It’s Mar. 24 and Day 43 of the Proud Boys trial. I’ll be live-tweeting here and on Lawfare: bit.ly/3QKlKii. Judge Kelly will attempt to resume hearing evidence after what may have been another tempest in a teapot. ...
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... First, apologies to people trying to access some of the video exhibits I’ve linked to on YouTube. My acct has been shut down for a week due to “community standards” violations stemming from a exhibit excerpted from def Joe Biggs’ “Civil War” podcast and, perhaps, also ...
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two exhibits with excerpts from def Enrique Tarrio's interviews with Alex Jones. ...
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As you know, the trial was derailed again on Wed when the defense raised new allegations of grievous wrongdoing. I’ll try to provide a nutshell summary of the dispute but some pieces of it are still fuzzy.
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The issue was triggered on Wed when def Enrique Tarrio’s counsel told the govt that he planned to call a certain woman to testify the next day (Thurs). The govt then told the defense that she’d been a CHS (confidential human source, i.e., informant) for a period.
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The defense team then accused the govt of having both failed to abide by rules allegedly requiring the govt to have disclosed this earlier and, more seriously, having used the CHS to, in effect, spy on the defense team ...
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... and defendants in egregious (bad) ways. Specifically, the defs claimed the woman had been in contact with one or more defense counsel in the case, had participated in prayer meetings with one more of the defs’ families, ...
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... and had engaged in discussions with one of the defs’ family members about replacing one of the defendant’s lawyers. ...
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Yesterday the govt responded (below) that the defendants’ “entire premise [for complaint] is baseless.” It said it possessed exactly zero notes, records, or recordings relating to the defense team ...
bit.ly/3lI70W3
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bit.ly/3lI70W3
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... because it never asked the CHS about the defs. The timeline goes roughly like this, per declaration of an FBI agent (below). In fall 2019 (so well before J6), the woman the agent calls CHS-SA voluntarily reported to the FBI’s San Antonio, TX, ...
bit.ly/3K54S40
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bit.ly/3K54S40
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office (that’s apparently what the “SA” stands for) some info about 2 individuals who later became defs in this case. Part of that info related to her alleged “status as a victim.” ...
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... In Apr 2021 (so now after J6), the FBI “retained” the woman as a CHS. Some of the info CHS-SA provided related to J6 events. (The FBI Agent says that the info the CHS provided relating to J6 was provided to the defense, but doesn’t specify when.) ...
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... On 12/17/22 the defs in this case gave the govt a list of 87 potential witnesses. CHS-SA’s “nickname (but not her true name)” was on the list. The govt learned “at some point” that that ...
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... this person “had a CHS relationship with the FBI,” but “her reporting to the FBI did not appear on its face to pertain to these charged defendants.” (The govt has now provided all her reports ...
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... to Judge Kelly under seal and ex parte—that is, they are not available to defense counsel or defendants.) The FBI says it never “tasked the CHS” with gathering info on the defendants or their counsel. ...
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... “[A]lthough the FBI was generally aware” that the CHS was active in assisting J6 defendants and their families, including with fundraising and protesting against their conditions of confinement ...
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... “the FBI intentionally chose to never ask the CHS about her relationship with” any of the defs or their counsel. ...
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... Finally, on 1/9/23 the CHS-SA told the FBI that she had received a subpoena to testify as a defense witness in this case and had been deposed by the defense. The FBI agent says that’s the first the FBI knew that she had been “identified as a defense witness.” ...
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... [That’s hard to square with footnote 1 of the govt’s memo which says “the govt learned at some point” that CHS-SA had a relationship with the FBI but thought it related to J6 defs other than these defs.] ...
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... In any event, the FBI terminated the woman’s status as a CHS nine days later, on 1/18/23.
Finally, on 3/21/23, the govt says, Enrique Tarrio’s counsel told the govt it “(1) intended to call the CHS and ...
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Finally, on 3/21/23, the govt says, Enrique Tarrio’s counsel told the govt it “(1) intended to call the CHS and ...
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... and (2) that they intended to elicit evidence related to reporting the CHS had provided to the FBI.” Now that’s really puzzling, because it suggests that Tarrio’s counsel already knew that the woman had been a CHS—in which case, what’s this all about?
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... (But atty Sabino Jauregui (Tarrio) told Judge Kelly at a hearing yesterday, covered by @Brandi_Buchman below, that they only found out she was a CHS on Wed.) ...
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https://twitter.com/Brandi_Buchman/status/1638998437474586628
... Furthermore, the govt goes on to say that it wasn’t until Tarrio’s counsel told them they were really calling the woman as a witness that any discovery obligations kicked in. Finally, the govt adds that it only learned *from the defense team* that ...
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... CHS-SA had had any of the contacts with the defendants & defense team that they’re complaining about. ...
Parties had until 7am this morning to file additional requests/demands relating to this episode, which filings could be under seal. Judge Kelly expected at ~9am.
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Parties had until 7am this morning to file additional requests/demands relating to this episode, which filings could be under seal. Judge Kelly expected at ~9am.
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There may be a delay this morning, we're told. Might have to do with a glitch in getting the defendants (who are detained) transferred to court.
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Judge Kelly is on the bench.
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Judge: Team Tarrio teed up an issue in emails, but I think it makes sense to push that off until after we move forward with Tarrio's witness before the jury.
Nayib Hassan and Sabino Jauregui (both Tarrio) are pushing hard to call a different witness first ...
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Nayib Hassan and Sabino Jauregui (both Tarrio) are pushing hard to call a different witness first ...
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even tho the different witness (apparently CHS-SA) requires resolving some preliminary issues. Tarrio's team seems to fear that CHS-SA may get cold feet if we don't get done with her first, so they want to call her first. ...
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AUSA McCullough: there are issues that needs to be resolved in terms of scope of direct and scope of cross of this witness, including whether any of these allegations of govt misconduct are going to be raised & issues about the witness's "status." Let's come back to this ...
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after we excuse the jury [today]. We don't believe defense has complied with their [discovery obligations with respect to CHS-SA]. The way to make best use of jury's time is to put the [uncontroversial] witness on the stand, then release jury, and then discuss all this.
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Judge: if we plowed ahead right now i foresee a million unresolved issues that would make this very slow. Your witness is under subpoena and are not allowed to absent themselves.
Jauregui (Tarrio): this is a problem of the govt's own making. For them to inform me day ...
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Jauregui (Tarrio): this is a problem of the govt's own making. For them to inform me day ...
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before her testimony that she's a CHS threw my [plans] into disarray. ...
Judge: call the [uncontroversial] witness first, then we'll take up this one.
Hassan (also for Tarrio) now still arguing to put on CHS-SA first. "we're being prejudiced now."
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Judge: call the [uncontroversial] witness first, then we'll take up this one.
Hassan (also for Tarrio) now still arguing to put on CHS-SA first. "we're being prejudiced now."
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Judge: we left court yesterday with an expectation of how we'd proceed today and [we're going to stick with that].
Nick Smith (def Ethan Nordean) doesn't want jury to be instructed that Nordean has rested because there's still a possibility Nordean might opt to testify.
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Nick Smith (def Ethan Nordean) doesn't want jury to be instructed that Nordean has rested because there's still a possibility Nordean might opt to testify.
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Carmen Hernandez (def Zach Rehl) says she plans to tell the jury about govt misconduct and defense doesn't have to preview her questions to the govt before they call their witnesses. She also emphasizes that media [hooplah] over CHS-SA could frighten her away. ...
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Judge bringing in the jury.
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Nayib Hassan (Tarrio) calls def Enrique Tarrio's 1st witness (4th defense witness):
George Mesa (a/k/a Asher Mesa; Asher Barkoziba)
i'm a convert to judaism ... converted over 24 yrs ago ... in Israel i'm Asher. ... Barkoziba is reference to failed anicent messianic attempt
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George Mesa (a/k/a Asher Mesa; Asher Barkoziba)
i'm a convert to judaism ... converted over 24 yrs ago ... in Israel i'm Asher. ... Barkoziba is reference to failed anicent messianic attempt
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i went to rabbinical school in Israel. since 2009 i've been a rabbi. lives in Florida.
born in NJ, grew up in Miami Beach. stationed in Ft Bragg, Ft Benning, lived in Israel 5 yrs.
there's famous saying, 2 jews, 3 opinions. many people dislike things i teach--mainly
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born in NJ, grew up in Miami Beach. stationed in Ft Bragg, Ft Benning, lived in Israel 5 yrs.
there's famous saying, 2 jews, 3 opinions. many people dislike things i teach--mainly
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proselytizing.
jews are given right to return. went to israel to finish rabbinical & get degree in computer science. have bachelors in computer science. spent 2 yrs in yeshiva. work in computer science.
served in US Army.
about 3 yrs
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jews are given right to return. went to israel to finish rabbinical & get degree in computer science. have bachelors in computer science. spent 2 yrs in yeshiva. work in computer science.
served in US Army.
about 3 yrs
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... rec'd general discharge ... i terminated my service short. i'm not eligible for benefits. GI Bill or VA benefits.
i live in south florida now. broward county, ft. lauderdale.
i'm a network admin
my own company
i had a synagogue for 2 yrs in N. Miami Beach.
