Thread by @rparloff

The sentencing hearing for Oath Keeper founder and J6 leader Elmer Stewart Rhodes III begins ~9:30am. If the media room is open, I'll be live-tweeting for @lawfareblog . The top count is seditious conspiracy & the govt seeks 25 yrs. It's possible Rhodes will speak. ...
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At about 1:30pm, USDJ Amit Mehta will begin the sentencing hearing for FL Oath Keeper Kelly Meggs, for whom the govt seeks 21 years. I'll be here for that, too.
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The govt will be seeking "terror enhancements" for all 9 of the 1st OKs being sentenced. The govt has sought those 4x before in J6 cases, but judges have rebuffed each time. IMHO it's likely at least one OK will get one. Background: bit.ly/3IvjZ5P
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Yesterday, Judge Mehta held a sentencing-related hearing relating to all 9 OKs to be sentenced this week & next. In the morning five witnesses gave live, moving victim-impact statements. There were multiple good press stories about those ...
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... but the one thing I'd add is this. It's very striking when huge, tough men like USCP officer @libradunn & MPD officer Chris Owens begin to present their statements and then choke up or break into tears outright when they remember that day. ... bit.ly/3VXugNr
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Although we sensibly pay most attention to the physical assaults on officers that day—140 were injured—we underestimate the emotional toll of having 1000s of people calling you traitors, oath-breakers, &, in the case of black officers, other names. bit.ly/3nQpeWw
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Ofc Owens apologized at some point for crying & Judge Mehta quickly told him that no apology was needed. He thanked each of the five witnesses for their statements & added words that were hard to hear from the gallery. (Victim impact statements are delivered from ...
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... the same microphone that attys use. The victims aren't sworn in and don't speak from the witness box. So they face away from the gallery. Their colloquy with the judge can be hard to hear.) ...
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Judge Mehta thanked the witnesses for their service and I thought he thanked one for his heroism but I may have made that up. Beside Dunn & Owens there were USCP special agent David Lazarus, then chamber asst Virginia Brown (about 19 yo at time) ...
/9 bit.ly/3MAsduB

and Terri McCullough then-chief of staff to Speaker Nancy Pelosi. Virginia Brown described sprinting through the halls to safety and taking her shoes off so she could run faster. She thanked the officers for protecting her. ...
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Incidentally, the media room is open, so we're on for live-tweeting.
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Also incidentally, and while we're waiting, here's some info on Stewart Rhodes's eye accident that I've never known what to do with. I asked @That_Girl_Tasha about it some time back. (Haven't obtained comment from Rhodes himself.) ...
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She says it happened in July 1991 shortly after she met him. She was told he dropped a derringer & it went off. Rhodes' mother told her in waiting room that the bullet "rattled around his eye socket and bounced out and around the front of the bone. ... " /13

... "it landed under the skin on the side of his head. They said no other damage." He left the hospital 7/4/91. Did she think it had any effect on him? "I've thought on that a lot," she said. It was only a few months into their relationship so she can't be sure ...
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... "He was certainly a controlling jerk before the accident," says @That_Girl_Tasha . "But I wonder if it didn't affect his impulse control and cause him to fully give in to his dark side." ...
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The hearing today is in courtroom 10 in the original, 1952-ish wing of the courthouse, which is Judge Mehta's usual courtroom. (The trial was in the new, 2005 annex, which is a beautiful Michael Graves building.) Rhodes, you may remember, has three lawyers. ...
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... Judge Amit Mehta now on the bench. ...

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Judge Mehta: Now discussing some technical issues about enhancement issues under the sentencing guidelines. the 3-level enhancement for "substantial interference of the due administration of justice]" ...
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... Judge is discussing how he to determine whether OKs "caused" what happened on J6.
"I think this is a circumstances were a strict but-for test is not required in order to carry out purposes of sentencing commission. ... Causation cause met in this case ...
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and therefore the 3-level enhancement will be applicable in this and the other matters."
Now discussing enhancements for defendants who exercised some control over other defendants or co-conspirators. ...
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He thinks "control" has to be an element in determining whether a defendant exercises supervision over other defendants. So he'll apply that analysis to each defendant.
Now discussing "restitution." Controlling case is this one:
supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/…
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Judge is not going to resolve this issue today.
Judge: my question ... is whether any restitution award is limited to damage to East Capitol and Columbus Doors. If so, what portion of that are they responsible for? Total cost north of $40K. But lots of other ...
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... [rioters] played a role in that damage ...
Judge: let me give you a preview of how we'll proceed today. ... I'll turn to factual disputes in presentence-investigation report. then i'll hear arguments about scope of "offense conduct" attributable to Rhodes. ...
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Then i'll provide you with guidelines calculations as i see them. Then we'll hear "allocutions" ... then sentencing.
Atty James Lee Bright: we have reviewed the pre-sentence report with [Rhodes].
Judge: lot of disputes over facts as described in the presentence report. ...
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[The probation department writes the presentence report. it's not public.]
Judge: 1st category: defense claim that evidence showed no conspiracy to oppose transfer of power after election. that's contrary to what the jury found.
[Judge now reviewing evidence to that effect.]
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Judge: there's also a defense claim that QRFs [quick reaction forces--the arsenals in VA hotels] were to be defensive forces. ... Abundant evidence form which jury concluded otherwise.
[Judge now reviewing a sampling of that evidence.]
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*from* not "form"

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Judge: Contention by defense that Rhodes's statements about using force on J6 were bombast ... abundant evidence from which jury could conclude otherwise.
[now reviewing some of that evidence.]
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Judge: defense makes contention that Rhodes did not instruct OK Kelly Meggs or other OKs to enter Capitol. ... Judge says there's abundant evidence to contrary.
[reviews some of that evidence.]
Judge: defense points out that gun purchases were legal. True but beside the point.

purpose of buying the guns was to oppose authority of the US and to create an arsenal for that purpose. ...
[judge reciting evidence to that effect, including things cooperating OK Joshua James said in his guilty plea statement.]
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Judge now says that contention that Rhodes ordered others to delete evidence based on instructions from girlfriend/general counsel Kelly SoRelle "doesn't pass the laugh test." Judge mentions Rhodes' own Yale Law School education and improbability of his taking orders from ...
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SoRelle.
Judge: Ok. That's out of the way. now let's talk about scope of conduct and application of guidelines.
AUSA Kathryn Rakoczy: scope of related conduct question. in definition of "relevant conduct" encompasses defendant's acts & those of others in
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within the scope of the jointly taken criminal activity and reasonably foreseeable conduct. ... all harm that resulted from defendants' acts or those of others who engaged in that joint activity.
for these 9 defendants, govt says each engaged in jointly undertaken
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criminal activity. Encompasses all the acts of these co-conspirators.
Rhodes presents much easier question. he's leader of this conspiracy. how he exercised control, instigated this conspiracy--court has already made findings of fact that he implicitly and explicitly directed/34

