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We will be joining the afternoon session of Jo Phoenix v Open University at 2pm.
Previous sessions and full abbreviations are here:
Due to begin with continuing cross examination of DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo…
Previous sessions and full abbreviations are here:
Due to begin with continuing cross examination of DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo…
Abbreviations:
JP - Professor Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R
JP - Professor Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R
We are still waiting for the conference host to join
Now in 2.01 pm
J: Sorry about that
BC: Just reporting to my client ?? [cannot hear]
Now in 2.01 pm
J: Sorry about that
BC: Just reporting to my client ?? [cannot hear]
JM: At lunchtime, DD looked at her emails and found an email re views asking how much she might know about GA views. It was inappropriate and disconcerting and if this person is on the feed they should leave the feed. I will show you their name
[checking name of emailer against those with remote access to the courtroom]
[rustling noises]...[doors creaking]
J: Justin can you hear me? I have sent you an email with an instruction - please can you action this?
Justin: I'll action that now, sure
J: Justin can you hear me? I have sent you an email with an instruction - please can you action this?
Justin: I'll action that now, sure
[delay with slight background noise]
J: Um, okay?
BC: Good afternoon DD [bundle page] There was a dept mtg on Dec 12th & u had a conversation w LD the foolowing day " Thanks for yr support and sorry for offloading etc, esp as talked about this before"
J: Um, okay?
BC: Good afternoon DD [bundle page] There was a dept mtg on Dec 12th & u had a conversation w LD the foolowing day " Thanks for yr support and sorry for offloading etc, esp as talked about this before"
BC: LD replied "N I can see the load u carry w JPs actions"
DD It was to do with understanding Essex cancellation & with the contentiousness
BC Am I right that the load was to do w her actions and decisions?
DD I'm not sure
BC It echoes prev comments. The impact of JP
DD It was to do with understanding Essex cancellation & with the contentiousness
BC Am I right that the load was to do w her actions and decisions?
DD I'm not sure
BC It echoes prev comments. The impact of JP
DD I cant remember the specifics of the interaction
J Asks for clarification - u cant remember?
DD I was trying to understand more of the specifics of the debate/ why ppl might protest the debate
BC Thats another rewriting of history?
DD that's tthe best I can do. If that's what
J Asks for clarification - u cant remember?
DD I was trying to understand more of the specifics of the debate/ why ppl might protest the debate
BC Thats another rewriting of history?
DD that's tthe best I can do. If that's what
DD I said it's what I said
BC Asking re carrying of load..? You are being less than candid about this. U wanted to unburden yr anger
DD No I wasnt angry about that
BC Something had happened the prev day/
DD I dont remember anything apart from the mtg
BC Asking re carrying of load..? You are being less than candid about this. U wanted to unburden yr anger
DD No I wasnt angry about that
BC Something had happened the prev day/
DD I dont remember anything apart from the mtg
BC This exchange is that there was a signif reaction to JP talking at the mtg?
DD No.
BC U agreed yr convo was on the 13th
DD I dont remeber what the convo was about and i dont remember feeling burdened
BC Ppl talk in the mtgs about research etc? She talked about cancellation?
DD No.
BC U agreed yr convo was on the 13th
DD I dont remeber what the convo was about and i dont remember feeling burdened
BC Ppl talk in the mtgs about research etc? She talked about cancellation?
DD Yes
BC The whole dept knew?
DD I dont know if they were all talking about it. I dont know if they all knew about it
BC She mentioned her trans prisoners research?
DD Yes
BC Her cancellation was a big deal?
DD it's a big deal
BC Y'd be expected naturally to express concern?
BC The whole dept knew?
DD I dont know if they were all talking about it. I dont know if they all knew about it
BC She mentioned her trans prisoners research?
DD Yes
BC Her cancellation was a big deal?
DD it's a big deal
BC Y'd be expected naturally to express concern?
BC If LD had been stopped in her research u wld have expressed sympathy?
DD Not necesarily I was walking a fine line. It depends how a person was presenting - it's hard to read ppl in the moment
BC JP was met by pointed silence?
DD Thats not my recollection. when JP said this she
DD Not necesarily I was walking a fine line. It depends how a person was presenting - it's hard to read ppl in the moment
BC JP was met by pointed silence?
DD Thats not my recollection. when JP said this she
DD mentioned it between different subjects. Someone made a joke - JP her self laughed. That's my recollection and it's not in the minutes
BC That didnt happen
DD That's my recollection
BC U asked about LDs research on prisoners?
DD No thats not how these mtgs happen
BC That didnt happen
DD That's my recollection
BC U asked about LDs research on prisoners?
DD No thats not how these mtgs happen
DD I believe the minutes reflect X talking after Jo.