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i live in south florida now. broward county, ft. lauderdale.
i'm a network admin
my own company
i had a synagogue for 2 yrs in N. Miami Beach.
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i teach online. teach hebrew, judaism, zionist history.
don't make much money from that.
subpoeaned to testify today.
flew up here, stayed at hotel. not compensated.
i identify as right of center [politically]. i believe in the constitution. love my country. i'll do what
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don't make much money from that.
subpoeaned to testify today.
flew up here, stayed at hotel. not compensated.
i identify as right of center [politically]. i believe in the constitution. love my country. i'll do what
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i need to do to protect other americans.
i became PB. during time of riots, i saw that only group protecting americans were the PBs.
found a documentary on Vice about them. contacted them. around June/July 2020.
my views are consistent with PBs regarding constitution & love
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i became PB. during time of riots, i saw that only group protecting americans were the PBs.
found a documentary on Vice about them. contacted them. around June/July 2020.
my views are consistent with PBs regarding constitution & love
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of country.
i was 3d degree PB on J6. was in the Vice City chapter in South FL. Enrique belonged to that chapter.
not a PB today.
right now the org doesn't really exist. we turned on each other. i was booted out of the club. many PBs tried to distance selves from
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i was 3d degree PB on J6. was in the Vice City chapter in South FL. Enrique belonged to that chapter.
not a PB today.
right now the org doesn't really exist. we turned on each other. i was booted out of the club. many PBs tried to distance selves from
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anything having to do with PBs. my disassociation occurred officially about 4 mos ago.
ideology of PBs: love of country. we're reactionary movement. dont go out looking for trouble. protect americans exercising right to support a certain candidate but ...
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ideology of PBs: love of country. we're reactionary movement. dont go out looking for trouble. protect americans exercising right to support a certain candidate but ...
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we're being attacked when returning to their vehicles.
PBs [had open political ideology]
there were actually democrats within the PBs.
i saw the PBs as the only ones fighting back. i considered them in this climate as an ally.
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PBs [had open political ideology]
there were actually democrats within the PBs.
i saw the PBs as the only ones fighting back. i considered them in this climate as an ally.
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Hassan now showing Mesa an exhibit.
It's "the constitution and bylaws of the PBs"
Mesa: these are the tenets of the club. what makes up it's ideology.
every PB had access to this document
one paragraph: "pro-free speech": against censorship. against people being cancelled
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It's "the constitution and bylaws of the PBs"
Mesa: these are the tenets of the club. what makes up it's ideology.
every PB had access to this document
one paragraph: "pro-free speech": against censorship. against people being cancelled
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Now seeing "eligibility and non-discrimination"
Mesa: we did not discriminate based on race or gender or even political ideology as long as it didn't embrace left-wing [extremism] ... white nationalists, white supremacists or alt-rights are "prohibited"...
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Mesa: we did not discriminate based on race or gender or even political ideology as long as it didn't embrace left-wing [extremism] ... white nationalists, white supremacists or alt-rights are "prohibited"...
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they were kicked out--or should have been. any large organization has what I call riff-raff.
doesnt discriminate by sexual orientation. i met homosexuals in PBs and considered them as brothers.
i did independent journalist. i'd go to rallies. all i saw was support
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doesnt discriminate by sexual orientation. i met homosexuals in PBs and considered them as brothers.
i did independent journalist. i'd go to rallies. all i saw was support
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i felt i had to document that the representation media gave on the whole topic was wrong. the average minority felt very comfortable around PBs because we put our lives in danger to protect them.
Tarrio & I were friendly. not very close, but friendly.
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Tarrio & I were friendly. not very close, but friendly.
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never met Biggs.
never met Nordean. may have run into him.
same with Rehl & Pezzola.
With Tarrio--outside of issues not pertaining to the club or events, i didn't talk to him like a buddy. we worked together as patriots.
i think he had great leadership skills but
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never met Nordean. may have run into him.
same with Rehl & Pezzola.
With Tarrio--outside of issues not pertaining to the club or events, i didn't talk to him like a buddy. we worked together as patriots.
i think he had great leadership skills but
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was a mixed bag in terms of enforcing the tenets.
sometimes you have to appease a certain segment of the riff-raff in effort to move forward but for most part he was a good leader.
my name in telegram chats was Ash Barkoziba.
belonged to PB security chat, MOSD,
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sometimes you have to appease a certain segment of the riff-raff in effort to move forward but for most part he was a good leader.
my name in telegram chats was Ash Barkoziba.
belonged to PB security chat, MOSD,
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MOSD-Ops 2, DC Streetsweepers. Boots on Ground.
i did not agree with everything in these chats. it wasn't common but when dealing with such large group some use abrasive language i didn't feel depicted what average PB believed. racial slurs, antisemitic language
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i did not agree with everything in these chats. it wasn't common but when dealing with such large group some use abrasive language i didn't feel depicted what average PB believed. racial slurs, antisemitic language
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i called that out. felt they were misrepresenting the club.
i try to call out things i see as incorrect, in this case racist. there was a handful of individs who tried to fit in by using language they shouldnt be using in a chat created to protect PBs. MOSD was ...
i try to call out things i see as incorrect, in this case racist. there was a handful of individs who tried to fit in by using language they shouldnt be using in a chat created to protect PBs. MOSD was ...
ministry of *self* defense ...
[what did Tarrio mean by "focus" here]
Enrique's main focus in arranging MOSD was to protect PBs. he felt very responsible ... if someone would get hurt--
sustained.
Tarrio never told me any of this. when we joined the chat that was what was ...
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[what did Tarrio mean by "focus" here]
Enrique's main focus in arranging MOSD was to protect PBs. he felt very responsible ... if someone would get hurt--
sustained.
Tarrio never told me any of this. when we joined the chat that was what was ...
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stated on top ... whole purpose of MOSD was to prevent PBs from getting stabbed.
He felt that this was something that should be handled in different chat room, not this one created for self defense.
[now focusing on Blackbeard: "this group has a mission"
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He felt that this was something that should be handled in different chat room, not this one created for self defense.
[now focusing on Blackbeard: "this group has a mission"
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the mission was to protect PBs. had nothing to do with disrupting the vote.
[why would individs that expressed white supremacist views not be kicked out of organization?]
i don't know.
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[why would individs that expressed white supremacist views not be kicked out of organization?]
i don't know.
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Hassan now talking about the PB hand gesture symbol? [ sort of OK symbol]
no one really knew. used as form of satire. media said it was racist, so we did it even more--to [antagonize 7 defy them]
i used that symbol. it's a buddhist symbol as well. i do not have alt-right view
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no one really knew. used as form of satire. media said it was racist, so we did it even more--to [antagonize 7 defy them]
i used that symbol. it's a buddhist symbol as well. i do not have alt-right view
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i wouldn't join a club that was racist in any way, esp against jews.
Tarrio did not like confrontation within the org. that's what made him a good leader. the objective was more important--to protect other PBs, in this instance.
i was in PBs in Nov 2020.
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Tarrio did not like confrontation within the org. that's what made him a good leader. the objective was more important--to protect other PBs, in this instance.
i was in PBs in Nov 2020.
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membership grew after the debate. more people familiar with us. grew exponentially.
i was not involved in vetting then. after J6 i became involved.
participated in Nov 2020 rally in DC. mood was disorder. 1st major rally in DC. trying to keep us focused--keep america safe
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i was not involved in vetting then. after J6 i became involved.
participated in Nov 2020 rally in DC. mood was disorder. 1st major rally in DC. trying to keep us focused--keep america safe
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rally in daytime. we were supporting our candidate. when they went back to hotel rooms, then news started reporting about news like antifa targeting conservatives walking back to their cars. incident at the Willard. we received a text that we were going to aid the situation.
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there was rally in december too. there were a lot more PBs. it was an official PB event. PBs were marching. a little more prepared with protective gear. saw that antifa was carrying knives. people were encouraged to wear something--cutting board--so wouldn't get stabbed.