line 1 (14 people) and line 2 (5 people in stack formations) to enter the Capitol that day. ... and also [creating] the QRFs ...
Rakoczy continues: "substantial interference in administration of justice": Chief Judge Howell found in Rubenacker that it was ludicrous to think
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that participants in riot did not participate in interference in administration of justice. we think facts support that [Rhodes led] at least 30 individuals to Capitol. ... substantial expenditures on part of govt to prosecute ... involvement of various LE agencies ...
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that worked thru the night.
Judge: seems to me to be too much to focus on cost of prosecution as opposed to costs to rectify the conduct--the costs to rectify the defs obstruction.
Rakoczy: don't know how govt LE agencies could not have launched a prosecutorial effort
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in light of the ongoing threat. but even putting that aside, we've put in cost estimates for the cleanup. ... testimony about monstrous efforts to clear the building J6 and how hard that was & how many hours that took. may not be a $$ amount but that alone constitutes
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substantial interference.
Rakoczy continuing: moving on, next issue: leadership enhancement. court looking for some evidence of "control" here. hierarchy does play a role. it's our position that all 9 of these defs did play a hierarchical role here. ...
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Rhodes was at top. founder of OKs and president, leader for life. ... you heard from cooperators that they believed there was a specific hierarchy. Dolan spoke about a team that reported up thru harrelson to Meggs to Rhodes. ... Bennie Parker said he was recruited by Watkins
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and then listened to her about bringing guns. ... Ways Roberto Minuta led 2d group. Ed Vallejo led his QRF team at hotel. ...
from our perspective this is a leadership structure. some level of enhancement appropriate across this case [for all 9 defs]. Rhodes the actual leader/41

Rhodes own words explicitly state his view that he was leader.
He was at top , there were state and regional leaders, rank and file after that.
Siekerman and Greene in overall charge of operations on J6 ... everyone bringing a team ... but with himself at top.
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Rhodes approved aspects of operation. Meggs discussed with him the QRF ... Rhodes: "we will have a QRF, the situation calls for it." Rhodes is approving Meggs operational proposal.
Judge: Must enhancement be either 4, 3 or zero?
Rakoczy: that's our reading.
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[Leaders/organizers get 4 point enhancement; supervisors/managers get 3-point enhancement.]

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Rakoczy now turning to terrorism enhancement.
R: where defs convicted of seditious conspiracy to stop transfer or presidential power -- hard to not see that as terrorism ... "calculated or intended to result in coercion or intimidation of the govt."
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... [see Note 4 below.] guidelines.ussc.gov/gl/%C2%A73A1.4

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Rakoczy: we disagree with Mr. Woodward (for Meggs) that there's got to be either a 12-point enhancement or nothing. we think you can apply less than 12 levels. The 6-level enhancement is half of the 12 that couldve been imposed. this group did not cause loss of life.
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... but organizing force across the river comes pretty close. hard to forget chilling words of Rhodes on J10 about ~I should have called in the qrf on J6.~ this is terrorism. it's not blowing up a bldg, but in light of threat of harm & historic nature of attempting to stop
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certification of an election for the 1st time in american history, 6-point terrorism enhancement is appropriate.
I have thoughts about why a sentence of 25 yrs is appropriate that i can address at the end.
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Atty James Lee Bright (for Rhodes): I'd like to address one substantial objection we'd still have regarding a finding in the pre-sentence report. wanted to clarify our position on this. We still say there was no conspiracy as found. ... want to address issue of
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this phone call. you found it earlier in the case that it was implausible and troubling that there was no a communication that would've led Meggs to take next step of going up steps. we'd dispute that comms was made by Rhodes for Meggs to do that. that undercuts concept
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that there was a conspiracy to go inside. ... testimony of govt also shows that phone call--whether good connection or not--i'd point to testimony of jason dolan. govt cites dolan. but if mr. dolan is to be believed, he along with harrelson, having met Rhodes for 1st time
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ever after leaving capitol that day, he overheard mr. meggs tell rhodes that he went into the bldg, it was dolan's testimony that rhodes looked at him and said, 'that's pretty stupid.' ... we have 2 other individuals who were part of the 3-person call ...
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Michael Greene testified. waived his 5th amendment rights. and Mr. Greene testified he was standing next to Rhodes ... also heard Rhodes say, "that was pretty fuckin stupid." i think fact that independent witness have said under oath that Rhodes reaction directly
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contradicts assertion that there was a phone call at which Rhode told Meggs to enter the Capitol.
Judge: i remember the testimony well. more equivocal than what you've described ... i've gone back and looked back at it. ... but let me ask you this. do you contend that ...
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Mr. Meggs was freelancing? if there was anybody in this saga who seemed to adhere to the hierarchical org of this group would have done something so dramatic as leading half a dozen people into capitol without full understanding that that's what Rhodes wanted him to do? ...
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And it happens immediately after that phone call ends. Man that's a big coincidence.
Bright: I agree it's a big coincidence ... [Bright now talking about St. Augustine and another religious figure I don't recognize.] ... If i didn't have any evidentiary basis at all I'd ...
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agree with court. but when i have 2 of 3 participants in the phone call and then i have a govt witness corroborating [this post-Capitol entry "pretty-fuckin' stupid" statement of Rhodes ... using Occam's razor, which is more likely scenario?
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... Bright (for Rhodes) continuing: ... nobody ever could've predicted that that crowd on east steps would have the Columbus Door open from the inside at that moment. that's not something anyone ever predicted.
Now to your question, whether Meggs decided sua sponte to just
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go in there on his own--that i dont know. i'll never know. but i do know he was admonished for it. ...
Now Phil Linder (another Rhodes lawyer): one thing nobody has talked about is what did Rhodes do and Greene do after the phone call. Rhodes & Greene are military guys
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If Rhodes told Meggs, this is our chance, go in. don't you think he'd have called Vallejo and said, this is it, bring in the guns? ... At one point OKs had 30-40K members. if he'd wanted to stop certification illegally--Rhodes being military guy--...
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why would the guns be outside the Capitol? don't you think he'd have followed up with bringing in other people? none of that happened. why send meggs and rag-tag group in without reinforcements.
No orders or plans by OKs to go into capitol that day. ...
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[All this discussion about the phone call is a 3-way call between Rhodes, Meggs, and Michael Greene that took place just moments before Meggs led 14 OKs up Capitol steps and into Capitol.]
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Bright (for Rhodes) now speaking again: now discussing terrorism enhancement. We stand by objections we've made (in papers). The guidelines note says court "may" do this. I'd respectfully say that court can issue a punishment that will be sufficient without that "moniker" ...
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and without specifically reaching that question.
Now Rhodes's 3d lawyer, Edward Tarpley, is talking. He's making a claim that there's no evidence Rhodes wanted to stop the counting of the votes. Rhodes was not a general on the battlefield. he was man committed to ...
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doing best thing to preserve liberty in this country that day. Rhodes was aghast at his people entering the capitol that day.
Judge Mehta taking 15-min break.
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[Tarpley, remember, entered the case very late in the game, just a few weeks before trial. He was apparently brought in by Rhodes in an effort to derail the case; he sought appointment of a special master, a severance, and a postponement of trial. He also accused the other
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Rhodes' attys, Linder and Bright--who'd been very professionally rep'ing Rhodes since Rhodes arrest--of having poorly represented Rhodes to that point. Tarpley appears to be more of a "movement" type lawyer. In any case, he played a very minimal role at trial & his ...
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relationship with Rhodes' other 2 lawyers has sometimes appeared to be strained.
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Judge Mehta back on bench.

