February 15, 2024
Crypto Open Patent Alliance v Dr Craig Steven Wright "The Satoshi Trial" Master Thread.
Thursday, DAY 9.
PLEASE RETWEET FOR MAX CIRCULATION
Crypto Open Patent Alliance v Dr Craig Steven Wright "The Satoshi Trial" Master Thread.
Thursday, DAY 9.
PLEASE RETWEET FOR MAX CIRCULATION
Hough: Housekeeping matter. We were informed CSW's KC don't wish to cross examine Wuille, Trammel, Cellen-Jones and a few others. CSW made statements about them which were inconsistent with their written evidence or new matters entirely. Our understanding is that since they won't be cross examining, their evidence won't be disputed. We have asked for clarification on this matter.
Mellor: You don't want to call them to respond to the allegations, though, right?
Hough: We want them addressed. It's simply not satisfactory for CSW to have added details.
Gunning: Well, Wuille is our only witness, and we have drafted an order. I would add that if your Lordship has questions about his witness statement, we are keen that you have the opportunity to hear the voice of a [laughing] real developer of bitcoin instead of one who clearly isn't
Grabiner: What an absurd little bait. No good deed goes unpunished, huh?! We received a very demanding letter first thing this morning, and respectfully, the step you have taken is entirely unacceptable with your words and letter.
Hough: Nothing further
Grabiner [CSW's KC] requesting Ignatius Pang put on screen.
[PANG TAKING OATH] [Swears by Almighty God...]
Grab: GM, Dr Pang. Please confirm you see your witness statement.
Pang: Yes
Grab: This statement is true?
Pang: Yes, it's true
Hough: Before I get into evidence, have you watched his evidence over the last week and half?
Pang: I have watched Gavin Mehl on YouTube and another guy from @RealCoinGeek and a piece from Forbes.
Hough: You're a researcher in Bio Data?
Pang: Yes
Hough: Based on your Linkedin, you got your degree in 2005.
Pang: And graduated in 2006
Hough: At BDO?
PANG: It was BDO [something else] then, but BDO after.
Hough: Until 2009?
Pang: Yes.
Hough: Then Deloitte in 2010?
Pang: Yes
Hough: You worked with Craig at BDO?
Pang: Yes
Hough: After he left in 2008, you did some work with him in later years?
Pang: Yes, partly in writing papers and conference proceedings. Then I worked at Hotwire later.
Hough: You said it was casual work for Hotwire 2013-2015
Pang: With some break in the middle when the company was in administration and folded. But I came back later and helped too.
Hough: Employee or contractor?
Pang: Employee
Hough: Not for his other companies?
Pang: Correct. I was paid out of Hotwire. I knew of his [laughing] many other companies, but not involved.
Hough: No other work at the other companies?
Pang: To the best of my knowledge .
Hough: Did you coauthor a paper for Info Defense in 2009?
Pang: That will take some history. I authored it at BDO, but they wouldn't use it, so CSW asked for permission to use it. I borrowed info from a textbook to write it, so I didn't have a bunch of control over it when it was handed over.
Hough: So you were the sole author?
Pang: I was initially. CSW would have reviewed, and I don't know if he made changes. Maybe minor changes.
Hough: There's a doc coming up on screen. Is this the doc with Information Defense branding?
Pang: I recognize the logo with the "eternal vigilance is the cost of liberty" line which is from famous text, I think.
Hough: It says Pang and Wright as authors
Pang: Yes.
Hough: But he wasn't a co-author. He just reviewed
Pang: YEs, but he was my boss and came up with the idea to write it, so it was his idea to start.
Hough: Did he pay you?
Pang: BDO did.
Hough: Here's one of CSW's CVs from BDO. A summary of his work and responsibilities. Can you read it?
Pang: I don't understand what all these certifications are, but yes.
Hough: Is this an accurate summary of what Craig was up to?
Pang: Still reading [his qualifications]. Sorry. It's a birds eye view of his responsibilities, but definitely details that aren't listed like his digital forensics work that isn't here. He does very unique work with hard drives, etc...
Hough: Was it focused on IT Security and digital forensics?
Pang: He also does very advanced data analytics for clients.