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it was lot more organized in dec but some PBs went their own way. over 500-800 antifa guys, only 350 PBs. we were fearful some PBs would be outnumbered and harmed. PBs maintained a defensive posture. we were there only for defense--defending other americans. i would never ...
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... chase after Antifa. PBs would actively seek antifa after we were aware of reports of them targeting americans. weren't there looking for antifa.
[did feelings toward law enforcement change between Nov & Dec rallies?] no
after dec rally, didn't change either ...
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[did feelings toward law enforcement change between Nov & Dec rallies?] no
after dec rally, didn't change either ...
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standard was always back the blue. we always thanked officers for their service. but in many of these rallies we saw that certain cops were aiding antifa. so we shouldn't just say that every officer is guiltless.
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support for law enforcement never changed in club, including support for MPD in DC.
now discussing stabbings on 12/12/20.
MOSD was created as a result. i belonged to it. to prevent what happened in the previous event. PBs should be able to go home safely.
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now discussing stabbings on 12/12/20.
MOSD was created as a result. i belonged to it. to prevent what happened in the previous event. PBs should be able to go home safely.
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participated in zoom meetings for MOSD. purpose of MOSD was not to find 'real men' to confront police. purpose was to thin out those who couldn't control their behavior & alcohol & only have those who were somewhat upright representing the organization.
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Hassan now showing an exhibit.
[This is the MOSD application form we've seen before.]
do you affirm you will not use drugs or alcohol during an event? ...
are you willing to [devote yourself to] safety of your brothers?
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[This is the MOSD application form we've seen before.]
do you affirm you will not use drugs or alcohol during an event? ...
are you willing to [devote yourself to] safety of your brothers?
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if you wanted to be part of this initiative, had to fill out this form.
"4. I will always act in self-defense & will never initiate a confrontation."
we never start the fight. only there in a reactionary [posture].
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"4. I will always act in self-defense & will never initiate a confrontation."
we never start the fight. only there in a reactionary [posture].
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[were there issues you had with other members of MOSD?]
yes. i disagreed on not going in colors.
Hassan showing him an exhibit from MOSD-Main (Members group).
there was mass confusion 2 previous times we went to DC in not knowing who was who. i felt if there wasn't a
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yes. i disagreed on not going in colors.
Hassan showing him an exhibit from MOSD-Main (Members group).
there was mass confusion 2 previous times we went to DC in not knowing who was who. i felt if there wasn't a
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marker to distinguish PBs from non-PBs, same thing would occur.
Tarrio says this is just the way club operates--we take the cue from local chapter, which was saying not to wear colors.
i came to DC on J6. i was supposed to provide security for Latinos for Trump.
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Tarrio says this is just the way club operates--we take the cue from local chapter, which was saying not to wear colors.
i came to DC on J6. i was supposed to provide security for Latinos for Trump.
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didn't participate in PBs march. didn't meet at Wash Monument.
Latinos for Trump is exactly as name states. Org that encourages Latinos to enter the Republican party & support Trump as candidate. did it on behalf of PBs. i don't have a security license.
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Latinos for Trump is exactly as name states. Org that encourages Latinos to enter the Republican party & support Trump as candidate. did it on behalf of PBs. i don't have a security license.
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we weren't carrying any weapons. just escorting bianca and other members from point A to point B. Bianca gracia.
arranged travel about week before J6. stayed at the Phoenix [Park]. no comms with Tarrio before. arrived J5. i think Tarrio was in Baltimore by then.
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arranged travel about week before J6. stayed at the Phoenix [Park]. no comms with Tarrio before. arrived J5. i think Tarrio was in Baltimore by then.
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Latinos for Trump had acquired a stage. mainly regarding covid 19 & possible tampering with ballot box. my job was to escort them to and from hotel. Tarrio was supposed to speak at the LfT rally.
Hassan now showing him the agenda for the day. shared in PBs security chat
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Hassan now showing him the agenda for the day. shared in PBs security chat
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[the document is dated J4]
agenda was to meet at 9am on Supreme Court steps. ... 10am to noon at Freedom Rally."
that's when Tarrio was supposed to speak (10-noon)
Hassan now showing a publicity flier for that rally. [address is 300 First Street NE.]
Tarrio not shown ...
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agenda was to meet at 9am on Supreme Court steps. ... 10am to noon at Freedom Rally."
that's when Tarrio was supposed to speak (10-noon)
Hassan now showing a publicity flier for that rally. [address is 300 First Street NE.]
Tarrio not shown ...
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on the flier. but Bianca told us in the chat--Tarrio and Bianca are undetachable -- that Tarrio would speak. flier does says "and other patriots" would speak.
I went to Capitol on J6 around maybe 1:45pm. Did not run into PBs there. Communications--cell phones weren't
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I went to Capitol on J6 around maybe 1:45pm. Did not run into PBs there. Communications--cell phones weren't
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working. i couldn't call my wife. received no instructions from boots on ground or anything else. not carrying a radio. only way i knew about event was media was covering it when we walked in bianca's room. i did not go into capitol. when i got there, no barricades ...
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... or law enforcement blocking entrance to grounds.
i was there fro about 25 min with other members of LfT and then walked back to hotel. did not observe trespass signs or bike racks limiting where i could walk. returned to capitol a 2d time ...
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i was there fro about 25 min with other members of LfT and then walked back to hotel. did not observe trespass signs or bike racks limiting where i could walk. returned to capitol a 2d time ...
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i began to interview people and ask them about what they thought of PBs. i was doing independent journalism. we had a web site called PB . TV ... so people who'd never met PBs to find out what other americans really feel about the PBs.
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interviewed people of various racial and ethnic backgrounds. mainly people from different ethnicities, especially spanish-speaking. my family's from Colombia, and i speak spanish.
purpose of MOSD was to act in self-defense.
objective: to keep other PBs safe.
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purpose of MOSD was to act in self-defense.
objective: to keep other PBs safe.
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purpose was not to fight law enforcement.
there were measures to insert order in the PBs, how to march, stay together, not go off on own and get ambushed.
purpose was not to obstruct an official proceeding. not to stop certification. not to stop peaceful transfer of power
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there were measures to insert order in the PBs, how to march, stay together, not go off on own and get ambushed.
purpose was not to obstruct an official proceeding. not to stop certification. not to stop peaceful transfer of power
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purpose of rally was to peacefully demonstrate.
Hassan is done.
sidebar
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Hassan is done.
sidebar
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Now taking 10-minute morning break.
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Judge Kelly back.
AUSA McCullough beginning cross of Tarrio witness George Mesa (a/k/a Rabbi Barkizoba).
McC eliciting that Mesa joined in 2020 because he was interested in doing something about issues in America. somebody not afraid to get hands dirty.
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AUSA McCullough beginning cross of Tarrio witness George Mesa (a/k/a Rabbi Barkizoba).
McC eliciting that Mesa joined in 2020 because he was interested in doing something about issues in America. somebody not afraid to get hands dirty.
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McC: that sometimes includes political violence?
witness: yes.
McC: joined because of riots?
the burning of bldgs.
McC: relating to racial injustice?
that's how it was presented.
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witness: yes.
McC: joined because of riots?
the burning of bldgs.
McC: relating to racial injustice?
that's how it was presented.
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McC: the PBs who attended rallies were the rally boys?
the activists, yes.
McC: you were part of that group, right?
yes.
McC: that was new development?
tenets never really changed. times of peace & times of less peace. even those who joined as a drinking club knew they had
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the activists, yes.
McC: you were part of that group, right?
yes.
McC: that was new development?
tenets never really changed. times of peace & times of less peace. even those who joined as a drinking club knew they had
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a duty to protect americans. teh club was always polarized between people who wanted it to be a fratrnity, but some were willing to stand in harms way to do what was right.
McC: and you were one of those?
yes
McC: you were in vice city chapter--miami--Tarrio's home chapter?
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McC: and you were one of those?
yes
McC: you were in vice city chapter--miami--Tarrio's home chapter?
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yes.
McC: PBs saw themselves in war with antifa?
yes
McC: civil war with antifa?
peaceful civil war, yes.
McC: peaceful civil war?
yes.
McC: you talked about reactionary conduct. that was going out and looking for antifa?
only after the fact, after they attacked americans
/86
McC: PBs saw themselves in war with antifa?
yes
McC: civil war with antifa?
peaceful civil war, yes.
McC: peaceful civil war?
yes.
McC: you talked about reactionary conduct. that was going out and looking for antifa?
only after the fact, after they attacked americans
/86
McC: after you heard about violence by antifa, PBs would take to streets and seek out violence with Antifa, right?