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Judge: 2 important issues. 1. mr. rhodes stands convicted of seditious conspiracy. 2. the facts i recited yesterday -- not going to recite again today -- all those facts and inferences i drew yesterday (with one exception) i'm incorporating into the record.
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some broad strokes of my findings by preponderance of evidence. Mr. R was convicted of leading conspiracy to oppose by force lawful transfer of power after 2020 election. ... because Mr. R position at top of hierarchy of Oks and conduct and actions & words i ascribe actions
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of all his coconspirators to him as well. ... in furtherance of conspiracy and reasonably foreseeable. he used violent imagery and language, drew comparisons to american revolution & civil war to inspire use of force ... signal messages & actions of coconspirators showed
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mutual understanding that force might be required. ...common understanding that force might be used to oppose transfer of power including on J6 itself. he and coconspirators brought weapons to area. fact never brought into city does not defeat reason he brought them

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ample evidence of consciousness of guilt. sought to cover his own actions and those of coconspirators. within 48 hrs told everyone on Old Leadership Chat to delete signal chats and "shut the fuck up." why else? ...
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with respect to question whether Rhodes gave an order: i suspect jury did not find you guilty of conspiracy to obstruct (1512k) because of some confusion about what was said in that phone call. that's not where we are. not making findings beyond reasonable doubt. ...

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it was reasonably foreseeable to rhodes that people were going in. he wouldve known objective that day was to resist transfer of power. when things went to hell at capitol he didn't tell people to stay at bay. he told them come to me, i'm on south side of capitol.
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why do that if he didn't know they'd join the melee? it defies explanation. why would he order & bring another 30 people to capitol if he didn't want them to go in. just not plausible.
it was reasonably foreseeable to him that people wouldve entered the bldg, use force

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once within the bldg. clearly foreseeable. no doubt in my mind.
closer question: whether i can conclude by preponderance of evidence that he in fact approved their entry into capitol. Mr. Bright, you're right, there's evidence could cause a reasonable jury to question that.

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but here's what other evidence showed. this was extremely hierarchical organization. rhodes was one giving orders. organizing teams. he was the reason they were in DC on J6. ... given that i find it hard to believe Meggs wouldve led those people in there without green

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light from Rhodes. why? 1., hierarchical relationship. 2. testimony at trial: Meggs was trying to get ahold of somebody and thought it was Rhodes. a 2d witness said Meggs was contemplating whether to go in. then Caleb Berry said Meggs said: we're going in to stop the vote.
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i don't ascribe Meggs ability to do that without clearing it with Rhodes. ... Rhodes not only knew but in some sense authorized it.
after J6, true testimony from dolan that he heard rhodes say "that was pretty stupid." exact testimony was a little equivocal.

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... Dolan-- 'i believe he was talking to kelly at the time but i'm not 100% sure.' Greene's testimony: somebody mentioned somebody by name and said they went in and stewart said that was fucking stupid. so some evidence.
but compare that to what he said afterward. ...
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not once did Rhodes say on signal chats that he regretted people going in. not once. then there's consciousness of guilt. ... not just protecting others; protecting self. he's Yale Law grad, pretty smart guy.
i find he knew and approved entry into capitoil.
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as to "due administration of justice" ... essence of seditious agreement represented threat to threat to others and members of congress. arsenal on other side of potomac ... conspiracy contemplated use of force ... threatened physical harm to staff members of speaker ...

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Rhodes responsible for actual injuries to certain officers & threatened injuries ... to officers Salke and Carrion near the east rotunda door. officer christopher owens and others in senate hallway who faced def watkins. officers jackson and martha lazzo who
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were object of Joshua James's assault. ... threats to Pelosi staffers cowering in fear in conference room when [meggs & others were outside]
proceedings were adjourned for some period of time. that's substantial interference with administration of justice. it was obstructed

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additional costs in terms of cleanup and additional Secret Service personnel that had to come to capitol.
substantial planning for events of J6. even if just take timing from 12/19 forward. ... hotels, bringing weapons, creating groups. ...
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they way people entered in a line -- whether you call it stack or not -- that shows organization and planning.
Rhodes was top of chain. not just founder & leader. OKs don't come to DC on J6 but for Mr. Rhodes. ... he directed coconspirators to capitol & they abided.
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He told them to come to capitol. ... There was testimony that he would have been the one to say whether to bring the arms in [to DC]. he referred to Minuta as "one of my most trusted men" suggesting control. he designated siekerman & greene & meggs as operational leaders.

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so 4-level enhancement for leadership applies. not a close call.
the 6-level enhancement for terrorism--definition of seditious conspiracy meets that. ... their objective was to affect conduct of govt thru intimidation & coercion by means of force.
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In terms of levels. i disagree that it's an all or nothing proposition. [i.e., 12 levels or nothing]. it only establishes a cap, not a floor. I think the 6 levels is appropriate. how do i get there? this is separate and more serious conduct than what's captured by guideline.
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this is an additional level of planning and targeting of institutions of american democracy at its most important point--its transfer of power. that's what jury found and i agree with them.
a 6-level enhancement is appropriate.
what all of that means-- 3 other things
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defense has requested 2 level reduction for acceptance of responsibility. I [reject] that. Mr. R's comments since J6 ... clearly demonstrate no acceptance of responsibility.
defense has requested downward departure for military service. ...
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doesn't apply here. R served country but not to an unusual degree. i'm not going to say there weren't charitable purposes that OKs [sometimes] undertook. but not extraordinary and doesn't eclipse what happened on J6.
...
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guidelines calculation is for seditious conspiracy: treason is analog but conduct not "tantamount to waging war" so all in agreement that guideline [begins with obstruction of justice] ...
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base offense is 14. 8-level enhancement for causing or threatening injuyr. 3 -levels for interference ... etc etc ... total offense level of 39
guideline range: 262-327 months
Rakoczy: govt asking 25 yrs incarceration. in middle of applicable guidelines court just found

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Rakoczy continued: court has just found [what he did] is terrorism. conduct that threatened and continues to threaten rule of law in the US. ... one of great tragedies to see ordinary americans turn into criminals on J6. ... Rhodes along with 8 codefs played leadership role

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he inspired more than 30 americans to travel across country to oppose by force election results from becoming final. ...
100s of people followed OKs web site where he placed open letters essentially calling for revolution against the US. ...
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i'd like to focus on his attempts to radicalize his coconspirators. he doggedly drilled the lie of election fraud and false need to act like founding fathers to save constitution & country. witness after witness told us they were lost in 2020 ... former or aspiring
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military members. you heard how Rhodes capitalized at their [weaknesses] ... he gave their anger a direction. plotted to exploit them ... seeking to radicalize and lead others in seditious conspiracy ... needed for general deterrence & critically to ensure respect for rule

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of law. ... theme running thru this case is Rhodes view that his view of the law is supreme. that is vigilantism ... fatal to our system of govt.
long sentence also demanded by goal of specific deterrence. ...
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J6 neither 1st nor last time he will seek to organize political violence. ... he's been calling for violent [resistance] to govt for well over a decade. ... he continues to advocate for political violence. ... from jail. just 4 days ago he addressed by phone

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a 'freedom corner rally' ... warned those in attendance "they're going to keep coming after those on political right. it's a terror campaign against political opposition. it's not going to stop till it's stopped we're going to have to stop it. it's going to take regime change."

