Thread by @tribunaltweets

We will be reporting from day 4 of the employment tribunal Prof Jo Phoenix v The Open University from 10am.
Abbreviations are in: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo…

We begin. J discussing ppl using their mobile devices on in court and reminded they're not allowed to do this - they should leave the room. Unless they have sought permission to live tweet. Security will be in the room. Restrictions described.

J: I understand the press are present today
BC When we have the short break it would be helpful for JP to leave
J Yes, if she watches the clock
JP Miss JM?

JM: Your para says arounf the cancellation time things became v difficult, we discussed event and I suggest thus isnt

what happened?
JP: This was at dept level and not OU level

Judge having issues with her laptop and calling for IT support [so a delay in proceedings]

J requests a break and to return at 10.30am

We return at 10.33
missed the beginning
JP I don't remember. I took part in recruitment w M Zoolaf for Assoc Lecturers and I'm fairly sure it was pre 27th Aug...yes in my sick leave
JP Has a funny system and as a FT staff member you dont deliver the teaching

JM Refresh us on where we were yday, re you to DD asking about their research.."would this summarise things?"
JM Discussion re being upset re contents of the email
JP Yes I recall re the book being in pigeon hole
I accept that
JM I've taken Abby out of this email

JM I hope study leave was productive and discussing writers retreat
JP Yes my email is cordial to her
JM Cordial response in Sept declining attendance and happy to meet up. Do u agree is cordial?
JP Yes, I wanted an academic r'ship
JM And Dr Downes too?
JP Yes

JM Ppl see DD needing protection - there's no evidence of this. Is it yr assumption?
JP No Dr Drake said this - there had been a problem betwn us but I'd never seen it that way
JM Yr the more senior person?
JM Professorships are a mark of distinction in research and not seniority

JP Part of being a prof is bringing ppl on and that's how I operated for the past 27 yrs. If seniority is about instit power then management have this
Yes,I agree they're the next generation.

JM Re ?? [missed name] walked the line for everyone who had a view on the gender debate

JP I agree partly w this. I attempted to talk to DD to help w research and help to define thinking - eg discussion of concept of transphobia and how u form concepts. So not necessarily parity of treatment as I was faced w an environment where became impossible to discuss GC

beliefs and academic freedom shld be foreclosed eg Holocaust denial.
JM We disagree with you here
JP I launched the network telling almost anyone for v good reasons but some did know. I depends on no effort to close something down - actively or in effect you can damage it by

doing nothing
JM You've described the background context. You say 5 things are relevant. The first is LW conversation where she likened you to a racist
JP Yes
JM Looking at your grievance document first which is a very long document

JM There's a duplication of bullet points - is this accidental?
JP Yes, I think so
JM You say, on 24th June, [reads out re not remembering exactly when conversation took place]
JP Yes, I couldn't remeber exactly
JM Discussing the S Times article, being called a transphobe

JM "Having a racist uncle at the dinner table"
JP Yes
JM But in yr witness statement you have located a date when you cldn't prev remember. How?
JP Via the SAR
JM There are parts of the conversation I dont remember, but now I see the WhatsApp msgs I cant remeber the order

JM "..Or the whole conversation"
JP Yes, correct
JM You also say you're very upset. Looking at the docs you say you're jet lagged & quotes "Self ID is the only way". Also "I've had a belly full and I need to explain myself". Discussing confusion between article and WPUK

JM So this is WPUK? You say yr going to name names [not mentioning Louise]. I think you're referencing Sept and not October
JP I was aked by Dr Drake to put out an olive branch
JM It sounds that way?
JP But it wasnt - that was disjointed
JM She suggested I get counselling

JP The first is about L Westmoreland, the 2nd about DD and the 3rd about LW
JM Yr evidence is so variable that it can't be relied upon. She denies she said racist uncle and denies she suggested you get counselling. The biggest objection re tolerating the racist uncle

JM You said "I'm ok. I needed to rant.. I really will be ok"
JP Yes
JM I take that you were ok
JP I presented it that way and u cld read it that way, but Ithe ppl I was chatting with I wanted to feel secure. It was a hostile environment and I had worked at many uni and thought

I understood them. I was trying to say I wasnt falling apart, but then I did.
I always try to put myself in others positions. I've been out as a lesbian since before the EA and had to grow a thick skin. The implicit homophobia and sexism I've lived with..

JP You learn how to present ok even if you're very upset
JM This network on whatsapp you're very honest with?
JP Yes. We're talking about emotional disclosure - which is very fifferent
JM U werent devastated?
JP I disagree completely
JM Do u accept yr unreliable witness
JP No

JM You cant be relied upon about the facts or that u were upset re uncle comment?
JP I disagree
JM Re follow up email to LM, [reads re needing another conversation and possibly slighting the OU and causes of upset: the conference, WPUK, RG. Causes of upset

JM Still reading from email...re differences of positions, possible misunderstanding.
JM There's no reference to the uncle comment?
JP No and there wldn't be. I was trying to salvage professional r'ships as wld have put us at game over if I had

JM Why wld it be game over? Why didnt you raise it?
JP This wasnt to record what happened but to get clarification re the Times and WPUK. It's hard to remember before this but the SAR brought this back - I remeber the fierce slap around the face

JM Do you accept you're doctoring your evidence to make it fit together now?
JP No.

[short break for JP to walk up and down]
JM and J discussing short breaks

[Note: JM speaks extremely quickly so I'm needing to paraphrase a lot]

JM Discussing WhatsApp messages - will return to this. The uncle comment was 2 weeks earlier?
JP I'll concede I'm not v good on dates, happily
JM 5th Dec,
JP The date is wrong
JM It's v odd you have dates

JM wrong?
JP I wont forget the date as I was being [destroyed?]
JM [hard to hear]
JP Agreeing noises. I disagree with many of her facts though
JM On 24 Oct LM wrote ... There's nothing ref the uncle comment
JP Yes
JM You've known LM for a long time?
JP Yes, but it's impossible

JP to have a peer 2 peer discussion with a line manager

JP HRec is the research org of the OU, and with memory she was saying I was calling into Q whether the OU was sticking with academic freedom
JM What's the relevance?
JP In a convo about me and at the WPUK, I was being told

JP not to say anything. That is ...I've lost my train of thought..
JM ??[cannot hear]
JP That's what she claims. I dispute later statement
JM Discussing colleagues with diametrically opposing opinions but we contained these. Do u accept this?
JP Yes

JM Still reading out
JP [Tearful and requests a few moments] then says I', ok

JM We stopped talking about the issues for a while, counselling..
JP No she did not. I did provide context and I was crying and not a little upset. She got up and went to her computer and tried to shut

JP down. Yes, my memory is jumbled but I wldnt have put it into an email the next day.

[hearing sniffles from JP]
[Many people on chat saying they cannot hear JM]

JP Is it ok if my partner comes up for a second?

Appears to be a break until 10.45

@threadreaderapp unroll