Hough: You describe work you did on predatory behavior on social networks. Grooming, etc...
Pang: A bit. I didn't know about their work with defendants, but worked in data analytics.
Hough: In relation to a court case?
Pang: It was used in a court case, but I didn't know the names in the case until much later.
Hough: Is this a presentation you produced with Wright on it?
Pang: TO the best of my knowledge, yes. It looks like it.
Hough: It was modeling the social networks of two people based on their chats?
Pang: They were the target, but there were other people too. My role was mine the interactions and flesh them out.
Hough: The problem was the individuals could use multiple names on those networks.
Pang: Yes
Hough: He used names like Homie and the victim used names like AussieGirl
Pang: Yes
Hough: So you looked for names used by Homie and AussieGirl
Pang: Yes, regular expression matching. Similar sounding names...
Hough: You used Geome software?
Pang: Yes.
Hough: It's an analytical tool for visualizing networks .
Pang: Yes, all kinds of networks.
Hough: You describe visualizing AussieGirl's social network. And how they interact?
Pang: It's supposed to show how her friends interact, yes.
Hough: Did you draw conclusions about how they interact?
Pang: Not conclusions, but my interpretations. Expert opinion. Not definite.
Hough: You address a deduction that could be drawn about aliases.
Pang: Yes, my best guess, but needed to be scrutinized by the court.
Hough: You then show how software allows zooming in
Pang: Yes.
Hough: Then a similar exercise for Homie
Pang: Yes
Hough: Then Homie's friends
Pang: Yes
Hough: then you express your opinions for his network
Pang: Yes
Hough: Conclusion that AussieGirl isn't at the core of Homie's network.
Pang: Not at the core, but in the periphery.
Hough: Homie chats to more friends than Aussiegirl
Pang: In this incomplete network, yes. I recall Craig telling me we can't trust the data because we probably only have incomplete data.
Hough: You say Homie's friends are tightly connected, but Aussigirl doesn't have the same kind of closeness. Is it fair that this is a summary of the kind of work you did with Wright?
Pang: It was useful for that court case. I was asked not to read the messages between Homie and AussieGirl because they were unsettling, so I ignored them, so it was just data to me.
Hough: In your witness statement, you say that you discussed 3 concepts with Wright.
Pang: Yes. Guilt by association... [missed the others]
Hough: Guilt by association is that when there are lots of network connections, people can be part of the same clique?
Pang: In biological data setting, yes, if the data is reliable.
Hough: Second concept is proteins in a densely connected network. They're part of cores and bind stably together.
Pang: yes, this is well known in network analysis and all biological organisms.
Hough: and connections in new organisms.
Pang: I have learned this, but not able to duplicate gene analysis because it's out of my PHD scope, but it's new and exciting.
Hough: This is like the BDO work you did?
Pang: It was my first job outside of uni. I was a rookie then.
Hough: You were supporting the defense of someone who was grooming a victim?
Pang: As I understand it.
Hough: Wright thanked you for your work? and elaborated.
Pang: I laughed when he said nobody would complement me for my work ebcause of the nature of it.
Hough: A conversation about a lego set you got for your birthday. You said this was refreshed by conversations with Ontier. About this but not other parts of your statement.
Pang: Yes.
Hough: Is that becuase this part was part of something important.
Pang: Those things help me recall old memories.
Hough: You recount a conversation which took place over 15 years ago. You didn't write it down anywhere at the time?
Pang: No, but the word blockchain is strange because I think he should have said a chain of blocks
Mellor: You don't want to call them to respond to the allegations, though, right?
Hough: We want them addressed. It's simply not satisfactory for CSW to have added details.
Gunning: Well, Wuille is our only witness, and we have drafted an order. I would add that if your Lordship has questions about his witness statement, we are keen that you have the opportunity to hear the voice of a [laughing] real developer of bitcoin instead of one who clearly isn't
Grabiner: What an absurd little bait. No good deed goes unpunished, huh?! We received a very demanding letter first thing this morning, and respectfully, the step you have taken is entirely unacceptable with your words and letter.
Hough: Nothing further
Grabiner [CSW's KC] requesting Ignatius Pang put on screen.