I dont recall [an effusive response to LDs announcement]
BC This was an expression of disapproval and u went to LD after the mtg cos of this?
DD No
BC I've asked u for a convincing explan of why u unburdened yrself yo LD and
I dont recall [an effusive response to LDs announcement]
BC This was an expression of disapproval and u went to LD after the mtg cos of this?
DD No
BC I've asked u for a convincing explan of why u unburdened yrself yo LD and
BC what about. Can you try again? I dont want u to argue on LDs account here..
DD: There wldnt be anything from that mtg that felt like a load, so I dont feel Id be burdened by these issues
BC wasnt a welfare call in Dec was it?
DD I dont recall. We had to have catch ups as she
DD: There wldnt be anything from that mtg that felt like a load, so I dont feel Id be burdened by these issues
BC wasnt a welfare call in Dec was it?
DD I dont recall. We had to have catch ups as she
DD was on a sick call rota?
BC It was instigated by you?
DD I dont recall. It says it was a sickness call
BC But she wasnt off sick
DD This was as she's had alot of sickness absence and needed 6 wkly checks. But we didnt always record the type of call except official ones
BC It was instigated by you?
DD I dont recall. It says it was a sickness call
BC But she wasnt off sick
DD This was as she's had alot of sickness absence and needed 6 wkly checks. But we didnt always record the type of call except official ones
DD: I can guess it wasn't a formal sickness call in this instance
BC: Looking at [bundle] C had had absence until end Aug, then Feb 20 as she became ill. So Dec 19 u dont think this was part of a formal absence mgmt plan (I might be wrong)
DD We have a sickness support plan
BC: Looking at [bundle] C had had absence until end Aug, then Feb 20 as she became ill. So Dec 19 u dont think this was part of a formal absence mgmt plan (I might be wrong)
DD We have a sickness support plan
DD I can imaginr I'd want to check in on her
BC But these werent related to stress?
DD But stress can impact ones ability to work
BC But these werent related to stress?
DD But stress can impact ones ability to work
BC U initiated this mtg as angry?
No
BC It was to chastise her?
No
BC You were attempting to explain to her that dept mtgs werent the right place for debate?
DD Agreed. Jo was expressing her disappointment to me about hte reaction she received
BC U told her not to talk about her
No
BC It was to chastise her?
No
BC You were attempting to explain to her that dept mtgs werent the right place for debate?
DD Agreed. Jo was expressing her disappointment to me about hte reaction she received
BC U told her not to talk about her
BC About her research?
DD Not true. That's not what the space is for. But she could update ppl
BC She'd not sought to suggest that debates shld happen?
DD I said it wasnt approp place for debate
BC Jo was regarded w hostility by a lot of the dept cos of her views
DD There was
DD Not true. That's not what the space is for. But she could update ppl
BC She'd not sought to suggest that debates shld happen?
DD I said it wasnt approp place for debate
BC Jo was regarded w hostility by a lot of the dept cos of her views
DD There was
DD tension and flare ups only
BC We wont go back, but u describe a minefield yet now saying was only brief
DD Was brief, the 3 ppl but was a ripple effect thru some of the dept, but not all of it, recognising polarising opinions
BC We wont go back, but u describe a minefield yet now saying was only brief
DD Was brief, the 3 ppl but was a ripple effect thru some of the dept, but not all of it, recognising polarising opinions
[discussion teaching, study, AL days]
BC From 2017-8, JP had 2 main research roles? DD212 and lead ?
DD Prob correct
BC Re planning, by start of 21 calendar the ref work was greatly reducing?
DD Yes
BC
BC From 2017-8, JP had 2 main research roles? DD212 and lead ?
DD Prob correct
BC Re planning, by start of 21 calendar the ref work was greatly reducing?
DD Yes
BC
BC: We can see your email to C re proposed working days
DD Yes
BC There's too many ref days here?
DD 59 days of her own research and actual ref down to 10 days
BC U boost up her DD212 job. Look at [bundle]
DD Yes
BC There's too many ref days here?
DD 59 days of her own research and actual ref down to 10 days
BC U boost up her DD212 job. Look at [bundle]
BC: In 2018-9 she had 65 days on that module
DD: Yes
BC: Now 50 days DD? then [missed] You were proposing a 30% increase on this work? But then she went off sick
DD: We see Abby Rowe took over chairship
DD Yes
BC AR did 54 days on this. You artif boosted the days on that module
DD: Yes
BC: Now 50 days DD? then [missed] You were proposing a 30% increase on this work? But then she went off sick
DD: We see Abby Rowe took over chairship
DD Yes
BC AR did 54 days on this. You artif boosted the days on that module
BC As u cldnt find anyone else to work w her?
