Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good morning.

Today we are hoping to live-tweet the case of Adams v Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, which begins at Edinburgh Employment Tribunal today.

The Claimant, was employed by Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre as a counsellor.

She does not subscribe to gender identity theory. She believes that biological sex is real, important, immutable and not to be conflated with gender identity.

The Claimant alleges constructive dismissal because of her gender critical beliefs.

Abbreviations:

J: Employment Judge McFatridge

C or RA - Roz Adams, the Claimant
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for the claimant

R or ERCC - Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, the Respondent
DH - David Hay KC, barrister for the respondent

We expect proceedings to begin at 10:00 a.m.

After any case administrative business and any reading time required by the court, the first witness will be the Claimant.

Meanwhile we have another case today also, which will be tweeted by @TribunalTweets2 - Patrick Lee at disciplinary process by his (former) professional body the Institute and Faculty of Actuaries (IFoA) following tweets/retweets he made criticising the Islamic religion.

@tribunaltweets2 We have been given the court's permission in advance to live-tweet the case.

@tribunaltweets2 It is possible that the Court will start on time but conduct some initial Court business in private session. The public part of the hearing has not yet begun.

@tribunaltweets2 We are still waiting for the hearing to become public.

@tribunaltweets2 Still no public hearing yet.

@tribunaltweets2 We are still waiting for the public part of the hearing to begin.

@tribunaltweets2 The court has now risen for lunch - there was no public hearing this morning - and will reconvene at 3pm.

@tribunaltweets2 The court is now in public session.

@tribunaltweets2 [I have sound but no video at present]

@tribunaltweets2 J: Welcomes all to the court.
J: Regarding live tweeting: there is an existing restricted reporting order in place. And witnesses in Scotland do not see the court proceedings before evidence; have told witnesses they must not read tweeting of the case.

@tribunaltweets2 J: This morning - application from Respondent to amend made, we have decided to accept in full. We deprecate the very late submission of the request - not till this morning - but decided that application of justice requires us to accept it.

@tribunaltweets2 J: We have not quite completed our reading (collating with the documents submitted) - all three of panel are up to about para 38. Even so we would like to proceed to evidence now; but we ask Counsel to give detailed doc references beyond para 38.

@tribunaltweets2 J: We note also a ref in para 31 to document page 531 but we could not locate that. We also could not find the invitation referred to.
NC: Should be p522 re 31
J Thank you

@tribunaltweets2 J: Are we ready?
DH: Nothing from R to say at present
J: [administers affirmation to the claimant]

@tribunaltweets2 NC: Please confirm you name and address - but that should not be reported please.
RA [gives name and address]

@tribunaltweets2 NC: Please tell tribunal re your professional background before ERCC

RA: Ran a respite centre offering holidays to Glasgow families suffering poverty. Then moved into community education and development work. Worked at "Bridging the Gap" from 2003.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: Building bridges via activities between migrants and refugees and local people. All about bringing people together.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: Came across the concept of non-violent communication - about how to talk across differences. Practice / principles used around the world in conflict situations. Because a certified trainer, qualified 2017.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: So was also training people - all kinds of roles and areas - in non-violent communication. So was very interested in bringing those skills to new role, working with victims of sexual violence specifically though of course had met individuals suffered it before.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: At Bridging the Gap I worked with and came across people from all kinds of backgrounds and with all kinds of beliefs - including with trans identities - and it was all about working together.

@tribunaltweets2 NC: How did the NVC come into your work at ERCC?
RA: Plays intohow people can stop hating themselves, blaming themselves, how we as a society can navigate protecting them - preventing violence - and how we address it as a society

@tribunaltweets2 RA: Helping people understand that there are core motivations to how people behave, even if we don't agree with them. For example we could see graffiti done by a gang setting - we can say we don't agree with what they are doing, but, recognise they are looking for belonging.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: The ERCC sphere of work really tests those principles - which interested me - sexual violence is only rarely a stranger on a dark night, so must be navigated in context of relationships

@tribunaltweets2 NC: Did the NVC affect your interactions with colleagues
RA: Absolutely, a valuable set of tools for workplace setting with colleagues too - I would apply to any difficulties, stepping back and reflecting, to think through and understand all sides.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: So working out what matters to them as well as what matters to me. Colleagues sharing workplace, all of us sharing the planet - works for both.

