC

We end with a denial of knowledge of averaging. #RobodebtRC But now on Commissioner follow up, we hear he attended two meetings with Ministers. He said he didn't know how the system worked and he was the one who had to sit across from Tudge. "highly inappropriate" he said

Ms Hogan Doran confirming that if the pilot statistics were applied to the budget assumptions, the administrative costs were far higher for the budget measures. The budget assumptions were never adjusted. Indeed more staff were stripped out #RobodebtRC

Witness tells us that DHS failed to complete the presentation briefing the Minister on the system as no one could explain the questions or content #RobodebtRC It ended prematurely

It isn't pompous to suggest that the next panel can be described as the people who had to go and get the rule of law in this country #RobodebtRC Calm, assured, clear eyed, precise, it was their work that struck home through all turbid waters we have seen

There were many solicitors on this team including the inspirational @HollieDKerwin and @CharleyBR whose current environmental justice work is well worth the follow!! #robodebtRC

There's also the amazing Len Jaffit [not online]- who embodies many years of knowledge of social security system, an absolute encyclopaedia. However dense the guide, the law gets... life rule: you ask Len. #robodebtRC

Btw, Miles "I used a calculator" Browne is back for a second appearance. A second appearance for the right reasons, imagine. I don't know why I find the calculator thing funny, but I do. #Robodebt (he had to reverse engineer the averaging manually off Ms Masterton's ADEX)

@RowanMcRae talking about the diverse nature of legal aid support. Apart from the formal grant of legal aid, throughout this they produce accessible resources on the website. (DOD - eg they'd information ready to go post Amato faster than the Commonwealth) #RobodebtRC

McRae: No additional dedicated funding for CLCs or Legal Aid to help people navigate the scheme
(DOD - I'm afraid the opportunity cost to this win is very sad to think of. They should never have had to devote the limited resources on something so clear) #robodebtRC

"we very quickly formed the view that the scheme was unlawful...we helped some clients in the AAT...but that didn't result to significant changes to the scheme" #RobodebtRC test case strategy 'to go to the heart of lawfulness"

I love this, VLA have made sure to put "exclusion from review" into their submission. This was funnelling people away from their right to Authorised Review Officer into reassessment by frontline staff. Called out by the Ombudsman eventually after a couple years. #RobodebtRC

Btw - the thing that made me explode was ARO review stats were reportable with a defined time period. reassessments? Not on your life - no idea how long - they used to say "it's iterative, back and forth" in the senate. Captured in Robert Skinner's Monthly piece #robodebtRC

Miles bringing up that post Amato they literally issued a script to cut through the semantics and the 'what about you give us evidence" call scripts on the Services Australia frontline. Information is power guys #robodebtRC

Deanna Amato now starting about the first moment she learned of the debt that broke the programme - garnishee of the tax return she was waiting for. We haven't spent much time on that in the Commission #RobodebtRC

24th January 2017 VLA write to the Minister. they had never been told of the rollout of the scheme, first learned it from clients #RobodebtRC

They sought all the operational information I see...

Showdown at the Louisa Lawson building time! notmydebt.com.au/media-analysis…

The problem was NEIDM was the only protocol that look live, cos there was no PAYG. They were giving everything a go #RobodebtRC

Even though NEIDM didn't have key info, cos DHS had no protocol, their emissary was still denied public information by a government department.
PAYG protocol dated May 2017 is brought to the Senate inquiry by Privacy Commissioner in the end #RobodebtRC

We now know the full story from Ben Lumley if people can remember the ATO-DHS phase of this thing. If a up to date PAYG Protocol had existed, it would have been at Louisa Lawson as well anyway #robodebtRC

They finally get response to the letters on 1 May 2017. minister denies all information, basically runs a line equivalent to section 47(E)(d) FOI - you're not getting the operational blueprints etc, because it will prejudice our process #RobodebtRC They've been Justin Warren-ed

Ms Amato confirming she had reported correctly originally “to the cent”. There was actually a small underpayment owed to Ms Amato (barred by legislation) when VLA got done with DHS on this thing #RobodebtRC

Amato: "It was worth...to make a change like that was amazing...putting an end to it so other people didn't have to go through any more of those debts" #RobodebtRC

Greggery noting that the $92.06 "was the ledge on which Legal Aid held its fingers" to stop the debt getting treated similarly to Masterton. Dangling off the cliff edge of the legal system, lol #RobodebtRC

Ms McRae now noting the pressures anyone might face as a lead litigant. Ms Amato and Ms Masterton were so courageous, they didn't have to do this for themselves, they went straight to the question of lawfulness for others #RobodebtRC

Litigation meant have the debt hanging over your life which isn't a option for some of VLA's clients #RobodebtRC And Ms McRae mentions the relase of personal information as a disincentive

I endorse that point very very strongly

"the risk that a person's personal information could be released informed advice to test case litigants"
McRae says yes, they had to advise of the risk
#RobodebtRC

Browne discussing test case factors:
Ms Amato's file was secured via FOI after six weeks. The person had to have not interacted with Centrelink (DOD- because they'd try rapture it using the interaction) #RobodebtRC

Amato: "VLA really shielded me from a lot, they were amazing...ultimately we got the result and that is why I was doing it" #RobodebtRC

Now to the VLA Reform Platform. I've been looking forward to this to be honest #RobodebtRC From their website they have the quintessential VLA theme approach: here are some uncontestable, plain language goals for reform.