Hernandez (Rehl): objection, may we be heard?
sidebar.
/87
Hernandez (Rehl): objection, may we be heard?
sidebar.
/87
McC: PBs viewed themselves as in a war with antifa?
yes
McC: growth in membership in nov 2020 after president mentioned them during debate?
yes
McC: in that exchange Trump indicated he knew who PBs were?
i think so.
McC: you viewed Trump as ally of PBs?
objection relevance
/88
yes
McC: growth in membership in nov 2020 after president mentioned them during debate?
yes
McC: in that exchange Trump indicated he knew who PBs were?
i think so.
McC: you viewed Trump as ally of PBs?
objection relevance
/88
sidebar
/89
/89
McC: you & vice city PBs were motivated by defending election integrity?
not defending election integrity. we didn't have plans to alter the conclusion of whatever may have been decided upon.
McC: you believed election had been stolen?
not necessarily. avg person could...
/90
not defending election integrity. we didn't have plans to alter the conclusion of whatever may have been decided upon.
McC: you believed election had been stolen?
not necessarily. avg person could...
/90
disagree about whether there was tampering, but reasonable person could disagree about whether that affected the result.
McC: entire reason for your attendance at the 3 rallies was motivated by election tampering?
not exactly. we wanted to show support hoping
/91
McC: entire reason for your attendance at the 3 rallies was motivated by election tampering?
not exactly. we wanted to show support hoping
/91
that Pence would initiate some sort of recount.
McC: sought to keep Donald Trump in power, correct.
no.
McC: trump was rightful winner of election?
i do. but we were going to abide by whatever was decided upon.
McC: traveled with Tarrio to Nov rally?
yes
McC: private plane?
/92
McC: sought to keep Donald Trump in power, correct.
no.
McC: trump was rightful winner of election?
i do. but we were going to abide by whatever was decided upon.
McC: traveled with Tarrio to Nov rally?
yes
McC: private plane?
/92
i believe so.
McC: that was Tarrio?
that's where we were at, yes.
McC: you follow Tarrio on parler?
i wasn't very active on Parler, so no.
McC: you followed Tarrio's acct?
i dont remember
McC: Tarrio posted "can of whoopass in route to DC"?
sustained
/93
McC: that was Tarrio?
that's where we were at, yes.
McC: you follow Tarrio on parler?
i wasn't very active on Parler, so no.
McC: you followed Tarrio's acct?
i dont remember
McC: Tarrio posted "can of whoopass in route to DC"?
sustained
/93
McC: spoke to Tarrio on plane?
no. he was either sleeping or on laptop whole time.
McC now showing witness an exhibit. It's a video.
Jauregui/Hassan (Tarrio): objection
sidebar
/94
no. he was either sleeping or on laptop whole time.
McC now showing witness an exhibit. It's a video.
Jauregui/Hassan (Tarrio): objection
sidebar
/94
now showing video:
[PB Gilbert Fonticoba is making a PB hand gesture ... now PB Gabriel Garcia making gesture ... [[i can't hear audio]] the witness is there...."Pedro" (Homelander Q-Tip) ... Chris ...]
McC: all were later members of MOSD?
not sure.
/95
[PB Gilbert Fonticoba is making a PB hand gesture ... now PB Gabriel Garcia making gesture ... [[i can't hear audio]] the witness is there...."Pedro" (Homelander Q-Tip) ... Chris ...]
McC: all were later members of MOSD?
not sure.
/95
McC: when you arrived in DC on 11/14 you were assigned to do security?
yes. then we went back to hotels. got text that people were being harmed in streets. there was video.
McC: you put on gear?
same gear wearing during daytime.
McC: went out to find antifa?
went to prevent
/96
yes. then we went back to hotels. got text that people were being harmed in streets. there was video.
McC: you put on gear?
same gear wearing during daytime.
McC: went out to find antifa?
went to prevent
/96
people from getting hurt.
McC: "chasing antifa corner to corner"?
reason we were chasing them was cops were blocking our access. ... we were tryiing to confront these individuals.
McC: police were attempting to keep you from antifa?
police were trying to keep them from us
/97
McC: "chasing antifa corner to corner"?
reason we were chasing them was cops were blocking our access. ... we were tryiing to confront these individuals.
McC: police were attempting to keep you from antifa?
police were trying to keep them from us
/97
antifa were the ones with weapons. i think police were looking out for us.
McC showing Mesa/Barkizoba an exhibit:
McC: PBs sought to get at Antifa for approxmately 2 hrs
both trying to get at each other. PBs finally got thru police line. 3 minute fight.
/98
McC showing Mesa/Barkizoba an exhibit:
McC: PBs sought to get at Antifa for approxmately 2 hrs
both trying to get at each other. PBs finally got thru police line. 3 minute fight.
/98
perhaps 25 PBs out of maybe 150
objection (Hernandez/Rehl) overruled
vast majority of PBs did not engage in violence that night.
McC: after returning from Nov rally there were discussions among Vice City PBs?
yes.
McC: Vice City PBs celebrated the violence?
objection
/99
objection (Hernandez/Rehl) overruled
vast majority of PBs did not engage in violence that night.
McC: after returning from Nov rally there were discussions among Vice City PBs?
yes.
McC: Vice City PBs celebrated the violence?
objection
/99
overruled
yes, there was fair bit of gloating. proud to inflict violence on individuals inflicting violence on other americans.
McC: the gloating was in a Telegram channel that included Fonticoba, Garcia, & Tarrio?
yes, we were all in the same chat. the chapter main chat.
/100
yes, there was fair bit of gloating. proud to inflict violence on individuals inflicting violence on other americans.
McC: the gloating was in a Telegram channel that included Fonticoba, Garcia, & Tarrio?
yes, we were all in the same chat. the chapter main chat.
/100
I'd say from miami crowd you had maybe 6-7 who went. 2 or 3 of them were publicizing what they did.
McC: celebrating?
yes, celebrating some sort of achievement--get a lot of lockerroom talk.
McC: you returned to DC in dec 2020.
yes
McC: discussion of how to prepare?
yes
/101
McC: celebrating?
yes, celebrating some sort of achievement--get a lot of lockerroom talk.
McC: you returned to DC in dec 2020.
yes
McC: discussion of how to prepare?
yes
/101
McC: programming radios? protective gear?
yes yes
McC: 2 PBs got stabbed that evening?
yes
McC: you were present?
around 50 yds away
McC: PBs beginning to get paranoid?
yes. there was a report that Antifa sent agents to attack Tarrio.
McC: there was an individual walking
/102
yes yes
McC: 2 PBs got stabbed that evening?
yes
McC: you were present?
around 50 yds away
McC: PBs beginning to get paranoid?
yes. there was a report that Antifa sent agents to attack Tarrio.
McC: there was an individual walking
/102
down the street & he was suspected of antifa?
there were a few people. there were 2 stabbing events.
each stabbing had at least one individual carrying a knife?
McC: the individual felt threatened by PBs?
objection
i didn't see with my own eyes the incident. i saw ...
/103
there were a few people. there were 2 stabbing events.
each stabbing had at least one individual carrying a knife?
McC: the individual felt threatened by PBs?
objection
i didn't see with my own eyes the incident. i saw ...
/103
there was alcohol being misused. that's why we took measures next time. but yes, people were bored, and stabbings occurred.
McC showing Mesa/Barkizoba an exhibit.
McC: the PBs confronted him?
yes
McC: he was attempting to defend himself?
yes
McC: he pulled out a knife?
/104
McC showing Mesa/Barkizoba an exhibit.
McC: the PBs confronted him?
yes
McC: he was attempting to defend himself?
yes
McC: he pulled out a knife?
/104
didn't see the incident
sustained
McC: your understanding that the person had been confronted by the PBs?
sustained.
McC moves certain lines of the exhibit into evidence.
objection
[Judge reserves ruling]
/105
sustained
McC: your understanding that the person had been confronted by the PBs?
sustained.
McC moves certain lines of the exhibit into evidence.
objection
[Judge reserves ruling]
/105
McC: and based on what you've heard, you didn't understand that individual to be Antifa, right?
objection
sustained
sidebar
/106
objection
sustained
sidebar
/106
McC: you were standing in the street that evening?
yes
McC: when commotion took place you focused your attention on it?
not necessarily. didn't find out on stabbing till after the fact. [objection overruled] people were saying someone got stabbed.
McC: in material you just
/107
yes
McC: when commotion took place you focused your attention on it?
not necessarily. didn't find out on stabbing till after the fact. [objection overruled] people were saying someone got stabbed.