[PANG TAKING OATH] [Swears by Almighty God...]
Grab: GM, Dr Pang. Please confirm you see your witness statement.
Pang: Yes
Grab: This statement is true?
Pang: Yes, it's true
Hough: Before I get into evidence, have you watched his evidence over the last week and half?
Pang: I have watched Gavin Mehl on YouTube and another guy from @RealCoinGeek and a piece from Forbes.
Hough: You're a researcher in Bio Data?
Pang: Yes
Hough: Based on your Linkedin, you got your degree in 2005.
Pang: And graduated in 2006
Hough: At BDO?
PANG: It was BDO [something else] then, but BDO after.
Hough: Until 2009?
Pang: Yes.
Hough: Then Deloitte in 2010?
Pang: Yes
Hough: You worked with Craig at BDO?
Pang: Yes
Hough: After he left in 2008, you did some work with him in later years?
Pang: Yes, partly in writing papers and conference proceedings. Then I worked at Hotwire later.
Hough: You said it was casual work for Hotwire 2013-2015
Pang: With some break in the middle when the company was in administration and folded. But I came back later and helped too.
Hough: Employee or contractor?
Pang: Employee
Hough: Not for his other companies?
Pang: Correct. I was paid out of Hotwire. I knew of his [laughing] many other companies, but not involved.
Hough: No other work at the other companies?
Pang: To the best of my knowledge .
Hough: Did you coauthor a paper for Info Defense in 2009?
Pang: That will take some history. I authored it at BDO, but they wouldn't use it, so CSW asked for permission to use it. I borrowed info from a textbook to write it, so I didn't have a bunch of control over it when it was handed over.
Hough: So you were the sole author?
Pang: I was initially. CSW would have reviewed, and I don't know if he made changes. Maybe minor changes.
Hough: There's a doc coming up on screen. Is this the doc with Information Defense branding?
Pang: I recognize the logo with the "eternal vigilance is the cost of liberty" line which is from famous text, I think.
Hough: It says Pang and Wright as authors
Pang: Yes.
Hough: But he wasn't a co-author. He just reviewed
Pang: YEs, but he was my boss and came up with the idea to write it, so it was his idea to start.
Hough: Did he pay you?
Pang: BDO did.
Hough: Here's one of CSW's CVs from BDO. A summary of his work and responsibilities. Can you read it?
Pang: I don't understand what all these certifications are, but yes.
Hough: Is this an accurate summary of what Craig was up to?
Pang: Still reading [his qualifications]. Sorry. It's a birds eye view of his responsibilities, but definitely details that aren't listed like his digital forensics work that isn't here. He does very unique work with hard drives, etc...
Hough: Was it focused on IT Security and digital forensics?
Pang: He also does very advanced data analytics for clients.
Hough: You describe work you did on predatory behavior on social networks. Grooming, etc...
Pang: A bit. I didn't know about their work with defendants, but worked in data analytics.
Hough: In relation to a court case?
Pang: It was used in a court case, but I didn't know the names in the case until much later.
Hough: Is this a presentation you produced with Wright on it?
Pang: TO the best of my knowledge, yes. It looks like it.
Hough: It was modeling the social networks of two people based on their chats?
Pang: They were the target, but there were other people too. My role was mine the interactions and flesh them out.
Hough: The problem was the individuals could use multiple names on those networks.
Pang: Yes
Hough: He used names like Homie and the victim used names like AussieGirl
Pang: Yes
Hough: So you looked for names used by Homie and AussieGirl
Pang: Yes, regular expression matching. Similar sounding names...
Hough: You used Geome software?
Pang: Yes.
Hough: It's an analytical tool for visualizing networks .
Pang: Yes, all kinds of networks.
Hough: You describe visualizing AussieGirl's social network. And how they interact?
Pang: It's supposed to show how her friends interact, yes.
Hough: Did you draw conclusions about how they interact?
Pang: Not conclusions, but my interpretations. Expert opinion. Not definite.
Hough: You address a deduction that could be drawn about aliases.
Pang: Yes, my best guess, but needed to be scrutinized by the court.
Hough: You then show how software allows zooming in
Pang: Yes.
