Thread by @tribunaltweets

We are due to return for the second afternoon session at 3.15pm, continuing the cross examination of Dr Deborah Drake (DD), Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21

WFTCHTJ..."waiting for the conference host to join" from waiting room

BC: Suggesting vindication of her AF in RR, and u respond [reads re reacting to the news] On any other topic this wld unequivocably be good news?
DD It depends on the topic
BC U were appeasing yr colleagues?
DD I forwarded it on
BC This reflects [reads] I told u so means the C

BC proved to be right
DD A few ppl didnt agree #BC Yr appeasing these ppl
DD Am just holding both in mind at once
BC I keep having to plug aaway my point of view
DD Being able to talk about my work as ppl keep complaining applies more widely than just the dept

DD Ppl complaining isnt the same as not being welcome
DD I dont read it as yr not allowed to speak about yr work. Keep plugging aaway. I was looking at it as a marathon and not sprint
BC Until we've found that place us hldnt talk about this?
DD No, just be careful about how talk

BC They're the same thing?
DD No
BC [reads re talking openly and r'ship betwn C and DD and emails behind the scenes]
DD C wld not have known about this correspondence
BC Talking re divisions and views C is t'phobic
DD Not many felt this. 2 ppl exercised by GC views

BC [reads re approach taken since signing letters 2 yrs ago]
DD My instruction wasnt not to talk in the dept mtgs, which I didnt think was approp eg use thinking about meets which C never booked. Isnt the same as never talk about full stop
BC U didnt suggest she book one?

DD I beleive I did
BC U thought it wld be toxic or hurtful. Or toxic for her as she didnt feel welcome. U setteld on this 2nd?
DD I felt it cld become toxic but didnt want to correct her email. I didnt see the point of correcting it.
BC Nothing on June 11th?
DD Felt small and not

BC U compared her to Charles Murray?
DD Yes and immed apologised
BC He's racist though?
DD Yes, but he wldnt think he is. I was trying to show how her interests wld be difficult to accept by some colleagues [discussion of his research and how Black ppl wld feel]

BC U viewd her research as inappropriate in the samre way, as y've just shown
DD I didnt feel she'd identify with this or go there. I wldnt have used that example if I thought she'd take it that way
BC Calling someone racist or prejudiced is a modern sin?
DD Ummm...repeat the Q

BC [repeats]
DD It's a way of saying that though...??
BC This is precisely how she's viewed
DD No I was trying to see how she might be viewed
BC Its how u viewed her?
DD No [missed]. I didnt want her to feel alienated

J: 1st Q relates to abolition conference. Want to understand the chronology. Cancelled in march?
DD Yes
J When the speaker cancelled did u look for another soeaker? Actual steps taken?
DD Prob not. Speakers was to be of relevance to the person it was related to. Liverpool uni

J How much was it to be a tribute to Dr Sims? Was it more important that the protestations?
DD One day was 40 yr anniv of his seminal book and he was a key figure that conf was built around. Ppl who had worked w him
J He didnt know he was speaking at the conference?

DD It was a surprise and he didnt know who wld be speaking?
DD we wld have told him closer to the time who was speaking. Was part of the gift I suppose, but hadnt communic it at this point
J He wld have thought it worthwhile?
DD Yes and he knew it was in honour of him

J He felt no conf shld be cancelled?
DD Yes
J Why wasnt his view paid attention to?
DD I dont know. He d/w Davis Scott but I dont know the details
J U were asked about AF in the context of the code of practice for events and specific reasons needed to cancel

J U said there cld have been other silencing of AF?
DD If the conf went ahead without these speakers, we wld put a lot of work into a conf we werent interested in and convos we wanted to have. These wld have been lost. Be left thinking Why am I here? Esp for Steve Timms

J U were asked about opposition and r'ship w CCJS: The Qs were about HERC opposition. Who were the 1-2 ppl?
DD I think, and might be guessing, Chris Williams and LD. That's my recollection
J U said the decision had to be made quickly. wHY?
DD As repurational risk got higher,

DD I think... Creating a different conf that we hadnt intended to organise and this wld use a lot of resources
J What do u mean by reputational damage and advertising it for longer?
DD If u fill in the blanks after advertising it, this was the approp time to cancel before filling

DD ..the blanks as we hadnt fleshed out who wld be there yet for the public
J Re the ST article, with use of exalting pronouns, u said there were 2 ppl offended by that. Were they Dr Boukli and Downes?
DD Yes, I believe so
J When wld u say u 1st knew about Cs GC views?

DD prob after the discussions after the conference. I wldnt understand them as GC at that point as didnt have that language then
J Is more that sex is immutable?
DD Not until late 2021, July, in academic yr. I dont think I understand that dimension fully

J Re views in the dept, when did u find out about others having GC views?
DD It was in the course of various convos and ppl speak to each other "I think Jo has a point there" etc. I dont know if he has GC views or not - he's in our dept. That's Keir Erwin-Rogers

DD There's another member who is on the GCRN but I wont say her name
J Re working together in 2020
DD That was on something else. I didnt know where ppl sat on the spectrum of views at that point. The Senate was to discuss AF and a colleague spoke out re AF and GC issues

J that wld be in 2021?
DD Yes. People were in diff places on the spectrum of views and are ppl close to Jo's place of thinking tho maybe not at the same point
J Dec 12th meeting and silence: I want clear about yr answer.

J the whole county cancelled you..and speaking about views.
DD More ppl spoke after that point and I reeled in the floor to other ppls news?
J Was there silence b4 then?
DD No. There was a quip

J Am trying to understand re handwringing - 2 members didnt but others didnt know what to think. Am not clear about how u knew there was handwringing?
DD Ppl telling me they felt conflicted. Some wanted to show support for Abi and Leigh but also want to show we respect Jo

J Am trying to understand that. It feels that only the C wants support. Why wld they need to publicly support ppl. why was there handwringing?
DD They didnt want this tension in the dept, eg with updates in the dept. Awareness of differences of views

DD How do we talk about this in the future if someone gets research money, as we work in teams? Share info? We want to support each other and wanted to ensure some ppl felt supported without others not feeling supported
BC I have a Q
J What's this to do with?

BC Asking re when had GC Beliefs. It's inconsistant with evid she's given before
BC We agreed betwn ourselves [with JM]
[discussion re evidence given]
BC Describing what C had said about her beliefs..
? Why shld we put it to her again?
BC She was rewriting history about her level

BC of understanding of the Cs beleiefs. She's not telling the truth. I dont mind if she doesnt have to answer but I thought she shld have the opportunity to answer
JM I did say re examining, "when is sex immutable and not seeing TWAW" I'm happy to make submissions here

J That specific point is agreed. We don't have much time. We'll be looking at the Cs beliefs and manifestations of that - am not sure if u should submit that Q against this witness?
J Any re exam JM?
JM [bundle] Support plan guidance that is filled in [bless you Judge who sneezes

DD Phased return and reg FU mtgs in that period of time some of which were recorded
JM Also suggested a doc was sent May 20th, email of JP re RR and you drafted an email. Also personal emails to JP from you, and responses from her. It's been suggested yr v frustrated w JP and had

a -ve perspective of her
DD Our r'ship was warm [sound gone]

[sound seems to have gone for many remote observers]

sound back at 16.14 to general background noice and laughter..discussing dates?

[lots of building noises...
BC discussing "getting it done"]
Back into waiting room for a break

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