McC: in material you just
/107
reviewed, how did you come to learn about the circumstances surrounding that night?
objection overruled
from what people were telling me there. don't remember who. another PB most likely.
McC: after dec rally you were selected for MOSD?
yes
McC: invited into MOSD chat?
yes
/108
objection overruled
from what people were telling me there. don't remember who. another PB most likely.
McC: after dec rally you were selected for MOSD?
yes
McC: invited into MOSD chat?
yes
/108
McC: and into an MOSD vetting chat?
no
McC showing him an exhibit.
McC: invited into a chat where you had to put in an application form?
don't see actually vetting chat
McC: you were told: do not tell anyone, even other chapter members about this group?
yes
/109
no
McC showing him an exhibit.
McC: invited into a chat where you had to put in an application form?
don't see actually vetting chat
McC: you were told: do not tell anyone, even other chapter members about this group?
yes
/109
McC: told that repeatedly?
dont remember it was told repeatedly. common knowledge.
McC: told repeatedly?
when we entered the chat, it stated it a second time. i wasn't told repeatedly 'dont share info from this group'
McC now showing him a Tarrio exhibit ...
/110
dont remember it was told repeatedly. common knowledge.
McC: told repeatedly?
when we entered the chat, it stated it a second time. i wasn't told repeatedly 'dont share info from this group'
McC now showing him a Tarrio exhibit ...
/110
focusing in on "code of conduct" on MOSD application form. "everything ... will remain private. sharing is grounds for instant removal.
Now MOSD Members chat.
McC: image chosen for this chat was man with gas mask?
may have been
McC: message at bottom: Tarrio: ...
/111
Now MOSD Members chat.
McC: image chosen for this chat was man with gas mask?
may have been
McC: message at bottom: Tarrio: ...
/111
... screenshots ... sharing ... instant disvowal [etc]."
McC: Tarrio is a secretive person?
not necessarily. PBs is private organization. ...
McC: invited to join a video chat?
yes
McC: link to that chapter went to YouTube?
not necessarily.
/112
McC: Tarrio is a secretive person?
not necessarily. PBs is private organization. ...
McC: invited to join a video chat?
yes
McC: link to that chapter went to YouTube?
not necessarily.
/112
McC: everything that took place was streamed over the internet wasn't it?
yes. [he claims this link wasn't publicly available.] this is an exclusive link. it was unlisted. even what occurred was considered confidential. Youtube has a private section. i'm an IT guy.
/113
yes. [he claims this link wasn't publicly available.] this is an exclusive link. it was unlisted. even what occurred was considered confidential. Youtube has a private section. i'm an IT guy.
/113
McC: video broadcast on youtube?
yes
McC: there were discussions of violence in the telegram group correct?
yes
McC: same celebrations of violence we'd seen in vice city chat?
yes
McC: discussions of violence continued unabated?
unabated by--
you have bunch of guys who
/114
yes
McC: there were discussions of violence in the telegram group correct?
yes
McC: same celebrations of violence we'd seen in vice city chat?
yes
McC: discussions of violence continued unabated?
unabated by--
you have bunch of guys who
/114
put their lives on line to help ordinary americans, so you had a lot of lockerroom talk.
McC: some more discussion here?
i wasn't someone who frequented telegram much.
McC: "this could break some legs, just sayin"
sustained
/115
McC: some more discussion here?
i wasn't someone who frequented telegram much.
McC: "this could break some legs, just sayin"
sustained
/115
McC: ... "wanna kick ass when it's time to kick ass"
i would consider this hyperbole.
McC: there was violence in real life?
absolutely. ... like football lockerroom. we never targeted anyone. it was always reactionary. lot of poetic hyperbolic statements.
/116
i would consider this hyperbole.
McC: there was violence in real life?
absolutely. ... like football lockerroom. we never targeted anyone. it was always reactionary. lot of poetic hyperbolic statements.
/116
McC: when you're on the receiving end of violence, does it feel better if it's just hyperbole?
sustained.
sidebar
/117
sustained.
sidebar
/117
[Jauregui smiling & McC doing most of talking, so it looks like McC may lose whatever this one's about.]
/118
/118
McC: within the MOSD chats there were discussions about the Capitol?
yes
McC: some MOSD PBs were from vice city chapter?
yes
McC: "Gabriel [Garcia]: time to stack those bodies"
i was kicked out of MOSD chat by this time. didn't have access to what was going on on J3.
/119
yes
McC: some MOSD PBs were from vice city chapter?
yes
McC: "Gabriel [Garcia]: time to stack those bodies"
i was kicked out of MOSD chat by this time. didn't have access to what was going on on J3.
/119
i wasn't there enough to validate this photo. & toward end i was kicked out
McC: you were kicked out of MOSD chat?
yes
McC: you think you got kicked out prior to J3?
dont remember exactly when.
/120
McC: you were kicked out of MOSD chat?
yes
McC: you think you got kicked out prior to J3?
dont remember exactly when.
/120
McC: so your testimony about purpose of MOSD is informed by not reading earlier chats & then being kicked out later?
i was part of the video meetings and i was involved in policing this chat to make sure no inappropriate statements made. if i see things unbecoming of ...
/121
i was part of the video meetings and i was involved in policing this chat to make sure no inappropriate statements made. if i see things unbecoming of ...
/121
a conservative and that's why i was kicked out. ..
McC: your understanding of what MOSD was about was based on application form?
correct
McC: & participation in a video chat?
2 youtube videos as well as --
Judge: just answer question posed.
/122
McC: your understanding of what MOSD was about was based on application form?
correct
McC: & participation in a video chat?
2 youtube videos as well as --
Judge: just answer question posed.
/122
McC: your understanding was based on application and video chat, right?
not just those 2 things. every time leadership posted something and pinned it, i'd read it.... not familiar with every single statement.
McC: you didn't see this one because you were kicked out?
/123
not just those 2 things. every time leadership posted something and pinned it, i'd read it.... not familiar with every single statement.
McC: you didn't see this one because you were kicked out?
/123
McC: you're sure you were kicked out before J6?
yes.
McC: "so are normies ... going to push thru police lines and storm the capitol bldgs?"
McC: you didn't see that?
no, never seen it.
/124
yes.
McC: "so are normies ... going to push thru police lines and storm the capitol bldgs?"
McC: you didn't see that?
no, never seen it.
/124
"what would they do if 1mm patriots stormed and took capitol"?
i did not see that message
/125
i did not see that message
/125
McC: you said you policed the chat?
that's what i did. but i wasn't brought in was to do that.
McC: one thing you policed it for were antisemitic comments?
yes
McC: another thing you policed it for was racist comments?
correct
/126
that's what i did. but i wasn't brought in was to do that.
McC: one thing you policed it for were antisemitic comments?
yes
McC: another thing you policed it for was racist comments?
correct
/126
McC: you took these concerns to Tarrio?
yes
McC: you told him you disagreed with these comments?
yes
McC: he did not stop these comments, correct?
correct. he sympathized but wanted to deal with this after the event.
/127
yes
McC: you told him you disagreed with these comments?
yes
McC: he did not stop these comments, correct?
correct. he sympathized but wanted to deal with this after the event.
/127
Mcc: you felt people were sasying things directly counter to the bylaws, right?
correct
McC: bylaws say you're not supposed to be racist. not supposed to be antisemtic?
correct. correct
McC: but that's not what you experienced, right?
Hernandez (Rehl) objection
sidebar
/128
correct
McC: bylaws say you're not supposed to be racist. not supposed to be antisemtic?
correct. correct
McC: but that's not what you experienced, right?
Hernandez (Rehl) objection
sidebar
/128
[This whole time, this exhibit is still up on the monitor.]
/129
/129
McC: you did not believe that the racist/antisemitic language was consistent with bylaws?
correct
McC: you raised it with Tarrio?
one or 2 times. not that prevalent
McC: you raised in chats and it wasn't addressed?
it was addressed. enrique didn't have power to kick people
/130
correct
McC: you raised it with Tarrio?
one or 2 times. not that prevalent
McC: you raised in chats and it wasn't addressed?
it was addressed. enrique didn't have power to kick people
/130
out at national level.
McC: you were kicked out of MOSD?
correct
McC: because you were making these complaints about antisemitic comments?
never given explanation.
McC: you went to DC for J6 & said you did not meet with Tarrio or any other def on J5.
correct
/131
McC: you were kicked out of MOSD?
correct
McC: because you were making these complaints about antisemitic comments?
never given explanation.