Most of us want to believe J6 was an outlier. Not defendant Rhodes ... the court should and must impose sentence of 25 years.
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Atty Phil Linder (Rhodes): this court has sat thru 3 jury trials ... you've read all the presentence reports ... you have good grasp of evidence as you see it. ... no magic witness i can bring to change your mind ...
i think what happened on J6 was deplorable. ...
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... however govt wants you to sentence rhodes out of fear. fear he'll do it again. they want to make Rhodes the face of J6. ... want 25 yr sentence. nothing has come close to that. go back to election in november. rhodes is upset as are millions of americans.

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Rhodes didn't plan events in nov, dec, or J6. he's a participant. they want to say Rhodes caused this. Rhodes did not cause this. court and public needs to look at who caused this. ... wasn't rhodes. he was participant. he didn't create all of that.
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he didn't start million MAGA march (11/14), Jericho March (12/12) , or J6. ... if he'd been called away, J6 would still have happened. ... want to put a face on J6, put it on Trump, right-wing media, politicians ... Rhodes just participant. didn't create it.

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of 450-some odd people sentenced, on 17 people have gotten 60 months or more. Peter Schwartz--got 170 months-- he had 38 priors & assaulted police officers. Tom Webster -- 120 months. assaulted police. Guy Reffitt -- 87 months.
the assaultive person is the dangerous person.
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not the person who runs at the mouth and riles people up. if you give Rhodes 25 years, does it box court into giving the cooperators 15 years?
AUSA Nestler mentions Patrick McCaughey, Webster, and Albuquerque Head ... convicted of violent assaults. says none were conspiracy
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all the previous seditious conspiracy cases involved people plotting to kill americans. Rahman, Khan, Al-Timimi, Battle, Ford, Batiste.
Rhodes didn't plot to kill americans.
no criminal history.
i'd ask for sentence of less than 60 months. sentences of more than 60 have
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been reserved for those who engaged in assaults. i'd ask that people not sentence rhodes out of fear but for how his actions fit into everything that happened that day.
Bright now letting Rhodes speak on his own behalf

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Rhodes: start by saying i'm a political prisoner. like pres. trump and my only crime is opposing those who are destroying our country. ... using protected speech because of systemic violence of left to shut down speech of trump supporters. ... started at the trump inauguration

we started protecting vulnerable trump supporters from attack by antifa ... none of them was ever prosecuted to my mind ... obviously seditious conspiracy trying to stop transfer of power (to trump). we've protected people outside trump rallies from antifa ...
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antifa like to have unarmed victims. ... [now giving alleged examples] we stepped up across country to protect unarmed or elderly back to their vehicles. shouldn't have to do that in this country. repeated systemic examples ... one in Berkeley ... transgender trump supporter
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attacked. we stepped in. did so peacefully. we deterred antifa. ... that's been our focal point. unlike characterization of southern poverty law center. our people are nonviolent. ... zero record of actual use of force. we deter like other groups--unlike Proud Boys--who

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seek out street violence.
in DC we did [many] security operations without incidents, without a hitch. give our people option to wear helmets and body armor because antifa stabs people, throw bottles, [other things].
on J6 i did not go inside. nor did i expect anyone else
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to. i'd just spoke at Latinos for Trump rally about block north. when i was standing at NE corner of capitol, that's where next event was going to be for ali alexander.
kelly meggs team was escorting people from ellipse to ali alexander's event.
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my concern was they would get caught up in turmoil outside capitol. ... wanted to make sure they didn't get caught up. that's why i said 'if anyone is not still on duty come to us.' when they did come to me, they said they'd gone inside and i said that was stupid.

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mr greene was actually in charge of assigning the teams that day. i never take personal leadership unless i have no choice. greene is retired police officer. i put good men in charge, trust them to do right thiing. on J6 saw a problem. saw a riot happening. ...

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didn't want our guys to be part of it. so i said, 'come to me.' wanted them to be with mr. greene and me. to keep our guys from being caught up with that.
josh james was with team protecting roger stone ... didn't want them caught up with this. no OK took part in any

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of the fighting. no OK punched anyone, kicked anyone, pepper sprayed them, struck them with stun gun. worst thing an OK did that day--jessica watkins pushed in senate hallway. she was leading her own little militia. other one was josh james. he lost his military bearing ...
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[feel for the police who testified yesterday]. none of us caused that. bizarre to hear all that. find it offensive frankly. this has been. a surreal experience. feel i'm the lead character is Kafka's The Trial. ...
[now objecting to characterization of OKs as ...

/124

white supremacists] ... find that very offensive. ... all meant to smear the Trump supporters. and link them to the KKK--which was a Democrat organization. ...
the OKs--the NYT blames the OKs and PBs. they hate us because we stopped the violence in the street and they don't
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like that.
Judge: I'm going to ask you to wrap up ...
Rhodes: ... after i said we need "regime change" [in interview 4 days ago] I said I hoped Trump won in 2024. Rakoczy took that out of context. ...
Every J6-er is political prisoner. all being grossly overcharged.
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it's not going to deter people. it's going to make people even more [angry with the govt].
[Rhodes now talking about the TX v. PA original suit in Supreme Court ... claiming constitutional problems.]
i cannot ignore text of constitution under my oath. ...

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characterizing trump supporters as racists or fools is not going to help. ... Rhodes says he is the "american solzhenitsyn to expose the criminality of this administration."
Rhodes done.
Judge: Short break.

/128

For those without a calculator, the guidelines that Judge Mehta has found to apply to Rhodes—262 to 327 months—come to 21 yrs 10mos to 27 yrs 3 months. Those were the guidelines the govt sought. Thus, its recommended sentence, 25 yrs, was toward middle of his guidelines.
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Judge Mehta back on bench.
(Note that max for seditious conspiracy is 20 yrs, so to achieve 25 he would have to impose some consecutive sentences.)
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Judge Mehta : ... guidelines: 262 to 327 months ...
beginning with disparities: defense has rightly brought forward compilation of other sentences in J6 cases. most serious was 14+ yrs. next most serious 10 yrs. both involved serious assaultive conduct.

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don't find those cases to be useful comparators. none convicted of conspiracy let alone seditious.
have considered 2 things tho.
seditious conspiracy sentences in other cases ... as you've pointed out some involved actual targeting and killing of americans. ...

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also considering need for proportionality with other members of this conspiracy.
... Mr. R, you were convicted of seditious conspiracy. you are a lawyer, you understand what that means. for those who are not: it's true neither R nor conspirator used weapon against

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a police officer that day. here's what supreme court has said:
collective agreement presents greater danger to public than individual criminal conduct ...
Callanan v. US 364 US 587 ...
supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/…
/134

the danger a conspiracy creates not confined to [facts that occur]
seditious conspiracy ... at start of civil war ... treason was primary tool available but constitution defined that narrowly. congress enacted statutes ... seditious conspiracy is among most serious crimes

/135

an american can commit. offense against the people of the country. it's not confined to one day. actions of one day. it's a series of acts in which you and others committed to use force including potentially with weapons against govt of US as it transitioned from

/136

from one president to another. what was motive? you didn't like the new guy. i get it. let me be clear. ... we don't paint with a broad brush. shame on you if you do. just because you support former president doesn't mean your white supremacist. you voted for other guy ...

