Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good afternoon on 23/01/24 & welcome to PM/Part 1 of Adams v Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre.

The Claimant was employed by Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre & alleges constructive dismissal because of her GC beliefs.
2pm start

For more info visit our substack:
tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/adams-vs-edi…

This afternoon, we expect the claimant's barrister, Naomi Cunningham, to continue cross examining the evidence of ERCC senior management member,
Katy McTernan.

Abbreviations:
J: Employment Judge McFatridge
C or RA - Roz Adams, the Claimant
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for the claimant
R or ERCC - Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, the Respondent
DH - David Hay KC, barrister for the respondent

KM - Katy McTernan (a member of R’s senior management)
MR - Mairi Rosko (Board member of R)
MS - Miren Sagues (Board member of R)
KH - Katie Horsburgh (Board member of R)
MW - Mridul Wadhwa (chief executive of R)
BP - Beira's Place
E&W RC - Rape Crisis England and Wales

Other abbrevs:
NCi - Nico Ciubotario (formerly chief operating officer of R)
SU - Service user
SW - Support worker
I/x - Investigation
Disc - Disciplinary
Griev - Grievance

We begin [1411]

J Good afternoon. Proceed
NC Before we resume I've had a quick convo with DH. I don't think I'm going to finish and we that we finish KM
DH My solicitors are trying to obtain hard copies of KH statements. I'm expecting those this afternoon.

[Sound is bad)
NC I have a couple of matters KM I want to pick up before going back to chronological story. A couple of matters to pick up on. First is question of referral to BP. Ur aware that BP is run by Isabelle Kerr and other [missed]. They are well known?
KM Yes

NC Board is distinguished too?
KM I don't know
NC Rhona Hotchkiss on board
KM I don't know who's on the board
NC If that's right it's absurd even on matters ur not aware of that u can't be confident of their services
KM I don't agree
NC Do u have doubt about their services?

KM They're not looked at it same way [my paraphrase]
NC This is a slack message and something that could be seen by anyone at ERCC
KM Yes
NC and can be looked at at any time
KM not part of instructions ppl had to use

NC This is AB on a piece in Guardian. Ab says something made her feel hopeful last week [reads 'most ppl aren't up in arms about trans ppl my takeaway the transphobes with die out quickly'] did u see this at time?
KM No

NC Any moderation of slack channel and not being used to bulky ppl?
KM not that would be raised with senior team
NC Can u agree this is for RA attention?
KM No
NC AB is saying transphobes are going to die out quickly. AB is more than a decade younger than RA?
KM Probably

NC We see a response [I am hopeful for next generation] She is agreeing with AB and older ppl don't count?
KM Not specifically, different opinions
NC Then AB next response
KM AB is pronounced 'they're'
NC We see 'transphobic poison'
KM yes

NC Are u able to agree that AB is describing what RA has done is poison, isn't it obvious that AB is saying whole cast is going to die out?
KM No
NC not a passive aggressive response?
KM No
NC not a bulling response but this is?
KM Don't agree

NC Turn to [page ref]. That's the Cs consolidated particulars of claimant md para 37 itsets out acts relied on for harassment on basis of belief or lack of. Then there are sub paras relied on as harassment. MW email to AB the decision of disciplinary hearing, failure to apologise

[Sound bad J asks for mics off. He asks again]
J Proceed
NC the disc appeal outcome and failure to measure C MW had been told no evidence of being transphobic. That's what AB is complaining about. I don't need to ask one by one. All of those things

were things that happened to RA bc she was seen as holding transphobic views?
KM Not bc transphobic but came out bc a number of people investigated
NC Those things all happened bc any descent from claim TWAW and TMAW is regarded as transphobic?
KM Don't agree

NC Cause of any of them?
KM Not specific cause
NC GI and sex realism are mutually exclusive and what I'm saying is all those things happened bc of her Protected belief
KM Don't agree
NC any relating to her belief? Events would not have happened if she

hadn't asked a question that arose from she thought bio sex mattered?
KM RA actions caused that and why being investigated
NC do u agree the answer she gave to SU that she understood was about AB sex...do u accept asking Q in that nature was a manifestation that sex matters?