McC: you went to DC for J6 & said you did not meet with Tarrio or any other def on J5.
correct
/131
McC: didn't got to Wash Mon. didn't go to march
correct. i was tasked with protecting bianca gracia.
McC: didn't join them on march to capitol?
correct
McC: no cellphone comms with them?
after the commotion, cellphone comms ceased.
McC: didn't have a radio?
correct
/132
correct. i was tasked with protecting bianca gracia.
McC: didn't join them on march to capitol?
correct
McC: no cellphone comms with them?
after the commotion, cellphone comms ceased.
McC: didn't have a radio?
correct
/132
McC showing him a photo of himself & 2 other people on morning of J6 & what he was wearing.
It's Mesa on left with a radio on his chest. He's standing next to "the Greek". he has a radio.
McC: Greek was in vice city chapter on plane to Nov rally?
yes. now i remember had
/133
It's Mesa on left with a radio on his chest. He's standing next to "the Greek". he has a radio.
McC: Greek was in vice city chapter on plane to Nov rally?
yes. now i remember had
/133
radio to talk to bianca's security. there were many different stages. but couldn't always communicate. we never used these radios. radios given to us by the 3d guy, but we never figure out how to use them.
McC: guy on right is who?
josh Macias.
McC: he was in bianca's ...
/134
McC: guy on right is who?
josh Macias.
McC: he was in bianca's ...
/134
hotel room?
yes.
Now going to break here for lunch till 1:30pm. Jury excused. (there will only be another hour of testimony, then jury will be excused at 2:30pm.) Attys stay.
/135
yes.
Now going to break here for lunch till 1:30pm. Jury excused. (there will only be another hour of testimony, then jury will be excused at 2:30pm.) Attys stay.
/135
Jauregui: wants the judge to admonish the next witness (CHS-SA) that she's still under subpoena so has to return Monday.
Jauregui: she's been receiving death threats ... seemed like there were two antifa [bothering her]. ...
Judge: we may not get to you today but ...
/136
Jauregui: she's been receiving death threats ... seemed like there were two antifa [bothering her]. ...
Judge: we may not get to you today but ...
/136
that's an ongoing legal obligation you have until party tells me they don't want to call you anymore. so it's a legal obligation that remains in place till i release you. any questions?
no.
Jauregui: should i release her now for day?
judge: i think she should remain
/137
no.
Jauregui: should i release her now for day?
judge: i think she should remain
/137
for reasons we should discuss. The witness leaves the room. (She was never identified.)
McC: for record, we will discuss with defense counsel appropriateness of having witness assistance available for the witness. this is an issue present in the case. one of reasons ...
/138
McC: for record, we will discuss with defense counsel appropriateness of having witness assistance available for the witness. this is an issue present in the case. one of reasons ...
/138
we've attempted to file things under seal. these things are serious.
Hernandez (Rehl): since i filed it on the record, i'm not taking the fall. when this pops up in the middle--after govt has tried its case and just before a defense witness is ready to testify ... they
/139
Hernandez (Rehl): since i filed it on the record, i'm not taking the fall. when this pops up in the middle--after govt has tried its case and just before a defense witness is ready to testify ... they
/139
can't put this on us. and i didn't identify the witness.
Hassan (Tarrio): my concern is this witness is jewish as you aware ... there may be concerns as far as this witness returning monday as well. [??]
Judge: he's also under continuing legal obligatino to return. ...
/140
Hassan (Tarrio): my concern is this witness is jewish as you aware ... there may be concerns as far as this witness returning monday as well. [??]
Judge: he's also under continuing legal obligatino to return. ...
/140
Everyone excused for lunch till 1:40pm.
/141
/141
Judge Kelly back.
/142
/142
Nayib Hassan (Tarrio) discussing certain images that govt wants to introduce that he objects to. But McC says he's not going to introduce those. But he is going to be discussing his role on the evening of J5 and who he saw in Bianca Gracia's hotel room. He saw ...
/143
/143
Oath Keeper founder Stewart Rhodes & girlfriend OK Kellye SoRelle there at Gracia's hotel. Witness was also doing security at the stage for Gracia and he may want to ask about whether the witness saw Rhodes & SoRelle.
Judge doesn't see these as within the scope of direct.
/144
Judge doesn't see these as within the scope of direct.
/144
AUSA McC saying that witness claimed to be doing security, but why would he be going to room of Gracia and seeing all these people and what's that got to do with security?
Judge: don't understand how it's within scope of direct.
McC: the defense is that this is all 1st Am..
/145
Judge: don't understand how it's within scope of direct.
McC: the defense is that this is all 1st Am..
/145
... & opportunities to give speeches and go to a rally. but it's relevant & within the scope that stewart rhodes is in the hotel room with gracia & they're discussing their involvement that evening & following day. it refutes idea this is done for 1st am purposes. he's ...
/146
/146
head of OKs who's just met with Tarrio in a garage night before and continuing to associate with Gracia who is thick-as-thieves with--strike that--very close with Tarrio. and this is all supposed to be about LfT & we're going to a rally from 10-noon.
Judge: i think it's ...
/147
Judge: i think it's ...
/147
beyond the scope for this witness. You think this undermines idea this is 1st am protected--but without more i don't see how it does that.
McC: following evening, J6, he posts to other PBs that "it was planned in our hotel room the night before by OKs and III%ers."
/148
McC: following evening, J6, he posts to other PBs that "it was planned in our hotel room the night before by OKs and III%ers."
/148
J8 at 1:46am UTC: "i'm thrilled with what happened and don't know why people keep saying its antifa/blm. it was planned in our hotel room day before by OKs and III%ers."
Nick Smith (Nordean): that's exculpatory. This trial isn't about OKs or III%ers. ...
/149
Nick Smith (Nordean): that's exculpatory. This trial isn't about OKs or III%ers. ...
/149
Judge wants to see message before this one.
McC shows: "why do people keep mentioning Antifa and BLM. We [conservatives] did that."
Smith: we'd ask that "it was in the moment" be included if you permit this.
Norm Pattis (Biggs) objects. Would confuse the issues. ...
/150
McC shows: "why do people keep mentioning Antifa and BLM. We [conservatives] did that."
Smith: we'd ask that "it was in the moment" be included if you permit this.
Norm Pattis (Biggs) objects. Would confuse the issues. ...
/150
... it's trying to smuggle something in by insinuation.
Judge: these are his statements & i don't see why [govt] doesn't get to ask about them. the witness will say whatever he says about it.
Hernandez (Rehl): this is a chat involving a handful of FL people. hearsay, 403..
/151
Judge: these are his statements & i don't see why [govt] doesn't get to ask about them. the witness will say whatever he says about it.
Hernandez (Rehl): this is a chat involving a handful of FL people. hearsay, 403..
/151
Hernandez: ... my client never mentioned.
Judge: it's fair ...
Smith: planned from our hotel room, it was OKs and III%ers -- what's relevance to PBs?
Judge: just because other people also involved doesn't mean--it's at least an implication that we planned it with them.
/152
Judge: it's fair ...
Smith: planned from our hotel room, it was OKs and III%ers -- what's relevance to PBs?
Judge: just because other people also involved doesn't mean--it's at least an implication that we planned it with them.
/152
Judge bringing in jury.
/153
/153
AUSA McC resumes cross of George Mesa (a/k/a Rabbi Ash Barkizoba)
McC reminding jury of his testimony about rabbinical school & synagogue he ran.
McC: you are controversial figure?
yes
McC: because you do mass conversions of people to judaism?
yes
/154
McC reminding jury of his testimony about rabbinical school & synagogue he ran.
McC: you are controversial figure?
yes
McC: because you do mass conversions of people to judaism?
yes
/154
McC: you offer free vaccine exemptions if people send their name and telephone numbers to you?
yes.
sidebar
sustained
McC: you described your military service?
yes
/155
yes.
sidebar
sustained
McC: you described your military service?
yes
/155
McC: you separated from military under threat of court martial because you'd been AWOL for more than a yr?
yes, more than 6 mos. don't recall exact dates. what i was trying to achieve--
judge interrupts
/156
yes, more than 6 mos. don't recall exact dates. what i was trying to achieve--
judge interrupts
/156
McC: separated under other-than-honorable discharge to avoid court-martial?
yes.
now returning to J6
McC: you went to stage--12-15 min from capitol?
yes
McC: spent entire morning there?
yes
/157
yes.
now returning to J6
McC: you went to stage--12-15 min from capitol?
yes
McC: spent entire morning there?
yes
/157
McC: providing security for bianca gracia?
yes
McC: other individuals there?
yes.