/137

but what we cannot have, absolutely cannot have is group of citizens who because they didn't like outcome of eleciton or because they didn't think law was carried out way they think it should be were prepared to take up arms to foment a revolution. that's waht you did..
/138

those are your words not mine. you're not a political prisoner. you're here because 12 jurors in DC who acquitted you of multiple counts found you guilty of sedition. jury of your peers. make no mistake.
2 enduring impacts of J6 ... now all hold our breaths every time

/139

an election approaches.
otehr enduring legacy is what we saw yesterday: heroism, of police officers and people working on capitol hill that day to protect this democracy as we know it. they laid their bodies on the line.
/140

you talk about keeping oaths? nobody more emblematic than those police officers, Mr. Rhodes. their heroism, stamina, courage--but for their acts couldn't have been far blacker day than one already one of blackest of this country.
/141

now talk about history and characteristics of defendant.
Rhodes now 58.
wife , 6 kids.
educated accomplished man.
served country. UNLV summa cum laude (?)
yale law school. clerked for AZ Supreme Court ...
founding of OKs? i don't consider it white supremacist or racist ... /142

they have been civic minded in some instances. have helped after hurricanes. none of that's in dispute.
none to be questioned. not my job to pass judgment on OKs org, but to pass judgment on Rhodes, founder of that org. regrettably ... many of these positive attributes

/143

have been turned against the US govt. there's been a history of this. OKs have been involved in standoffs with govt ... bundy ranch. ... i was chilled by your remarks at that time ... 'it was going to be sheepdog versus sheepdog that day, bloodbath that day."

/144

... reflected in your personal life ... it's a pattern ... i daresay ... [said something about life sentence?] ... you sir represent an ongoing threat to this country and ... compelling figure. that's what makes you dangerous. ... anyone think Joe Hackett would come to DC

/145

without you? no. only because of you ... everyone you conspired with, called to DC, they too are victims. victims of lies, propaganda, rhetoric, intention that you conveyed and they agreed to and shared. it was one thing if after J6 you'd looked at what happened and said

/146

that was not a good day for our democracy. but you celebreated it. you told alpers you're only regret was you should have brought the weapons. could've hanged nancy pelosi from a lamppost. didn't sound like you were just there for a security detail.
/147

you recently said in an interview that 2020 election not only stolen but taken by unc'l means ... you said you had to find a way to fix that ... l
nothing has changed. moment you are released you'll be prepared to take up arms against your govt. because you think that's

/148

appropriate way to find redress ... i'm not making this up ... you said under oath ...
Q. you and OKs were prepared to take steps to alter or abolish this govt ?
A. prepared to take steps, walk founders' path, yes. i hope that conflict can be avoided. i really do. ...

/149

but when govt steps outside constitution, puts you in a bad place. ...
Judge continuing: when you find yourself in a bad place, rest of us are too. we're all objects of your wilingness to engage in violence. we just cannot have that in this country.
/150

you are committed to custody of [Bureau of Prisons] for *216 months -- 18 years* ... on counts 1, 3, and 7

/151

Judge Mehta discussing other conditions after he reaches after supervised release.
But SENTENCE IS 18 YEARS.
/152

So previous high sentence was 170 months (Peter Schwartz).
Stewart Rhodes is sentenced to almost 4 years more: 216 months
/153

Judge Mehta's final words: Mr. Rhodes, good luck to you.
Adjourned.
[I think we're resuming at 1:30pm for Kelly Meggs' sentencing hearing.]
/154

The start of Kelly Meggs' sentencing has been postponed to 1:45pm.

/155

Judge Mehta back on bench for the sentencing hearing for FL OK Kelly Meggs.

/156

Judge Mehta reviewing procedure. Begin with factual disputes with the presentencing reports. then applications for enhancements and departures. His guidelines calculations. Then allocutions by attys and then opportunity for Kelly Meggs to speak.
/157

[To remind everyone, Meggs was convicted of 5 of 6 counts, including the top count, seditious conspiracy. The govt's computation of his guidelines, before terrorism enhancement, would be 135-168 mos. After a 4-level terror enhancement proposed by govt, they'd be 210-262 mos.
/158

[Govt is seeking 21 years (252 mos) for Meggs. Obviously, he won't get that, given that Rhodes was sentenced to 18 years (216 months). ]
/159

Judge Mehta now going through Meggs' objections to the presentence report.
Defense contention that Meggs didn't interfere with police. Mehta cites evidence from which jury could conclude he did.
Defense contention that Meggs didn't join conspiracy. Mehta finds he did.
/160

Defense contention: Meggs didn't agree to Rhodes' call to action. Mehta finds there was evidence from which jury could infer he did.
etc. ...
Defense: Meggs did not coordinate with other militia groups. Mehta: probably fair--no clear coordination among militia groups ...
/161

Defense: objections to characterization of QRFs. jury rejected those.
Defense: statement about Speaker Pelosi evening of J6 about ("we looked for her")--Mehta: statement is what it is.

/162

Now discussing the "scope of related conduct."
AUSA Jeff Nestler: govt submits meggs' conduct is coterminus with the conspiracy. his conduct before j6 & on J6 in terms of organizing and leading this group. appointed by Rhodes to be leader of FL group. took that role on &
/163

ran with it. He also coordinated with other groups -- like Watkins group from OH. on J6 Meggs was in charge of group from ellipse to capitol. Caleb Berry testified that Meggs told us we were going to go in that building and try to stop the vote count. ...
/164

when they got to top of steps. meggs waved people forward.
Atty Stanley Woodward for Meggs: My objections to govt's characterization probably not going to be material. we acknowledge jury's verdict. ...
/165

the conspiracy alleged was wrong and overreaching. ... a theme in this trial is that there was no plan. no plan to go into the bldg. we respect jury found that when he went into bldg that purpose was criminal. doesn't change fact that there wasn't evidence of that

/166

kind of claim.
there was no formal appointment [of meggs]. former leader of FL OKs resigned but continued to host calls. I could not say Meggs did not acknowledge self as leader of FL OKs but what that actually means is still subject to debate. His leadership was short-lived
/167

He resigned from OKs after J6. does not retain any affiliation with OKs.
With respect to telling OKs to go in--belied by fact that not all OKs went inside. Mr. Cummings went to bathroom and when he got back the others were gone.
Caleb Berry--we disagree with veracity

/168

of his testimony. awfully coincidental he didn't testify in first trial--megg's trial--but only in 2d (and 3d).
for purposes of sentencing, govt's continued characterization of what happened that day is something we take issue with.
/169