Hough: Then a similar exercise for Homie
Pang: Yes
Hough: Then Homie's friends
Pang: Yes
Hough: then you express your opinions for his network
Pang: Yes
Hough: Conclusion that AussieGirl isn't at the core of Homie's network.
Pang: Not at the core, but in the periphery.
Hough: Homie chats to more friends than Aussiegirl
Pang: In this incomplete network, yes. I recall Craig telling me we can't trust the data because we probably only have incomplete data.
Hough: You say Homie's friends are tightly connected, but Aussigirl doesn't have the same kind of closeness. Is it fair that this is a summary of the kind of work you did with Wright?
Pang: It was useful for that court case. I was asked not to read the messages between Homie and AussieGirl because they were unsettling, so I ignored them, so it was just data to me.
Hough: In your witness statement, you say that you discussed 3 concepts with Wright.
Pang: Yes. Guilt by association... [missed the others]
Hough: Guilt by association is that when there are lots of network connections, people can be part of the same clique?
Pang: In biological data setting, yes, if the data is reliable.
Hough: Second concept is proteins in a densely connected network. They're part of cores and bind stably together.
Pang: yes, this is well known in network analysis and all biological organisms.
Hough: and connections in new organisms.
Pang: I have learned this, but not able to duplicate gene analysis because it's out of my PHD scope, but it's new and exciting.
Hough: This is like the BDO work you did?
Pang: It was my first job outside of uni. I was a rookie then.
Hough: You were supporting the defense of someone who was grooming a victim?
Pang: As I understand it.
Hough: Wright thanked you for your work? and elaborated.
Pang: I laughed when he said nobody would complement me for my work ebcause of the nature of it.
Hough: A conversation about a lego set you got for your birthday. You said this was refreshed by conversations with Ontier. About this but not other parts of your statement.
Pang: Yes.
Hough: Is that becuase this part was part of something important.
Pang: Those things help me recall old memories.
Hough: You recount a conversation which took place over 15 years ago. You didn't write it down anywhere at the time?
Pang: No, but the word blockchain is strange because I think he should have said a chain of blocks
Hough: You recall this from a conversation with CSW's lawyers?
Pang: Yes.
Hough: You said you bought a Batman legoset? The Tumbler Joker's Ice Cream suprise.
Pang: lol yes.
Hough: It's an ice cream truck hit by the joker? ages 7-12
Pang: [laughing embarrased] yes.
Hough: You suggested to craig it could be collectible
Pang: I wish it was.
Hough: He said you should build a lego blockchain as long as you should?
Pang: Yes, which was strange. I asked if a tower was a chain
Hough: Lego Technic bricks for more complex formations?
Pang: Yes, it's for making gears for cars or other more technical things. I have had a few.
Hough: You were reminded about the legos and technic bricks when making your statement. Were you reminded by someone else?
Pang: No, it just popped into my mind. Can I blame a change in lawyers for not remembering who I mentioned it to, but I remember telling this to Travers Smith, I think. I remember
Hough: You asked how a blockchain would be built.
Pang: he said it would be like a chinese recursive chain and then he walked out the room quickly.
Hough: You know what that meant?
Pang: I had one as a child and remember it fondly. I think I gave mine away to a friend.
Hough: Trying to build a chinese chain puzzle from legos would be hopeless?
Pang: It would be hard with basic lego bricks because it would fall apart easily.
Pang: Yes.
Hough: You said you bought a Batman legoset? The Tumbler Joker's Ice Cream suprise.
Pang: lol yes.
Hough: It's an ice cream truck hit by the joker? ages 7-12
Pang: [laughing embarrased] yes.
Hough: You suggested to craig it could be collectible
Pang: I wish it was.
Hough: He said you should build a lego blockchain as long as you should?
Pang: Yes, which was strange. I asked if a tower was a chain
Hough: Lego Technic bricks for more complex formations?
Pang: Yes, it's for making gears for cars or other more technical things. I have had a few.
Hough: You were reminded about the legos and technic bricks when making your statement. Were you reminded by someone else?
Pang: No, it just popped into my mind. Can I blame a change in lawyers for not remembering who I mentioned it to, but I remember telling this to Travers Smith, I think. I remember
Hough: You asked how a blockchain would be built.