McC: you, the greek, and 3d person providing security?
yes
McC: Tarrio supposed to have shown up between 10 and noon?
yes
/158
yes
McC: other individuals there?
yes.
McC: you, the greek, and 3d person providing security?
yes
McC: Tarrio supposed to have shown up between 10 and noon?
yes
/158
McC: and he did not show up?
correct
McC: PBs marching that morning?
wasn't official event.
McC: you don't believe Nordean and Biggs led other PBs to Capitol?
i'm not familiar with that.
/159
correct
McC: PBs marching that morning?
wasn't official event.
McC: you don't believe Nordean and Biggs led other PBs to Capitol?
i'm not familiar with that.
/159
McC: they never came to your rally, correct?
correct.
McC: they were not there to provide security to your rally, right?
correct. can't really say if they were there. never met these individuals in past.
McC: you never saw large group of PBs come to your rally site?
/160
correct.
McC: they were not there to provide security to your rally, right?
correct. can't really say if they were there. never met these individuals in past.
McC: you never saw large group of PBs come to your rally site?
/160
not that i remember.
McC: after breach you didn't see any signs saying you couldn't be there?
correct
McC: no officers telling you to stop?
correct
McC: no violence toward officers.
door i saw was never breached. within bldg there were officers.
McC: you could see ...
/161
McC: after breach you didn't see any signs saying you couldn't be there?
correct
McC: no officers telling you to stop?
correct
McC: no violence toward officers.
door i saw was never breached. within bldg there were officers.
McC: you could see ...
/161
inside the bldg?
correct. door had glass panels and they were cracked. there were officers holding a door. at some point, officer came out with shield, pushed people back.
McC now showing Mesa a video. Mesa acknowledges being near this door. seeing violent melee near
/162
correct. door had glass panels and they were cracked. there were officers holding a door. at some point, officer came out with shield, pushed people back.
McC now showing Mesa a video. Mesa acknowledges being near this door. seeing violent melee near
/162
a door. Our house, our house. Rioters clutching cloths over noses.
i was there for about 15 minutes. that door was never breached. this person was person i was protecting. i went where they went.
McC: you were there to protect those women? it's their fault?
sustained
/163
i was there for about 15 minutes. that door was never breached. this person was person i was protecting. i went where they went.
McC: you were there to protect those women? it's their fault?
sustained
/163
[now showing Mesa]
yes, that was me escorting them out.
McC: that door is open right there?
i didn't see that. that happened after i left. [This is the Columbus Door/East Rotunda door.]
McC: your job was to escort the ladies away after the door was breached?
/164
yes, that was me escorting them out.
McC: that door is open right there?
i didn't see that. that happened after i left. [This is the Columbus Door/East Rotunda door.]
McC: your job was to escort the ladies away after the door was breached?
/164
i never saw it breached. i was walking away. 3 sec later door was opened.
McC: did you see protesters moving into the bldg?
not thru this door.
McC: escorting the women to safety you didn't see what happened 10-15 sec later?
right. so densely populated, just trying ...
/165
McC: did you see protesters moving into the bldg?
not thru this door.
McC: escorting the women to safety you didn't see what happened 10-15 sec later?
right. so densely populated, just trying ...
/165
to get out.
McC: you understood purpose of going to DC on J6?
yes
McC: people were trying to prevent steal from going thru?
yes
McC: you think people that went inside bldg are heroes?
i dont think anyone at that time thought they were doing anything wrong.
/166
McC: you understood purpose of going to DC on J6?
yes
McC: people were trying to prevent steal from going thru?
yes
McC: you think people that went inside bldg are heroes?
i dont think anyone at that time thought they were doing anything wrong.
/166
McC: you believe people who went inside are heroes?
yes i do.
McC: in your view breaking into capitol is legitimate form of political protest?
i believe protesting at that moment the whole country no one knew what was happening. ...
/167
yes i do.
McC: in your view breaking into capitol is legitimate form of political protest?
i believe protesting at that moment the whole country no one knew what was happening. ...
/167
after the fact yes i think what happened classifies these people as heroes.
McC: you believe they're heroes because one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist?
sustained
McC: you posted a statement describing your views following J6?
objections overruled
dont remember
/168
McC: you believe they're heroes because one man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist?
sustained
McC: you posted a statement describing your views following J6?
objections overruled
dont remember
/168
McC showing him an exhibit
Hernandez and Hassan asking for sidebar
sidebar
/169
Hernandez and Hassan asking for sidebar
sidebar
/169
Judge now excusing the jurors for the weekend. (This was expected. A juror had a medical appointment.) Attys stay.
/170
/170
Judge: was video on J6 or J7?
McC: in January. the statement is bracketed by "Uhurus." On direct MOSD was about people staying safe, keep together. then on cross he fought me on idea that he or anyone else had any mindset of stopping certification. ...
/171
McC: in January. the statement is bracketed by "Uhurus." On direct MOSD was about people staying safe, keep together. then on cross he fought me on idea that he or anyone else had any mindset of stopping certification. ...
/171
... but this is what was in his mindset and what he felt comfortable sharing: we should have gone further. we didn't go far enough. it's impeaching of his testimony about what he was there to do, what the objective was. also goes to primal nature of it. the bias he has
/172
/172
to protect these defs whom he views as heroes.
Hassan (Tarrio): outside the scope. ... hearsay ... 4 days after the event. no reference to PBs as far as what they did, or these individuals did.
Judge: the bias point would supersede all that. bias always within scope.
/173
Hassan (Tarrio): outside the scope. ... hearsay ... 4 days after the event. no reference to PBs as far as what they did, or these individuals did.
Judge: the bias point would supersede all that. bias always within scope.
/173
Norm Pattis (Biggs): he was thrown out of MOSD and never saw defs on J6, so no nexus to defs. ...
McC: don't think there's caselaw that because the video shows bias too well it's not admissible. ... He's sharing his view with his fellow brothers as to how strongly he ...
/174
McC: don't think there's caselaw that because the video shows bias too well it's not admissible. ... He's sharing his view with his fellow brothers as to how strongly he ...
/174
believes that these guys are heroes.
Hassan: at no point in video does he mention PBs.
McC: I'm not sure when i'll get into this, but he was in the MOSD chats thru J6. didn't get kicked out until after. as a factual matter, he was involved in these chats.
/175
Hassan: at no point in video does he mention PBs.
McC: I'm not sure when i'll get into this, but he was in the MOSD chats thru J6. didn't get kicked out until after. as a factual matter, he was involved in these chats.
/175
Judge: he's heard enough on that. now he's asking whether we need to seal the courtroom to talk more about [the issues surrounding CHS-SA].
Jauregui (Tarrio): we'd object to sealing the courtroom. Her name is out there already.
Judge: part of basis--there are other bases
/176
Jauregui (Tarrio): we'd object to sealing the courtroom. Her name is out there already.
Judge: part of basis--there are other bases
/176
McC: to extent that some other reporting has been shared. if we get into substance of that that could jeopardize other items. our preference would be if we can avoid [sealing] probably fine. 2d thing, would ask court if there's more atty/client material they plan to ...
/177
/177
discuss.
Judge: 1st part of discussion is about how to proceed.
Norman Pattis (Biggs): we met with taint counsel ... don't know what govt has. we don't intend to address atty/client claims.
Judge: i'd asked parties to provide additional facts if they had them. Rec'd some
/178
Judge: 1st part of discussion is about how to proceed.
Norman Pattis (Biggs): we met with taint counsel ... don't know what govt has. we don't intend to address atty/client claims.
Judge: i'd asked parties to provide additional facts if they had them. Rec'd some
/178
info from one defendant. Our conversation this morning, Mr. Jauregui, suggested there are more facts out there.
J: last night i did provide sworn recorded statement from witness to govt. ... can provide to court [if you like.]
McC: yes, it's been said to prosecution team &
/179
J: last night i did provide sworn recorded statement from witness to govt. ... can provide to court [if you like.]
McC: yes, it's been said to prosecution team &
/179
taint team as well.
Judge: in light of that--I've got a motion for evidentiary hearing. 2 layers here. (1) do i need to develop facts further? (2) what do we do outside presence of jury and what inside presence of jury. This is pretty good analog to what we encountered ...
/180
Judge: in light of that--I've got a motion for evidentiary hearing. 2 layers here. (1) do i need to develop facts further? (2) what do we do outside presence of jury and what inside presence of jury. This is pretty good analog to what we encountered ...
/180
before. i have to develop the facts and rule on that outside the presence of jury. if there's a violation then i do what's appropriate. ... (2) what might or might not be appropriate in front of jury.
McC: before we break, would ask Hernandez to put something on record.
