Thread by @MSS3RosaFerreum

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace False.
As to when men always got custody in divorce, consider "Lagging Behind the Times: Parenthood, Custody, and Gender Bias in the Family Court" by Cynthia A. McNeely published in 1998 in Volume 25 of the Florida State University Law Review, page 891 (ir.law.fsu.edu/lr/vol25/iss4/…).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace "[T]he father [was designated] as the natural protector of children because he had the ability to provide for their financial support. Women were seen as incapable of handling legal or financial matters…." 25 Fla. St. U. L. Rev. 891, 897 (1998).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace "Because fathers usually provided the family’s sole income through their employment away from the home [during the Industrial Revolution], this absence advanced the fathers' 'long march from the center to the periphery of domestic life.'" 25 Fla. St. U. L. Rev. at 898 (1998).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace "Congress implemented the Talfourd Act of 1839 to legislate the presumption that courts should award custody of children under age seven to the mother." 25 Fla. St. U. L. Rev. at 897 (1998).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace "This presumption became known as the 'tender-years doctrine,' which legalized for the first time the belief that mothers were better suited to raise children than fathers." 25 Fla. St. U. L. Rev. at 897 (1998).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace "Eventually, 'the tender-years presumption became the rationale for awarding custody of children of all ages to the mother on a permanent basis.'" 25 Fla. St. U. L. Rev. at 899 (1998).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace "[T]he continuous refrain throughout the last one hundred years has been that when it comes to childrearing, fathers are not that important." 25 Fla. St. U. L. Rev. at 914 (1998).

Feminists actually pushed this message that fathers aren't important. 102 Virginia Law Review 144.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace Consider "The Divorce Bargain: The Fathers’ Rights Movement and Family Inequalities" by Deborah Dinner published in 2016 in Volume 102 of the _Virginia Law Review_ beginning at page 79 (available at: virginialawreview.org/articles/divor…).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace “[L]egal reforms enabling fathers to fulfill caregiving roles through joint custody would also enable mothers to fulfill breadwinning roles.” 102 Virginia Law Review 128 (virginialawreview.org/articles/divor…).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace "By promoting joint custody as well as sex-neutral spousal maintenance, …the [divorce] bargain liberalized gender roles within divorced families, offering a model of a more egalitarian family structure." 102 Virginia Law Review 142 (virginialawreview.org/articles/divor…).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace "Criticism of joint custody formed part of a broader critique among feminist legal theorists in the 1980s about what they perceived as an earlier generation of feminist reformers’ mistaken focus on same treatment." 102 Virginia Law Review 144 (virginialawreview.org/articles/divor…).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace Specifically, "[t]he literature argued that liberal feminist reformers had pursued formal equality that … entrenched women’s subordination." 102 Virginia Law Review 144 n. 334 (virginialawreview.org/articles/divor…).

How does "formal equality" "entrench[] women’s subordination"?

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace The liberal feminist reformers (and prior feminists) addressed the desires of middle class and rich women, but “[c]hild support enforcement imposes a middle-class breadwinner model on poor and working-class fathers.” 102 Virginia Law Review 147–148 (virginialawreview.org/wp-content/upl…).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace “…[T]his system harms rather than nurtures paternal-child relationships in low-income families and contributes to poor men’s economic insecurity. The majority of men who do not comply with formal child support orders cannot afford to do so.” 102 Virginia Law Review 148.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace “Among never-married parents, mothers serve as … ‘gatekeepers’ for fathers’ access to their children.” 102 Virginia Law Review 148–149 (virginialawreview.org/wp-content/upl…).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace “[F]eminist theorists argued that the advent of joint custody preferences undermined mothers’ bargaining power at divorce.” 102 Virginia Law Review 143 (virginialawreview.org/wp-content/upl…).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace It was argued that “…a sex-neutral custody standard created an incentive for the parent with a greater socio-emotional attachment to her child to trade away child support obligations and property entitlements to avoid trial.” 102 Virginia L. Rev. 143 (virginialawreview.org/wp-content/upl…).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace "The …[federal Child Support Enforcement Amendments Act of 1984] legislation passed by Congress represented a …victory for women’s rights groups…. The law… did not tie child support responsibilities to reciprocal visitation and custody rights." 102 Virginia Law Review 138.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace As outlined above, before labor-saving gizmos, men used to be awarded custody whenever the courts got involved and then the "tender years" doctrine came to be (which was advocated for by women) which led to sole custody being awarded to women and women getting child support.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace However, men prior to the "tender years" doctrine had to be the household breadwinner (as such men received no child support at that time) and had to care for their children.

