Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good afternoon on 24/01/24 & welcome to PM/Part 1 of Adams v Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre.

The Claimant was employed by Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre & alleges constructive dismissal because of her GC beliefs.
2pm start

For more info visit our substack:
tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/adams-vs-edi…

This afternoon, we expect the claimant's barrister, Naomi Cunningham, to continue cross examining the evidence of ERCC board member, Miren Sagues.

Abbreviations:
J: Employment Judge McFatridge
C or RA - Roz Adams, the Claimant
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for the claimant
R or ERCC - Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre, the Respondent
DH - David Hay KC, barrister for the respondent

KM - Katy McTernan (a member of R’s senior management)
MR - Mairi Rosko (Board member of R)
MS - Miren Sagues (Board member of R)
KH - Katie Horsburgh (Board member of R)
MW - Mridul Wadhwa (chief executive of R)
BP - Beira's Place
E&W RC - Rape Crisis England and Wales

Other abbrevs:
RCS - Rape Crisis Scotland
NCi - Nico Ciubotario (formerly chief operating officer of R)
SU - Service user
SW - Support worker
I/x - Investigation
Disc - Disciplinary
Griev - Grievance

MoS - Member of staff
WL - Waiting list
AB - Non-binary member of staff of R
NB - Non-binary
CSW - Counselling support worker
TWAW - Transwomen are women
TMAM - Transmen are men
TM - Transman
TW - Transwoman
WORIADS - Worthy Of Respect In A Democratic Society

Court begins [1406]

J I would remind u affirmation still in force.
NC Afternoon MS
J One person with mic. Check and turn off
NC MS u said before lunch ERCC wasn't hiding anything about trans inclusive policy bc website made it clear. Truth is nothing unambiguous

when u say employs no men it means it employs some TIMs?
MS No
NC repeats Q
MS Trans Identified men but noy males
NC repeats Q: it leaves possibility it employs transwomen
MS TWAW and we made that clear
NC I'm saying nothing in ur policy some women in ur service are male

NC Is there something in policy that makes that clear?
MS [pause]
NC Let's look. Page 172
NC Is ur transinclusion policy on website?
MS statement is
NC what makes it clear that ur may encounter transwoman?
MS We say there's a sentence 'TWAW' therefore implied.

NC You think that's sufficient? It may mean a woman has a male body
MS Not a male body but TW yes
NC SIAT is Still I am Team. What is nature of that team?
MS it support pplwho are not white
NC So BAME?
MS Yes

NC and MW sees a small number if SU? Is that part of SIAT?
MS I don't know
NC SIAT would look after muslin people?
MS Yes
NC and they may not have English as mother tongue?
MS Yes

NC A Muslim woman who doesn't have mother tongue English and assigned to MW and told SW are woman and may find herself alone talking about sexual trauma with MW. Reasonable?
MS Yes
NC And u see nothing wrong?
MS No
NC Noone will have said MW is a transwoman?

MS First thing MW does is explain and if they want to see a woman they can. MW is open about being a TW
NC You have to trust MW to do that as MW passes pretty well as female. Ppl don't often notice MW is male
(Missed)
NC They may think MW is a woman
MS Yes bc MW is

NC It wouldn't be apparant to SU?
MS I don't know
NC Ur are relying on MW to make disclosure?
MS Yes
NC And in any case, imagine what this might be like for Rape survivor who is Muslim and feeling vulnerable and doesn't speak English and traumatised by male violence

And coming for support and healing and sits down alone in a room and first thing she learns is woman she's taken as a woman is a transwoman.
MS uh huh
NC Imagine if that something thinks bio sex us what determines women and now thinks that woman is a man. My Muslim woman is one

Of those women. Can u imagine how SU would feel that she's been violated again?
MS Even if Muslim woman doesn't speak English doesn't mean she doesn't understand and that nnot all Muslim fall into into realism category. I know MW supports couple of ppl

NC Why would SUs know. You've said TWAW and now ur saying SU are told. U say they have no right to know and its private info, which is it?
(Missed)
NC As far as ur concerned MW doesn't need to disclose as MW is simply a woman?
MS Yes

NC So what if MW doesn't need to disclose. Imagine my hypothetical Muslim woman who believes sex is real and had several sessions with MW
(Missed)
MS MW doesn't need to share
NC So perfectly fine Muslim women came in spoke to MW and then learnt MW is a transwoman. Can imagine

That might be traumatic?
MS (pause) I suppose if assumed woman believes in sex realism
NC Dies it matter if woman who believes sex realism is traumatised?
MS of course. But to be clear that wouldn't happen
NS You've said that
MS it would be fine if MW didn't share

NC Point 15 and page 792. It's a long section. Down to 796. I don't think I need yo ask u to read all. Read first para. [Down to 'underlying transphobia']

NC This is section where C says any dissent from GI is transphobic?
MS Um hum
NC You deal with that here [page ref]
MS Yes
NC That's inadequate isn't it? Doesn't deal with what C raises there?
MS (pause)
NC [reads 'MW has labelled her transphobic.'] Your answer to that [reads]

[Reads 'Believes RA transphobic which is MW asked not to be involved in process'] That doesn't come near to answering complaint? That Expressing dissent is transphobic.