@tribunaltweets2 NC: Can you describe any trans identified people you have worked with
RA: Yes we had a drop-in at one point, two transmen, we were trained not to treat differently, it worked very well.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: And a member of my community choir - sometimes came dressed as a man, but was also experimenting with expression and sometimes came dressed as a woman - not a problem, we were all there to sing and we did.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: And had supported two trans people who had suffered violence, and was able to help and support them.

@tribunaltweets2 NC: Can you tell tribunal how your views on sex and gender have developed over the last few years.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: So as I say had come across people with trans identities in work context and outside. Was very much on board with people identifying as they wished - I ran a workshop at a Catholic church, an LGBT workshop the first they'd ever run.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: The law had recently changed re LGB asylum seekers so it was very pertinent.

RA: But when I came to ERCC I started realising that there was something wrong about how this was people imposed - about not being able to talk about it.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: So I went for a walk with [a manager] and asked how it was going, the trans inclusion in what had been a women-only service, and I just got blanked - told "transwomen are women, there's nothing to discuss".

@tribunaltweets2 RA: And not even that - kept seeing things being called "hate". And I kept thinking but surely we can talk about this - it's a complex thing, surely we can discuss and move things forward?

@tribunaltweets2 RA: Saw things eg from MW about "white saviour feminism", and people saying sex does not matter, which just did not fit with what I was hearing from the people using the service.

@tribunaltweets2 NC: Can you tell us about the "genderbread man"?
RA: Yes it's a diagram with things like sex and gender identity and presentation, and saying all of them are on a spectrum. And obviously some things are - masculinity/feminity - but sex is not.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: I naively thought it was about including everybody.

@tribunaltweets2 NC: What is your view on trans inclusion in rape support services?
RA: Of course I recognised that trans people can suffer sexual violence - and I would like to see everyone that is a victim supported.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: Young gay men for example are perhaps particularly at risk. But, I think there should be honesty about it - and that we make sure that everyone who has suffered violence has a choice about who works with them.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: We have to recognise that nearly all sexual violence is committed by men. When I have worked with trans people they have very often wanted to see a female support worker - so have some men.

@tribunaltweets2 NC: And how do your views on inclusion compare with ERCC's?

@tribunaltweets2 RA: ERCC think sex does not matter, gender identity is the only thing that does - and that self-id of gender identity is all that matters. Not just people that have say lived a long time in role, or have had surgeries or whatever

@tribunaltweets2 RA: But to me, sex does matter - particularly in a service about male sexual violence. I think we have to be absolutely clear with people, with people who ask us questions, so they can give informed consent to working with us.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: ERCC say there is not difference between TW and women or TM and men, and that nonbinary people are neither male nor female, and I don't think that's possible.

@tribunaltweets2 NC: What harms do you fear might flow from the conflation of sex and gender the respondent holds?
RA: First one is that people will self-exclude from the service.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: If they can't be certain they will see a woman, some people will exclude - and I know this has happened bcs I now work at a single sex service and I hear women who did not feel able to got to ERCC

@tribunaltweets2 RA: Also we had someone in their 60s - she wanted a women-only group therapy context, and ERCC said they were "trans inclusive" and she said "is that women only?" - and a few days later got an email from ERCC saying she was not suitable for their service.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: She was not even told about existence of Beira's Place - the single sex service I now work for - they've said they refuse to refer to us, and it was only by chance and a different referral she found her way to BP.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: So those are the initial risks. And then - ERCC recruitment policies are such that male people can be employed in a nominally women-only service; so that means someone might come and only then discover that there is a male person there -

@tribunaltweets2 RA: and then it's on that woman, at such a vulnerable time, to complain / object if she does mind, and I don't think the onus should be on them at that point.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: I just want people to have the information and the choice, that's what I wanted to argue for.