Judge Mehta: now going to make factual findings about joint criminal activity for which Meggs will be held responsible. Meggs convicted of multiple conspiracies, seditious conspiracy. My findings yesterday [are repeated here]. not going to go into same detail.
/170

just going to hit the highlights.
1st, meggs was effectively Rhodes 1st deputy with respect to the charged conspiracy. perhaps not with respect to OKs overall, but with respect to the charged conspiracy.
seditious conspiracy to oppose by force the transfer of power ...
/171

might not say that Josh James's activity inside capitol was foreseeable but i don't know that that's material for mr. meggs.
violence to prevent biden from taking office foreseeable. at GoToMeeting Rhodes called for violence. Meggs didn't leave. ...
/172

"This is moment we signed up for"--not a reference to security details. ... Meggs Signal comms from 12/19 forward are indicative. "Real question is who's willing to die." "we need to surround capitol with patriots ... scare the hell out of them" "we need Trump ...
/173

there's going to blood in the streets no matter what."
Not boasting, not hyperbole or rhetoric. jury took it seriously and i do as well.
Meggs was key organizer in op coming to DC. he was FL lead. actively planned with others in OH. transportation, hotels, weapons. ...
/174

... Coordinated with Paul Stamey about QRF at Comfort Inn. Brought many weapons to QRF in his truck. Key organizer and contributor of weapons to the QRF. His role in that respect can't really be disputed.
fact weapons never brought into city does not defeat
/175

conspiratorial plan to bring those weapons into the city if needed.
... Mr. Dolan's testimony: guns in his view ... would be used even if Insurrection Act invoked to prepare for pro-Trump versus Pro-Biden violence--street warfare in essence.
/176

Little doubt Meggs was leader of group that entered Capitol. Caleb Berry testified: Meggs was leader. there was testimony that Meggs was trying to reach Rhodes on way to Capitol. Scope of that conduct included Ms. Watkins' conduct. all entered together. Isaacs 1st thru door
/177

but Meggs appears to be motioning OKs through the door. ... they were not waiting for a security detail at the stop of the steps. given meggs height he could see officers struggling to keep rioters at bay ... meggs making no attempt to assist officer salke or carrion who

/178

were doing best to guard the doors and keep people out.
once inside Meggs led group to hallway outside Speaker's suite ... [while staffers hiding inside] ... in evening hours of J6, someone wrote: we were hoping to see Nancy's head rolling down stairs and Meggs responded,

/179

"We looked for her."
Evidence Meggs continued to believe in conspiratorial objective after J6. ... best exemplified by his response as to whether he'd join Rhodes in TX and his response was: FL won't leave until shots fired.
Meggs deleted his signal app from phone
/180

after learning that Watkins and Crowl and Caldwell were indicted. Meggs and Harrelson then consulte3d with each other about deleting signal app. suggests consciousness of guilt. augurs for 8-level enhancement for interference with due admininstration of justice. that

/181

includes the certification proceedings. scheme to bring weapons to outskirts of DC ... posed threat to members of congress. threatened in jury to the officers as he and cohort came thru doors. threat to speaker pelosi's staff. responsible to destruction of property to

/182

east capitol doors in the 3d trial. so there's preponderance of evidence supporting responsibility for that damage. Also played role in causing adjournment of proceeding. caused cleanup costs.
2-level enhancement for extensive scope of planning.
/183

bringing people, weapons to VA on J6, and then leading people to Capitol on J6.
I do believe by preponderance of evidence you were directed to go into that bldg by mr. rhodes. don't believe you went in there without his green light.
/184

even if conversation with rhodes happened just months before, extensive planning went back months.
as far as 4-level enhancement for leadership--ample evidence he was organizer or leader of 5 or more participants. easily satisfied here. not just his title, but he actually

/185

led in meaningful way. communication with Berry ... communication with members in late Dec about potential need to direct violence toward members of congress ... organized travel, QRF at Comfort Inn. contributed to QRF.
as to element of control -- his direction of people
/186

in line one into capitol. his attempt to contact Rhodes. i think Rhodes gave him order and Meggs carried it out.
not all went in, but that doesn't negate fact that he led a number of others in that day. into rotunda and then toward house speakers suite.
/187

given seditious conspiracy conviction and also 1512k conviction: these are both sufficient to meet terrorism enhancement. Meggs conduct "calculated" to influence or affect conduct of govt by coercion or intimidation. Govt asks for 4-level enhancement; i'm going to give him

/188

3. to show that Rhodes, who got 6, stands apart. Rhodes is intellectual leader. not absolving Meggs of responsibility but it's because of Rhodes that Meggs is sitting here today. rhodes culpability is worthy of greater enhancement, so i've halved the number of levels .

/189

there are ample messages from meggs in late dec period in which he is clearly providing encouragement, direction and support emotinoally &others to others. not to same extent as Rhodes but he was certainly doing some of that.

/190

there's the video of the urban warfare training. i understand it wa slegal when done, but what happened later may put it in a different light. you were prepared to use a long gun in an urban center. instructor said long guns were offensive weapons.

/191

you and your cohorts brought a lot of long guns to the QRF.
Meggs does not qualify for the acceptance of responsibility.
Guidelines calculations for Meggs:

/192

total offense severity: 33 + 3 for terrorism enhancement: 36
188 mos to 238 months & fine of $40K+
Atty Woodward: i want to make record, our position is that because jury did not check 2d box for seditious conspiracy the jury did not find [the prevent hinder & delay prong]
/193

Your point is noted. i disagree with it. instructions were quite clear jury only needed to find guilt to one prong so fact jury didn't check 2d box doesn't mean they acquitted him of that conduct.
Judge calling for 15 minute break before "allocutions."
/194

So for those without a calculator: the guidelines Judge Mehta has calculated were 188-238 months, which includes a terror enhancement (2d in a J6 case, after Rhodes) but slightly less than govt sought. That's 15 yrs 8 mos to 19 yrs 10 mos. But, also remember, that ...
/195

Judge Mehta ended up going below his own calculation of the terror-enhanced guidelines with Rhodes (though well above the ordinary, non-terror enhanced guidelines).
/196

Judge Mehta back.

AUSA Nestler (govt's allocution): with possible exception of stewart rhodes Kelly Meggs was intellectual & moral leader of this conspiracy from Dec-jan 6. It was meggs telling OKs--do this or die. they had to do it. especially important for young,

/197

impressionable people like caleb berry. and jason dolan. they needed enough people. a dozen people might get arrested, but with significant numbers they could violently accomplish what they wanted to accomplish--stop the certification.
/198

as we get closer to J6, it was Meggs physically leading the group. led 14 people up steps and violently thru the door. Meggs arranged for firearms training and boasted on J5 about what is group was prepared to do. he was quarterbacking the QRF operation.

/199

Meggs was coordinated access to the guns. Meggs told Graydon Young he'd have extra AR-15 with Young's name on it.
on election night he told family if he went on shooting spree Pelosi would be first. confirmed on night of J6 that he looked for Pelosi.

/200

Caleb Berry testified about crowd: crowd parted out of way for OKs, chanting, "OKs, OKs." it was his feeling that crowd wanted to use OKs as battering ram to get in bldg. he felt what they were doing was justified based on what meggs was telling them. they had moral high

/201

ground. Meggs wearing patch that day "I'm just here for the violence." A patch FBI never located by the way.
after leaving bldg Meggs makes comments: we busted in. he sent harrelson's video of group busting in with caption "FL OKs take capitol."