@Scuba_On_Mars, why can't modern women handle the degree of responsibility on their own that men could?

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace Now consider that now about 82% of single parent homes in 2021 are being run by single mothers (census.gov/data/tables/20…, table A3; www2.census.gov/programs-surve…).

Consider that kids who never had a father living with them have the highest incarceration rates (mnpsych.org/index.php%3Fop…).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace Consider that kids in father-only homes have no difference in incarceration rate than kids from two-parent homes (mnpsych.org/index.php%3Fop…) and there was an over 25% drop in homicide, violent crime, and property crime due to legalized abortion (pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10…, at 182).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace The mnpsych.org citations regarding incarceration rates are from "Father-Absent Homes: Implications for Criminal Justice and Mental Health Professionals" by by: Jerrod Brown, MA, MS, MS, MS published by Minnesota Psychological Association.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace Why is there this disparity between (a.) single mother households and (b.) both single father households and two-parent households?

Is it in society’s interests to fund the single-parent lifestyle choice women make? …or the force fathers to fund that lifestyle?

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace There was no child support prior to the 1800's. Child support didn't exist in America 🇺🇸 prior to 1839. The idea that women were responsible enough to independently parent started in 1839 (but women needed a man's financial help as women were seen as so irresponsible otherwise).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace We have to allow the intentional killing of human life (through abortions) to prevent a significant percentage of the societal consequences of irresponsible parenting by single mothers (some of whom do not know who fathered their child) caused by their sexual irresponsibility.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace How can a man choose to become a father? The answer is: he can’t. Parenthood is a decision that rests solely with women. Why should the consequences of that decision be laid at the feet of anyone other than the person who made that decision?

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace Women have all the choices regarding parenthood. A woman can choose to be a parent if she finds a willing sperm donor. A man cannot choose to become a parent even if he finds a willing egg donor or a willing sex partner. She who has the womb has the choice of parenthood.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace If a woman terminates the pregnancy, she terminates the possibility of parenthood. If she carries the pregnancy to term, she puts the responsibilities of parenthood on the father whether that male wants to be a parent or not and whether he consented to sex or impregnation or not.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace Under State of Kansas ex rel. Hermesmann v. Seyer, 252 Kan. 646 (1993)(en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesman… | lexisnexis.com/community/amp-… | law.justia.com/cases/kansas/s…), parental obligations can be imposed on men even when legal consent to sex is absent.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace A 13-year-old boy can be raped by a 30-year-old woman, but if his rapist gets pregnant, (because women have all the choices regarding parenthood) the boy has to pay child support to her — as society deems a 13-year-old boy more fiscally responsible than a 30-year-old woman.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace Why are men continuously viewed as more responsible by society?

Well, perhaps because men work more hours than women (on average) and thereby men get more pay than women (on average).

Afterall, there is a #GenderedLaborGap and a #GenderPayGap.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace If you add up both the unpaid and paid labor, on average, men work more total time than women creating a #GenderedLaborGap pursuant to (as an example) the @BLS_gov's 2017 American Time Use Survey (bls.gov/news.release/a…) and @pewresearch's data (pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018…).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch American Time Use Survey (with 2017 as an example) shows that women on average are not spending enough more time with their kids, doing chores, or anything else to explain women's lack of time working. On average, men just work more in America (considering both paid and unpaid).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Let's do the math:

Table 8A, column 1: Men: Women:
Household activities: 1.31 2.34
Caring for household: 1.01 1.85
Work-related activities: 5.46 3.37
==========
Total: 7.78 7.56

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Now comparing the men from Table 8B to the women from Table 8C (where the youngest child is under 6):

Women care for and help household members 2.08 more hours per day than men in the most extreme case presented by Table 8A, but men work 6.43 hours more per day than women.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Similarly, comparing the men from Table 8B to the women from Table 8C (where the youngest child is under 6), women do household activities for 1.91 more hours per day than men in the most extreme case presented by Table 8A, but, again, men work 6.43 hours more per day than women.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Let's do the math: Men: Women:
Household activities: 1.26 3.17
Caring for household: 1.42 3.36
Work-related activities: 6.57 0.00
==========
Total: 9.25 6.53

Who is laboring more?

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch By comparing the men from Table 8B to the women from Table 8C (using the youngest child under 6 column), we see the situation where women are unemployed and spending the most time caring not only for the children but the whole family.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Other @BLS_gov data (see below) indicates that 61% of families have both parents employed (bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/…) but does not indicate whether the mothers are working full-time or part-time.

The American Time Use Survey does have an answer in Table 8B.