MS At disc hearing RA told me it wouldn't take into account allegations of transphobia which why I didn't go into details
NC Point is allegations have been made and u didn't answer
MS No not been encouraged and I responded to best of my ability

NC It's a constant theme of this doc. U write down inadequate summary of RA complaint and then u ask MW and write down what MW says. MW is calling the shots?
MS Not true

NC I want to focus on ur characterisation of the incident. Here [reads 'severe incident indicated by AB'] We've looked but not with u. Let's look at initial enquiry at 514.

NC The email that set thos whole thing off [reads 'can I get some guidance. Many different ways trans ppl expect this Q , gives example'] That's what u have described as severe incident?
MS The whole email chain. We talked about RA continually talking to AB about her beliefs

NC The email chain is apologetic and respectful to AB isn't it? [Showing where in bundle] Then as far as AB is concerned RA fall silent to June. Do u agree that is a warm sincere and humble approach to AB?

MS I think first part of email yes. But asking for convo about it is unnecessary
(Missed)
MS Email from RA from LM and RA acknowledges she knew of that discussion. RA acknowledged the instruction

NC I suggest the reality is this was necessary enquiry as SU had right to know if seeing male or female and put with courtesy?
MS Yes and answer given in line with policy was men aren't working at the centre
NC And not courtesy?
MS I don't think so

NC fair to say AB responded with hysterical rage?
MS No
NC and that response of GI belief system when encounters dissent?
MS No
NC this is a system everyone knows is false, that humans can change sex and some men are really women?
MS no

NC And it protects the lie with rage and bullying?
MS No
NC And that's why is so taboo to say transwomen are men?
MS No
NC it's been made taboo not bc it's not true but bc it's obvs true?
MS No

NS Same reason taboo around pronouns has been constructed?
MS No
NS that's why trans activists have been so keen to make misgendering an unforgivable sin?
MS Don't know about that but it can be seen as an attack?

NC an attack On the belief system?
MS No its about letting ppl be and have choice and and and..sorry can u repeat
NC [repeats]
MS It's whether intentional, if intentional that's why it's unforgivable

NC So ur saying it's unforgivable sin to use pronouns as they use naturally use them to fit the bio sex they're referring to?
MS our trans inclusive policy states very clear we should respect pronouns. If someone works at ERCC it doesn't matter what u think

NC if ur trying to get people to repeat obvious lies is by bullying them?
MS No
NC RA was frightened but spoke the truth anyway?
MS I don't know about that
NC and this org made it so noone would dare to speak the truth?
MS It was about RA behaviour to AB

NC Q at the heart is why RA was treated as she was and that ERCC would punish anyone with sex realist or GC belief. The reason ERCC responded as it did to RA polite enquiry of AB is bc the org is GCphobic, profoundly hostile to GC views?
MS No

MS We had had trans inclusion policy before 2016 before MW worked there.
NC ERCC has been subverted to proper purposes and turned to vanguard of trans activism. Its a flag shot of trans activism?
MS No

( missed)
MS It's about protecting everyone
NC You agree it was ur job to be conscience of the org?
MS Yes
NC You have a lot of work to do in that capacity?
MS Yes
J Qs DH?
DH yes

DH You were asked Qs about transinclusive policy on ERCC website. Could u turn to that at 177 please.
U were asked about statement in policy including staff. Do u see [reads 'regardless of personal history and including transwomen']
MS Yes

DH Two further Qs. Involving aspects of ur involvement in centre. What extent are u involved with provision of services within centre?
MS I do board meetings we have and report what's going on in centre.

DH You were asked Qs around RA period of absence. To what extent were u involved with Cs absence management?
MS RA brought up her sick pay was finishing in first lx meeting. I followed up with NCi and extended for 4 weeks and then 2 weeks

DH C went off sick. Were u having any comms with C, asides grievance?
MS No
DH Who would u expect to deal with that?
MS Her line manager
DH That would be Miss Townend?
MS Yes
(Missed)

DH That's all
J Evidence complete and free to go. Who is next?
DH Katie Horsburgh
J Adjourn for 5 mins

[Court adjourned]

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