@tribunaltweets2 NC: What do you understand "non binary" to mean to ERCC?
RA: Most recent trans-inclusion policy says, neither male nor female. I think that's not that consistent, bcs they say would be a separate group but that doesn't happen - included in women groups

@tribunaltweets2 NC: Only female non binary people, or male too?
RA: AFAIK only female, but it's not clear that it wouldn't happen. And for staff - recruitment says women only, but self it, but not clear how you can say someone neither male nor female would fit that.

@tribunaltweets2 NC: What do you understand by "non binary"?
RA: To me, s/o who wants to be read by others as neither male nor female - not treated acc to stereotypes - not wanting to be associated with stereotypes - at least, that's the aspiration.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: But in practice - well - people like me have been wanting that for a long time - you can see I'm not trying to look feminine. So it is if you like a performative identity - it only exists if you tell people, because otherwise people just see male or female.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: I so share the idea that the world should not treat male and female differently but in the context of the world we live in, and particularly male sexual violence, it just isn't true.

@tribunaltweets2 NC: Is it possible to be neither male nor female?
RA: No; we are mammals, sexually reproducing, two sexes, male and female. Sex is binary and even people with disorders of sexual development are male or female.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: So it's not possible to be neither. But trying to live as if you were? That's of course possible.

@tribunaltweets2 NC [page reference]: [some discussion of bundle structure and pagination]

@tribunaltweets2 NC: Can you tell us what this is?
RA: Rape Crisis national standards.
NC: Relevance?
RA: Developed in I think 2014 - operating principles for Rape Crisis nationally, across england&Wales and Scotland, written jointly.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: E&W RC developed an adherence framework tool, and centres have to go through process of marking adherence to standards, but there's no mechanism in Scotland for evaluating meeting the standards.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: So ERCC have it on their website and say they adhere to them, but, there has been no process of benchmarking etc - it's just said.

@tribunaltweets2 NC: [new ref]
RA: this is the relevant page of ERCC website claiming adherence to national standards. But as I say, there has been no process.

@tribunaltweets2 NC: Are there any bits of the standards you want to draw our attention to?
RA: Yes - 5.5 here, says staff and volunteers are aware of their own beliefs and prejudices and will put them aside to deal with victims properly.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: So the woman I mentioned - told not welcome - the gender identity ideology has been put ahead of her needs. Belief not set aside.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: 7.6 says women should have the oppurtunity to work with a woman. The word "woman" has become contested but when these were written, I think it's clear they're saying women should be able to access women-only services.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: And perhaps 7.1 - about legislation, but that's often changing. And here - it says anyone turned away or decides not to come should be helped to find a service that can help them instead.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: So the refusal to refer to BP - or even mention it, even when their own waiting list full - that is IMO not complhying with the standards.

@tribunaltweets2 NC: Why did you apply to work at ERCC?
RA: I had got to a point of understanding feminism better, and I really wanted to work in a place that grappled with structural feminist issues, and I thought ERCC was really engaged in that sphere.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: And my interest in non-violence - so, working at the really hard edge *of* violence. And, about helping people come through and survive violence and engage back into community.

@tribunaltweets2 RA: And I was excitied it was trans-inclusive - all in favour of diverse services.

@tribunaltweets2 NC: Can you explain ERCC management structure?
RA: [too many names and too fast - sorry]

@tribunaltweets2 RA: And then there are about 35 staff members, organised into teams each with a line manager and a specific focus - some geographic, some functional.

@tribunaltweets2 J: Is this a natural break?

NC: As natural as any

J: We will restart 10.00 tomorrow. RA you must not discuss case with anyone overnight.

[ENDS]

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