/202

someone asked, what happens if House resumes tonight. He said, "we're going back." "we're not quitting, we're reloading."
Meggs not remorseful. has never expressed remorse. appeared on same recording Rhodes appeared on 4 days ago. meggs passed phone to rhodes.

/203

claimed 4 days ago he was innocent.
Rhodes put Meggs in position to be head of FL OKs when Mike Adams refused to do what Rhodes wanted. an incredibly significant sentence of incarceration is warranted. ... look what meggs accomploished in 1 month of leadership of FL OKs

/204

your honor already found 3 level enhancement for terrorism. we believe other upward variations warranted. we therefore ask your honor to vary upward to 21 yrs of incarceration.
Atty Stanley Woodward (Meggs): several members of meggs family here today ... sister crystal,
/205

brother marty, son zach.
sister crystal now speaks: difficult to be here. intimidating. but i got on a plane & came up here because i know what has been said. ... i've known [kelly] for almost 50 yrs. [crying] always been someone i looked up. i'm his little sister

/206

would always call him for advice. he never wouldn't give it. always answered the phone. also for others in family who relied on him a lot. mom diagnosed with brain tumor a few yrs ago. changed family quite a bit. my brother was my support during that time. we spoke daily

/207

he was tireless in doing everything for our family he could to get help for my mom. trying to get her into a brain cancer trial. most important thing he'd do was be there. he'd drive 1.5 hrs after work to be there with us. appreciate the time to tell you about the man i know
/208

he is extremely hard working dependable smart, unselfish man. that's who i know. who i've seen. he's 1st person to pull over & help complete stranger by side of road. embarrassed to say i'm not that person. most of all just want to remind you that he's a person.

/209

he has a family. we've missed him terribly. he's a giving person. he's always thinking of others. amazing provider for family. ... sorely missed by each one of us. has granddaughter hasn't even been ab le to know. just wanted to come here today to ask & let you know we love /210

him and miss him.
Judge: thank you for your remarks.
Zachary Meggs has written a letter which he'll now read.
Zachary Meggs (M's son): i'm 24 ... staying home with our mother & rest of family ... he put me thru college & employed me at his car dealership ...
/211

i've only ever heard or experienced positive things about my father. he held charity & community events when he ran honda. it's been over 2 yrs without [him] & he was crucial part of family unit. i've been blessed ... don't think we can afford to keep house much longer

/212

without my father ...cannot afford to keep or maintain it. these events have taught me how important he was in my life. little to no guidance outside 15 min phone calls i've been provided. he was not just financial guy to us. also provided guidance to me & sister

/213

i'm engaged right now & would really love to have my father at his wedding.
Wife Connie also wrote fairly lengthy letter to the court which I'm not going to read. because as her counsel it's not prudent for me to do so. i'll read intro:

/214

with deep regret i cannot attend my husband's sentencing ...
Woodward: what comes thru is the love she feels for her husband has not diminished in any way from all they've been through.
Meggs will now speak. I've advised him not to speak about specific events.

/215

Meggs: thank you for opp to talk to you. i truly apologize for being here ... i've spent 2.5 yrs [in prison]. destroyed my life and that of family. ... i told FBI the truth first time i was arrested. & i've continued to tell truth. i've lost retirement accounts. ...
/216

vehicles, cars, everything ...
torn away from family 828 days. i want to apologize to everyone i've disappointed and let down. [crying]. deepest regret pain i've caused my family. ... most of all my wife, suffereing incarceration and home confinement all because of me.
/217

[Connie was convicted, I believe, in the 3d trial.]
she spent her whole life volunteeering for homeless people at the church. ray of light in this world. single greatest thing that happened to me in this world.
to my son zach who gave up his life at college to take over

/218

family farm. i can never show enough gratitude. you and your efforts are only reason we still have a house today. you've risen to occasion. i love you & i'm sorry.
daughter danielle: i regret taking away your mother & best friend. regret i'm not there for birth of newest
/219

granddaughter eva. ... love you. sorry
to my two grandchildren carson & jenna ...
to my sister & brother, my mother ... & my father whose name i've worn with honor for 54 yrs i've brought nothing but ridicule and shame. assure you i will never do it harm again
/220

i've often compared what i did to a bank robbery. i was online ... hated my bank, talking on internet how much i hated them, even wanted bank robbed. suddenly bank was robbed. fbi opened investigation. even fact i wished for robbery ... but it wasn't me who robbed bank.

/221

i was just standing in line. would i be charged for conspiracy? ... no, they would see i was innocent.
i told you i told the truth. so here it is. i had no knowledge of any plan to go into capitol. entire case was built on presumption of such a plan.
there was no plan.
/222

even lead prosecutor kate rakoczy sent our atty email saying there was no evidence of a plan. govt changed its theory several times ... their witness had 20 aliases & something about being a russian spy ... changed plan to trying to take entire city of DC hostage ...

/223

then govt changed its plan to instantaneous mental plan formed on the steps ...
there was a plan in place that case. one described by thousands of text messages: the plan was a security detail. ... govt admitted it. i've been incarcerated for > 2yrs in some of worst jails
/224

in country. ... came thru it without one disciplinary report ... i caused no problems, committed no crime.
not here to argue the case. i'm here to be sentenced for crimes, some of which i did commit, some i didn't. my mistake was that i did not stick to plan. went up stairs
/225

heard someone ask for help ... we got swept inside. there was an officer fist-bumping people as we went into rotunda area. no one asked us to leave. once inside, i tried to help people. tried to assist officers. primarily ofc harry dunn. ... i've watched hours of footage
/226

of that gentleman over there--harry dunn. he was relentless that day. once he cleared people downstairs, he came upstairs. when we approached him he was out of breadth. he had fear in his eyes ...

/227

in his 302 he admitted we stood in front of him keeping the crowd away.
officer dunn, if my presence that day prevented you from doing your job that day i do apologize sir. when officer by door had traffic jam i tried to assist getting people out of the bldg. ...
/228

video shows i didn't look for anyone inside the bldg. i walked in the rotunda and just outside of the rotunda. i should not have been on capitol grounds that day. should never have put myself near those doors. ... sorrry to be involved in such an event that put such

/229

a black eye for our country. that patch-- i was not there to cause or instigate violence. i was there to keep violence from happening to anyone. that's what i'd done so many times before & that's what i was doing that day.
i realize my vile & hateful language is why
/230

i'm here today.
what i wrote was not fitting to person i am. on election night i made hateful comment about nancy pelosi. ... mine was just thought, vile comment. never wuold have it in my heart to harm another person.