KM (pause) sorry just processing Q
NC Again? Do u agree the Q RA asked how to answer SU enquiry was a manifestation her belief on this service sex matters?
KM (pause)
NC she only asked bc she believes sex is relevant
KM Yes I suppose

NC And related to her Protected beliefs?
KM I don't know about that (pause)
NC Are u aware that, my final section of Qs is about the environment in which this has taken place the atmosphere. Are u aware Prof Jo Phoenix won her case against Open Uni yesterday?
KM No

NC: Rachel Meade case?
KM Yes
NC Denise Fahmy case?
KM No
NC I'll not go on with list...actually one more.. are u aware of events that led to Kathleen Stock resignation from sussex?
KM Not specifically

NC You don't know she qas hounded outout bc of GC beliefs?
KM No
NC This is all from women and girls sector isn't it?
KM I don't know
NC This problem is partic intense in Violence against women sector?
KM What problem?

NC The problem of making it impossible of talking about biological sex matters?
KM I don't know
NC Partic in VAW sector?
KM I don't know
NC and its being driven by commissioning bodies that require funding that orgs must have trans inclusive policy
KM Don't agree

NC I want to suggest MW appoint was part of that. Provocative act. Must have been know enormous opposition. It was done by demonstration?
KM No MW was best candidate for role
NC Getting a trans ID male into women centre was a strategic aim?
KM disagree MW was best candidate

NC Must have been predicted there'd be opposition?
KM not sure it was recognised some ppl would be unhappy. We needed a strong leader for our org and MW was best candidate
NC even if presence of strong leader had predictable effect ur user group would self exclude

KM Wasn't predictable. I don't think that has happened
NC Point of appointing MW was that even rape crisis centres have to capitulate to rape crisis centres?
KM that's not what was happening

NC Reason I say that's a strategic role is that if men can lead rape crisis centres there's nowhere left women can call their own. Once that falls everything else follows
KM was not a strategic decision

NC If its OK for a man to be appointed at CEO of rape crisis centre and the world accepts that's OK bc TWAW then no space left is there for a woman who wants to say I don't want to be measured for a bra by someone who looks like Eddie Izzard

or a intimate exam by someone who looks like Eddie Izard
KM No MW was appointed bc MW is a woman not because transwoman. Doesn't necessarily equate
NC MW has left u to answer thrsr Qs
KM Not giving evidence correct
NC Is that reasonable for u?
KM fair as I'm part of the org

NC I suggest that's by design. Purpose of this sort of treatment is to make example of employee and make impossible for anyone in same way
KM Eas not intention. Process was fair and appropriate intention.
NC suggested the way the centre treated C was for protecting AB

NC Are u aware of that?
KM Yes
NC I'd suggest it hasn't done that at all. It's drawn great deal of attention to SB and ERCC. That's a fact?
KM The tribunal has drawn attention to it
NC the consequence of punishing the C for asking Q has ultimately drawn attention to SB at ERCC

KM Couldn't have predicted that
NC Even inside irg it did nothing to protect AB and it told nothing to colleagues they didn't already know
KM I don't know what colleagues knew

NC The truth is anyone meeting AB would tell at a glance whatever her identity AB is female
KM I don't know
NC Can you tell sex of everyone in this room?
KM I wouldn't presume
NC Can you tell what I am?

(Missed sound is bad)
KM The way we treated client was to follow processes. We tried to do that in fair and respectful way. Fact its ended up at ET is unfortunate.

NC Headline in Scotmas the other day about rape crisis in turmoil and Rape Crisis distancing via statement?
KM Without seeing statement I couldn't actually erm respond
NC Reputationally it hasn't gone well?
KM Not an ideal place to be

NC the truth is the manner in which C was treated wasn't about AB privacy and trust and confidence at all?
KM they were done for disciplinary issue

NC The truth is they were done to enforce believe system that can't be support with argument bc it makes no sense at all?
KM I disagree
NC It can only be enforced by fear and that's why C was treated in that way
KM I disagree

NC No further Qs
DH I have a few. You answered before about scrutiny and wanted u to expand what u mean by that?
KM We receive funding from LA, how were doing it, feedback from SU, level of oversight or org and also registered

as charity there's a legal framework of what u can and can't do.
[Sound is bad with bundle files crashing]
DH You were taken to national service standards and position if Rape Crisis Scotland. Can u explain the ways in which ERCC works with RCS?

KM We are part of wider network and way we work with them is a number of different ways. We're involved in meetings across wider network. We input any work responding to SG info and things like that.

DH U mentioned about conplaying with standards. What is that process?
KM U have to go through process, there's now a point (sound is terrible, apologies) it's a constant improvement process with RCS

DH Lastly, what extent do I bear similarity to AB?
KM You don't.
DH All I have
J Ur evidence is complete
J We'll jump now and reconvene at 10am.
[Discussing EH statements]

[Discussion on typos in EH statements]
J I don't look at any reporting until later today
DH One final matter sorry. Para 4.

@threadreaderapp unroll