DD That's not true
BC [new page]
BC Email Prof Scott re convo re his team for a module. He says he'd prefer not to work with C and LD for obvious reasons
DD idint know what he meant
BC U didnt ask?
DD It wasnt an issue as other ppl
DD That's not true
BC [new page]
BC Email Prof Scott re convo re his team for a module. He says he'd prefer not to work with C and LD for obvious reasons
DD idint know what he meant
BC U didnt ask?
DD It wasnt an issue as other ppl
BC It wasnt an issue?? One of whom is the C. U didnt think it important to understand?
BC U say u wanted to keep the team happy?
DD Ppl move in and out of feeling comfy w working w each other and I dont need to probe
BC It was obvious why they didnt want to work w C
BC U say u wanted to keep the team happy?
DD Ppl move in and out of feeling comfy w working w each other and I dont need to probe
BC It was obvious why they didnt want to work w C
DD That wasnt the reason
BC U cldnt find ppl to work w her so boosted her days
DD Module was being assessed mid life so we didnt need the workload days. And I wasnt the decider on this, as others change the days given to staff, esp for teaching
BC Mid term reviews dont take
BC U cldnt find ppl to work w her so boosted her days
DD Module was being assessed mid life so we didnt need the workload days. And I wasnt the decider on this, as others change the days given to staff, esp for teaching
BC Mid term reviews dont take
BC this long?
DD They can actually take longer
BC Comparing like with like, I delib looked at planned v actual.
DD Only confirmed as actual until the end of the year and hrs submitted
BC Normally a coleague with C's experience wld recruit?
DD Sometimes
DD They can actually take longer
BC Comparing like with like, I delib looked at planned v actual.
DD Only confirmed as actual until the end of the year and hrs submitted
BC Normally a coleague with C's experience wld recruit?
DD Sometimes
BC: Carly Speed was recruited?
DD I believe she was sick
BC But she wasnt involved in shortlisting etc?
DD If not interviewing she wldnt have been and [long comments re Qs for job adverts]
DD I believe she was sick
BC But she wasnt involved in shortlisting etc?
DD If not interviewing she wldnt have been and [long comments re Qs for job adverts]
DD [discussing recruitment
BC Listra Hagley-Dickson, Matthew Cole, Tony Murphy, Steve Conway...
DD By the same process and another Dean involved for one...discussion on Fixed term interviews etc [v fast]
BC Listra Hagley-Dickson, Matthew Cole, Tony Murphy, Steve Conway...
DD By the same process and another Dean involved for one...discussion on Fixed term interviews etc [v fast]
BC David Turner?
DD Again a staff tutor so recruited by a diff line manager
BC Did u read the RR?
DD Yes, when it came out but not in prepn for this
BC Were u aware she was upset about not receiving support from the OU?
DD Yes, I think I was
DD Again a staff tutor so recruited by a diff line manager
BC Did u read the RR?
DD Yes, when it came out but not in prepn for this
BC Were u aware she was upset about not receiving support from the OU?
DD Yes, I think I was
BC: C wrote to colleagyes herself to outline what happened & her thoughts?
Yes
BC She was approp in what she said, expressed that all should support AF even if they disagreed w her?
DD Yes this was reasonable
BC U had exchange w IF re the response to this?
DD Yes
BC reads [walkin
Yes
BC She was approp in what she said, expressed that all should support AF even if they disagreed w her?
DD Yes this was reasonable
BC U had exchange w IF re the response to this?
DD Yes
BC reads [walkin
..a fine line between beliefs] But this was about AF and wasnt a fine line, which is clear?
DD This was still intertwined w the GC beleifs
BC U didnt regard AF applied to GC?
DD No
BC Yr response was one that place C's beliefs within a narrative of harm?
DD This was still intertwined w the GC beleifs
BC U didnt regard AF applied to GC?
DD No
BC Yr response was one that place C's beliefs within a narrative of harm?
BC [discussion re the law and AF] U havent said this was right but coach it in the info from Jo re Essex. Where have u recognised the importance of AF?
DD Here
BC But that's only in a para re harms on TG ppl. Suggesting linked to hurt in the dept?
DD No
BC This reflects yr
DD Here
BC But that's only in a para re harms on TG ppl. Suggesting linked to hurt in the dept?
DD No
BC This reflects yr
BC your constant framing and attitude about her beliefs?
DD No
BC [new bundle]
J: mentions time and plans for break at 2pm
BC: As I'll be moving to a new topic shall we break now?
J: Let's break until 3.15pm
Court adjourned
DD No
BC [new bundle]
J: mentions time and plans for break at 2pm
BC: As I'll be moving to a new topic shall we break now?
J: Let's break until 3.15pm
Court adjourned
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