/231

yesterday you made statement that on J3 i posted comment that a million of us should surround the capitol so they could hear us. that was not a plan to go in the capitol. that was plan to be at a stage cheering as a crowd. also understand my comments about juries in this

/232

town. i dont blame them for having bias. i would too if my town had been locked down for some violent event, but i still think it was biased.
i do not support the violence [that day] and if my presence assisted them in anyway i apologize.
ask you to have compassion & mercy

/233

compare my actions to what [you've seen by others]. i wasn't even there till 2 hrs after it started. i'm not what they say i was. i know you have multiple options for sentencing.
ask you to have mercy give me back to thing most important to me: my wife, children, grandchildren

Meggs done.
Stanley Woodward (eyes wet): today brings to a close an [era] ... [He thanks court staff. says he hopes prosecution team agrees that they can disagree without being disagreeable. thanks Judge Mehta for his tireless efforts and that of his clerks.]
i'd prepared

/235

remarks about facts in this case but don't think that's appropriate any more. this is culmination of a process our founders anticipated. 1st convictions of seditious conspiracy in [long time] because DOJ decided to label them with that scarlet letter.
/236

there's a reason that you have been entrusted with being that last check in our system of balances in our tripart system of govt.
you will no doubt appreciate when one takes on role of defense counsel one gets to know one's client. i don't believe mr. meggs is a terrorist

/237

i dont condone actions of any members of the riot that day. never thought i'd stand before you for defendant charged with among most serious conduct that day. but in exercising discretion you have i join Mr. Meggs & family in imploriing for leniency. you are permitted to

/238

find that Meggs is responsible for actions of his coconspirators, but you're not required to.
what i implore us to ask ourselves is to what end. mr. meggs is not stweart rhodes. he's not a risk , continuing risk to our society. he's a father, grandfather, husband. someone

/239

who got wrapped up & carried away in the events of J6.
the punishment you levy will no doubt be severe. but 15 yrs, 10 yrs -- it's not necessary in mr. meggs case. he's not a recidivist. he has no prior record. days & nights in solitary have given him opp to reflect

/240

on his conduct already. no disciplinary infractions ... entrusted by DC jail ... invited to do college courses ...
i'm reminded of movie Amadeus. mozart goes to emperor & pleads his case why symphony should be written in italian or [german]. Emperor says you are passionate

/241

but not persuadable. ... i am passionate [about this client] ...
Judge: thank you, let's take a break while I collect my thoughts. we'll be back in [a short period].

/242

Judge Mehta back on bench.

/243

Judge: Beginning with guidelines: 188-235 months. [I thought he said 238 before.]
... [he's reading statutory factors he's supposed to take into account when sentencing]
addressing issue of disparities. ... as i said earlier today i don't think other J6 cases are useful

/244

as comparators because none involve conspiracy let alone seditious conspiracy.
i have however considered other sentences in seditious conspiracy cases ... not only Rhodes's but also other sentences coming down the road to ensure proportionality.

/245

nature of circumstances of crime have been discussed ... Meggs says he was part of personal security detail ... only in Rotunda relatively short period of time ...
not directly involved in physical altercation with police but some of cohorts were ...

/246

i want to step back. ... to pause & reflect on 2 words. first is sedition. second is conspiracy.
quote was supreme court said about conspiracy in Palannon: ... concerted action increases likelihood that criminal purpose will be attained ... can accomplish an individual

/247

could not ... makes it more likely that crimes will be committed that are not immediate aim of the enterprise ...
sedition: ... statute goes back to early civil war ... to meet the emergency that war imposes congress enacted measures [just below] treason ...

/248

one of most serious offenses an American can stand convicted of ... jury found you were prepared to take up arms against your govt.
2 enduring legacies of J6: 1. impact on politics/elections. we now hold our collective breath that each election won't see such violence

/249

2. heroism of police officers -- courage, bravery, stamina -- they endured hrs and hrs of assaultive conduct. fact standing at end of day nothing short of miracle. ofc salke and carrion only officers standing between mob and members of congress. 2 men & a flagpole

/250

Ofc Dunn, who's here. has discussed the pain he's endured. i appreciate your acknowledgment of what he did that day. i'm sure he. does.
but mr meggs i daresay that your view of your actions & conduct is at odds with the undisputed evidence really was. ...

/260

most evidence was not indispute. video. messages. only question was why you did what you did. there was testimony you were looking for Rhodes and contemplating going into capitol.
GoToMeeting was for organizing for next op. having armed QRF outside city ...

/261

"gives us legal cover" ... "nothing left to do but fight" "just like in serbia" ... those aren't your words, those are Rhodes's words. You were on that call. you heard them. you walked away thinking this was all about being on a security detail? Mr. Rashid--
/262

a very [imperfect] individual--he had foresight to walk away.
you were leader of group of FL OKs who came to DC with cache of weapons, many in your truck, stashed across river at comfort inn. for "emergency purposes." why do you need that for a security detail?

/263

Did you believe Rhodes's words were just bombast? one message--okay. 2 messages. 3. but i don't understand ... "easy to chat here. but the question is who's prepared to die." to die. doesn't soun d like planning for a security detail. you texted mr. liggett from another

/264

militia group, talking about how many Proud Boys you'd have as force multipllier. doesn't sound like a security detail.
12/25: "get up close to capitol then at night whatever happens happens." doesn't sound like security detail.
"our peaceful protests need to have more teeth"/265

"there will be blood in the streets no matter what." "tree of liberty needs to be refreshed with the blood of patriots from time to time"
i understand mr. meggs that when you look at evidence and look into your heart you see different conduct than jury saw. that's okay.

/266

that's fair. but we have a process like this for a reason. in minds of 12 people beyond reasonable doubt you committed conspiracy offenses in multiple ways that day. rejected idea you were just going to help police officers. rejected idea you were just doing security details
/267

did not think you were just hanging out idly in front of speaker's office suite.
i trust the thoughtfulness, diligence & ultimate conclusions of those 12 people.
Mr. meggs i don't for moment for you to think that what occurred in those weeks & months defines who you are

/268

i've read your background. your family is here. you seem to have led life up to J6 anyone of us would say was life well led and worth living. i've very impressed with how you've taken yourself from modest beginnings to where you have become professionally

/269

it's a testament to who you are. your family, son, wife, grandchildren obviously care great deal about you. people in your community. i dont discount any of that. i feel your pain.
it's astonishing to me how avg americans somehow transformed into criminals in weeks

/270

leading up to and on J6.
regrettably everytthing you did vanished in matter of couple months.
planning scheming with others to bring rifles to DC became more important than family. contemplating violence on streets ... maybe you were just under spell of Mr. Rhodes.

/271

unlike Rhodes who i think continues to pose real threat to republic, but you do continue to say things not consistent with reality. you told Fox police thought it was okay for you to walk thru that door. that somehow if there were more CCTV footage available you'd be

/272

exonerated. your lawyers had access to everything. ... you recently called everything that happened here a BS trial.
but in the end mr meggs there are factors that are weighty beyond the remorse you know have. factors to make sure people in this country understand

/273

that violence cannot be resorted to simply because you don't like the guy that got elected. don't take to streets with rifles. don't hope president invokes insurrection act ... dont rush into US capitol to stop electoral count. if we don't make sure that kind of conduct
/274

[is not acceptable].
Judge then sentences Meggs to 144 MONTHS. [I heard wrong the first time and have deleted my original tweet. Strongly regret my error.]
/275

Mehta then clarifies that the reason for his sentence is that he understands that Meggs is not Rhodes.
So he gets 12 YEARS. 3d longest after Rhodes and Peter Schwartz.

/276

Now Mehta wishes Meggs "best of luck" and adjourns.

/277-end