Let's check that out.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Let's do the math:

Table 8B, column 1: Men: Women:
Household activities: 1.23 1.90
Caring for household: 0.93 1.52
Work-related activities: 6.35 5.01
===========
Total: 8.51 8.43

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Maybe women are forced to stay home with their kids and that causes the gap. If true, women with no kids should be working the same amount as men in the workforce as there is no reason not to since there is no reason to be on call and no extra household or childcare duties.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Let's do that math:

Table 8A, column 4: Men: Women:
Household activities: 1.54 2.21
Caring for household: 0.07 0.07
Work-related activities: 4.11 2.83
===========
Total: 5.72 5.11

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Consider just workers:

Table 8B, column 4: Men: Women:
Household activities: 1.34 1.80
Caring for household: 0.04 0.05
Work-related activities: 6.17 5.29
===========
Total: 7.55 7.14

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Whether you consider all currently childless folks (Table 8A) or just the ones working (Table 8B), women spend less time on paid labor and related activities and women spend less time working considering both unpaid domestic labor and paid labor added together. The pattern holds.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Moreover, homemaking is not usually physically demanding work (unlike the paid labor many men do that women typically do not).

See, Women Workers and Women at Home Are Equally Inactive: NHANES 2003–2006 (available at ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/P…).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch "A recent study conducted by the PEW Research Center found that stay-at-home mothers reported spending more time on childcare, housework, leisure activities, and sleep more than working mothers" (ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/P…).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch The Social Security Administration doesn't generally consider "household tasks" and "self-care" to be substantial gainful activity (even where one is getting in-kind payment like living rent-free). Social Security Ruling 83-33; POMS § DI 10501.001; 20 C.F.R. §§ 404.1572, 416.972.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Arguably, "household tasks" and "self-care" don't involve "doing significant physical or mental activities." See, SSR 83-33 (ssa.gov/OP_Home/ruling…); POMS §DI 10501.001 (secure.ssa.gov/poms.NSF/lnx/0…); 20 C.F.R. §§ 404.1572 (ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/…), 416.972 (ssa.gov/OP_Home/cfr20/…).

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Table 8A of the @BLS_gov’s 2019 American Time Use Survey (bls.gov/news.release/a…) demonstrates that this #GenderedLaborGap continues to be a problem. It is not just something that existed as a freak accident of statistics in 2017.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch 2019:
Table 8A, column 1: Men: Women:
Household activities: 1.28 2.33
Caring for household: 0.95 1.80
Work-related activities: 5.72 3.35
==========
Total: 7.95 7.48

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Again, the first Table 8 of the @BLS_gov’s 2012 American Time Use Survey (bls.gov/news.release/a…) demonstrates that the #GenderedLaborGap is not just something that existed as a freak accident of statistics in either 2017 or 2019.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Let's do that math:

1st Table 8, column 1: Men: Women:
Household activities: 1.11 2.28
Caring for household: 1.51 2.54
Work-related activities: 5.33 3.04
============
Total: 7.95 7.86

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch So, @Scuba_On_Mars, why can't modern women handle the degree of responsibility on their own that the men of old could (

https://twitter.com/MSS3RosaFerreum/status/1651657819928801280?s=20

)?

Why can't women work as many hours as men do to support the kids that those women unilaterally chose to have?

Are women less capable?

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch Well, @Scuba_On_Mars, is it really parenting that mothers are doing when women who parent without the input of the father cause their kids to have statistically worse outcomes (on average) and women can't parent without the income of a man to support their incompetent efforts?

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch While I'll concede that "that babies [are better off with] women at home to care for them when they are small" (despite baby formula existing), kids nevertheless have as good an outcome in a single father home as a two-parent home.

"Need" is too strong and not supported by data.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch However, @Scuba_On_Mars, it is historically false to say that child support was just to support children. It is more historically accurate to say that child support exists to support rich and middle class mothers who didn't work and who were considered financially irresponsible.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch However, @Scuba_On_Mars, it is historically false to say that child support was just to support children. It is more historically accurate to say that child support exists to support rich and middle-class mothers who didn't work and who were considered financially irresponsible.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch The historical record shows that child support exists in America 🇺🇸 because rich and middle-class women — unlike men — were viewed by society (including by women) to be incompetent in handling their finances and incapable of working enough to care for children by themselves.

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch For millennia, when men were the sole custodial parents after divorce, women were neither asked nor required to pay child support. Men supported the kids of whom the men had custody.

@Scuba_On_Mars, why can’t modern women handle the same degree of responsibility as men of old?

@Scuba_On_Mars @BrassVon @JayHamiltonMAN @Oneiorosgrip @HeinerPara @musa_mylove @harmonizedgrace @BLS_gov @pewresearch @threadreaderapp, please unroll.