/181
McC: before we break, would ask Hernandez to put something on record.
/181
Steven Metcalf (def Dominic Pezzola): one of my potential witnesses, Lisa McGee popped her head in the courtroom. I'll make sure that doesn't happen again. [I think that's Pezzola's common-law wife.]
/182
/182
Judge: Mr. Pattis, you're not going to face any discipline for the photograph you took in the courtroom, given that it was done in spirit of zealous advocacy. [That related to something that happened during the testimony of FBI agent Nicole Miller.]
Taking 10 min break.
/183
Taking 10 min break.
/183
[Frankly, I thought it was legitimate. He was trying to cast doubt on Miller's remarkable ability to identify PBs out of an overhead CCTV shot of a crowd scene. So he took photos of his monitor as she circled PBs in the crowd. Then, on cross, he asked her to ID them ...
/184
/184
again (circling them again) on a blank version of the same photo, and then he compared the two photos. As it happened, I think she did a very good job of repeating her performance. But courthouse rules forbid *any* photos inside the whole courthouse unless the judge ...
/185
/185
authorizes an exception in advance.]
/186
/186
Judge Kelly back on bench.
/187
/187
Judge: how do we proceed from here.
Jauregui: we're ready to call this witness. we need nothing. just want to call her Monday after Mesa finishes testifying. don't have issues some other defendants have. no intrusion into our defense camp.
/188
Jauregui: we're ready to call this witness. we need nothing. just want to call her Monday after Mesa finishes testifying. don't have issues some other defendants have. no intrusion into our defense camp.
/188
Nick Smith (Nordean) : no objection to Jauregui/Tarrio's proposal. all issues can be explored on cross.
Judge: that ignores what i said. there may be things appropriate to explore at evidentiary hearing outside jury's presence.
Smith: issue of whether there's been an ...
/189
Judge: that ignores what i said. there may be things appropriate to explore at evidentiary hearing outside jury's presence.
Smith: issue of whether there's been an ...
/189
intentional intrusion into defense camp is legitimate question for cross
Norm Pattis (Biggs): we're ready to roll . (might need an evidentiary hearing separately.)
Carmen Hernandez (Rehl): fine with proceeding. i have a witness scheduled to self-surrender on Tues.
/190
Norm Pattis (Biggs): we're ready to roll . (might need an evidentiary hearing separately.)
Carmen Hernandez (Rehl): fine with proceeding. i have a witness scheduled to self-surrender on Tues.
/190
Roger Roots (Pezzola): with regard to 6th Am issue we don't have a problem like other camps. this witness hasn't had any contact with our camp, tho we're still looking into this. we have issues relating to disclosure and Brady problems [failure to turn over allegedly
/191
/191
exculpatory (or exonerating) material].
Judge: if we call this person, the question becomes what's in and out of bounds.
McC: we agree with path forward. The issue is the scope of direct & cross. I think the audio tees up what's relevant and appropriate. we disagree with
/192
Judge: if we call this person, the question becomes what's in and out of bounds.
McC: we agree with path forward. The issue is the scope of direct & cross. I think the audio tees up what's relevant and appropriate. we disagree with
/192
Smith's view that invasion of the defense camp is fair game on cross.
Judge: you all could lay out for me what the controversial areas are. I can listen to Mr. Jauregui's recording and take it under advisement over the weekend.
McC: we think inappropriate to suggest ...
/193
Judge: you all could lay out for me what the controversial areas are. I can listen to Mr. Jauregui's recording and take it under advisement over the weekend.
McC: we think inappropriate to suggest ...
/193
inappropriate conduct by govt or FBI under Federal Rule of Evidence 103(d).
Norm Pattis (Biggs): i have no intention of getting into comms with Biggs.
Jauregui (Tarrio): i do want to get into her relationship with her 2 different handlers. The amount of time ...
/194
Norm Pattis (Biggs): i have no intention of getting into comms with Biggs.
Jauregui (Tarrio): i do want to get into her relationship with her 2 different handlers. The amount of time ...
/194
she spent with them. whether the info she provided about J6 was taken seriously. we have right to attack whether FBI did thoro investigation, followed leads, whether this person gave exculpatory info. i'm going to stay away from her comms with my client. Govt had
/195
/195
all these CHSs and not a single one told govt that our clients had a plan to storm the capitol.
Judge: i did admit some evidence about soe folks in a position to know. but this person as far as what i've been provided, was not a CHS on J6. this person is not similarly
/196
Judge: i did admit some evidence about soe folks in a position to know. but this person as far as what i've been provided, was not a CHS on J6. this person is not similarly
/196
situated to CHSs for which i've permitted evidence to be submitted.
Jauregui: she would testify she was in at least 100 different telegram channels or groups. friends with multiple PBs. saw no chatter on any of those groups of any plans on J6 to storm capitol. ...
/197
Jauregui: she would testify she was in at least 100 different telegram channels or groups. friends with multiple PBs. saw no chatter on any of those groups of any plans on J6 to storm capitol. ...
/197
... whenever she saw anything amiss she'd call her handlers ... the materials we've been provided are incorrect. not 16 [conversations?] but more like 40.
Judge: maybe you could say you had "informal" relationship & she didn't call [FBI] up ...
/198
Judge: maybe you could say you had "informal" relationship & she didn't call [FBI] up ...
/198
Smith (Nordean): court agrees we're allowed to explore bias and incentive to fabricate. if CHS is tasked with reporting on defs in case and that is how they earn income there is possibility that witness would fabricate their testimony on that subject. ...
/199
/199
that's something we're entitled to explore given good-faith basis we have to believe there was unusual activity. It's an issue of bias and incentive to fabricate.
Judge: you want to ask, did govt task you with obtaining info about my client?
Smith: yes, and related ...
/200
Judge: you want to ask, did govt task you with obtaining info about my client?
Smith: yes, and related ...
/200
witness has had conversations with handler about my client even without being 'tasked' to do that, it's a tacit understanding.
Jauregui: another proffer: she did talk to her handler about PB rallies she'd been to. talked about biggs and tarrio. she's a percipient witness.
/201
Jauregui: another proffer: she did talk to her handler about PB rallies she'd been to. talked about biggs and tarrio. she's a percipient witness.
/201
Jauregui: she started in 2018. Govt says, well, it wasn't formalized until April 2020.
Judge: one of said she said something like--
Smith: she gives some responses in audio that are inconsistent with content of records we received from govt.
Judge: number of contacts?
yes
/202
Judge: one of said she said something like--
Smith: she gives some responses in audio that are inconsistent with content of records we received from govt.
Judge: number of contacts?
yes
/202
Judge: sounds much sketchier than what i've admitted previously. ...
Smith: she's being paid; has incentive to [come up with stuff.] our good-faith basis is the series of unusual contacts she's made which i've filed under seal.
/203
Smith: she's being paid; has incentive to [come up with stuff.] our good-faith basis is the series of unusual contacts she's made which i've filed under seal.
/203
AUSA McC: once you hear the recording i think you will be in a much better position to judge whether there's any good-faith basis for inquiring about whether she invaded the defense camp. was not reporting on PBs, would never report on PBs. would only report on "our side."
/204
/204
It's a 36 minute recording. you'll hear the back-and-forth. i think some of the questions you'll hear would be inappropriate to come out before the jury. suggestion that govt outed you. didn't even give you the courtesy of a heads-up before doing this or that. you'll hear it
/205
/205
McC: Mr. Jauregui is very good--and i say this very warmly--at insinuating things with his body with his voice. i don't want insinuation that govt's done something improper thru the questions.
Judge: what was the original--what's her testimony that we haven't discussed.
/206
Judge: what was the original--what's her testimony that we haven't discussed.
/206
Jauregui: she was there on J6, watching trump speech. i think she was going to give a speech. trump went long. at one point she'd been in Latinos for Trump.
Carmen Hernandez (Rehl) now talking about witness who's been sentenced. self-surrender date extended to Tues....
/207
Carmen Hernandez (Rehl) now talking about witness who's been sentenced. self-surrender date extended to Tues....
/207
[I think this is WV PB Jeff Finley.]
AUSA McC: the order is to report on Tuesday. Let's check with [US] Marshals.
Judge: i can pick up the phone and call Judge Chutkan on your all's behalf if need be.
Recessed to 9am Monday. Hope to see you then.
/208-end
AUSA McC: the order is to report on Tuesday. Let's check with [US] Marshals.
Judge: i can pick up the phone and call Judge Chutkan on your all's behalf if need be.
Recessed to 9am Monday. Hope to see you then.
/208-end
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