Transparency and accountability. Note: Ms McRae got to represent ideas like that to Sunrise breakfast TV at one point. A very memorable moment - access to justice getting that forum #RobdebtRC

Ms McRae notes it isn't VLA's role to propose a new oversight mechanism. But she says existing mechanisms failed to stop the scheme. #RobodebtRC

This appearance is reminding me what it was like to see Joel Townshend and all the others I mentioned already at work on and off on this. People who no matter what wildness was going on, fulfilled their professional role with assurance, principle and courage frankly #RobodebtRC

"Lawfulness should be at the heart of government policy"
Fair, accurate and lawful is said one last time. Almost like an amazing communication team came up with it @AlmaMistry
#RobodebtRC

Miles gets a chance to say something. And he uses the words of one of his clients. "I was grappling with homeless, trauma...this all happened at a time I needed support...I had to fight in circumstances where I had no power no control, no ability to pass back" #RobodebtRC

Commissioner draws attention to the fact that Legal Aid as an institution: provided an indemnity for costs. That embodied a huge commitment to do this for Australian public. Commissioner mulling some costs reform? I hope #RobodebtRC

"You were the one's who got out ahead of it" [compared to other possible bodies]
McRae notes the role of the intake team, call fielding abilities

And the dedicated social security practice.

(If I could put that last bit in lights I would) #RobodebtRC

The Commissioner ends by noting that Deanna Amato's name has "entered into history" #robodebtRC

I mistyped some tweets there obviously combo of wanting to take it in and record it! @maximumwelfare will have it. Today was a better day than others, to be remembered #RobodebtRC

This was a moment: the account of people up against most awesome power of government. an unaccountable power we must never see again after this Commission

https://twitter.com/SquigglyRick/status/1628962521800642560?s=20

It is now time for the very first pilot edition of TV show concept I want to pitch:
Holmes & Hanks
In this first edition these two erudite legends will reflect on robodebt.
Welcome to Holmes & Hanks
#RobodebtRC
Hanks has a tie so stylish it routs even Greggery's

Hanks recounting Katie Miller as the first person who approached him about robodebt. She is an administrative law legend and author of the wonderful piece on 'robodebt communities' #RobodebtRC austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdo…

Hanks talking about Green v Daniels - a 70s which he took on inflexible application of a policy in the social security system that is taught in every administrative law course in Australia. #robodebtRC

Greggery is enjoying this immensely.

Law lecturers watching:
Yes... We get to put this into our subjects
#robodebtRC
Hanks is incredibly charismatic: humble, enthusiastic intellect.

Viewers: this is the generous man who was reduced to accusing the government of bad faith.

Hanks "It's a very long Act", that's a hefty understatement. 1263 sections (excluding the administration act/savings/extras)
Hanks is saying he felt in the dark on details until the Ombudsman. That was a huge factor in engaging in 2017.
Uses term "imagined debt"
#robodebtRC

Ain't no party like an administrative law party @SquigglyRick
100 people on the day. But there were names as we know.

We are working page by page through an administrative law conference programme. Unprecedented areas!
#RobodebtRC

Hanks wrote to Ms McLeod at the Ombo before the conference!

He sent her questions about the legislation he's reading off his phone in real time!
#RobodebtRC

"I wondered if I missed something in the report"
Maybe the bits about the legislation, asked for response 'off the record of course'. #RobodebtRC
Greggery: *not asking for the response. But there was a response. If Ms McLeod is happy to tell us, you're happy?
Hanks: yes.

This is building to the moment the esteemable Mr Hanks comes to court for a meeting of minds, an exchange of reasoned justifications. And:

Meets a vanished debt
#RobodebtRC

These two leading barristers are now discussing the 'information and belief' affidavits and their inadmissibility in the eventual action.

Absolute scenes here for geeks. #RobodebtRC

Hanks is still obviously exasperated at the efforts of the Commonwealth to evade. Laughs at the ludicriousness of bringing it down to a zero. #RobodebtRC

Directions hearing: "I said the sequence of events suggested that the Commonwealth was not acting in good faith"
boom.
Commonwealth said his point was without substance #robodebtRC

"The Commonwealth was doing its best to ensure there would be no progression"
Here comes the $92.06 that stopped it all #RobodebtRC

Hanks exasperated at meeting Ms Amato who had been garnishee with zero contact. They attacked the garnisheed as well. #RobodebtRC they tried to zeroed Amato by getting payslips for her, but 'a legal event' had happened with the garnishee, that could not be scrubbed.

Hanks & holmes reflecting on the costs attaching to compulsory notices.
Hanks outlines what it takes to issue the letter.
Commissioner: "Hence the brilliant idea"

Two advanced intellects rinsing robodebt #robodebtRC

Hanks: "the commonwealth was running out of energy...they could have simply paid it"
But then he says as a matter of principle they didnt want to.
That's my view: it was politically untenable to give interest given the error rate in the thing. #robodebtRC

Like handing over interest carries an admission of past unlawful retention of money. It would doom that crucial narrative that they were overwriting debts, reassessing them. "fresh information" etc #RobodebtRC

Aww, Hanks, says he feels it was ultimately the Solicitor General who they listened to. not him. That's too self-deprecating I think, the S-G was asked because you Mr Hanks #robodebtRC