Pang: he said it would be like a chinese recursive chain and then he walked out the room quickly.
Hough: You know what that meant?
Pang: I had one as a child and remember it fondly. I think I gave mine away to a friend.
Hough: Trying to build a chinese chain puzzle from legos would be hopeless?
Pang: It would be hard with basic lego bricks because it would fall apart easily.
Pang: One thing about legos, is that they are tested very thoroughly. If we built something like that, the forces would be unusual.
Hough: You showed your senior colleague a lego set, and he challenges you to build something you don't understand?
Pang: Yes.
Hough: He says build a Chinese chain puzzle and you said it was hopeless?
Pang: Yes
Hough: This would have made no sense at all would it?
Pang: That's how Craig is. He will say he ate Babe the Pig from the movie. People make fun and banter to establish dominance.
Hough: That's an odd joke
Pang: Ok
Hough: Your account is confused and confusing
Pang: It didn't make sense at the time. I don't know why he said these things. I only share because you're asking.
Hough: Your hazy recollection isn't reliable.
Pang: But the date of the lego set and the word blockchain is 100% clear in my mind.
Hough: Very strange to remember one word as reliable.
Pang: The legos are reliable.
Hough: You don't say there was any bigger connection to digital cash at the time?
Pang: He mentioned bitcoin with me and Hector Mabarang too at different times.
Hough: You showed your senior colleague a lego set, and he challenges you to build something you don't understand?
Pang: Yes.
Hough: He says build a Chinese chain puzzle and you said it was hopeless?
Pang: Yes
Hough: This would have made no sense at all would it?
Pang: That's how Craig is. He will say he ate Babe the Pig from the movie. People make fun and banter to establish dominance.
Hough: That's an odd joke
Pang: Ok
Hough: Your account is confused and confusing
Pang: It didn't make sense at the time. I don't know why he said these things. I only share because you're asking.
Hough: Your hazy recollection isn't reliable.
Pang: But the date of the lego set and the word blockchain is 100% clear in my mind.
Hough: Very strange to remember one word as reliable.
Pang: The legos are reliable.
Hough: You don't say there was any bigger connection to digital cash at the time?
Pang: He mentioned bitcoin with me and Hector Mabarang too at different times.
Hough: You also recall him mentioning his Japanese name but never wrote it down? You say it took place after being sick from whooping cough in 2008. You were off sick and then the convo happened after then some time? The conversatin not before december 2008?
Pang: It would be right before November 2008.
[Noting Craig said his witnesses don't want to be bullied]
Hough: You recall it being Satoshi Nakamoto?
Pang: Yes
Hough: You wrote it in a notebook?
Pang: Yes, I lost it when I was working on a case. I wrote something unfavorable about a witness, so I didn't get the book back. I googled the name.
Hough: And no other talks with anyone else on the subject?
Pang: I spoke to Ron about it briefly. Nobody else every again.
Hough: You didn't talk to anyone after googling?
Pang: No
Hough: You recall Ron saying it might be an alias of Craig?
Pang: Yes
Hough: If a person had an alias for privacy, it would be weird to talk about it at the office?
Pang: You know Ironman? Or if Clark Kent would go around talking about Superman.
Hough: This is another hazy recollection
Pang: I didn't know exactly what he said, but he used Japanese alias.
Hough: I'm not sugesting you're being dishonest, but it is hazy
Pang: Yes, it is hazy.
Hough: You also appear on a tax doc of Craig's. You weren't involved in R&D on tax docs? Are you aware C01N claimed a credit in 2013 for work you did in 2013 as a contractor?
Pang: I thought I was an employee, but the R&D business wasn't known to me until I found out later. He brought me in to share my work to support his claims with the ATO though.
Hough: See this document. The ATO decision on C01N. Have you seen this before?
Pang: No
Hough: Are these things correct? 14 August 2014, C01N advised it occurred $5000 cost to Pang as a contractor from a trust for a license, etc... Do you see that?
Pang: I don't know what those licenses mentioned are.
Hough: Did you receive an assignment of licenses?
Pang: I don't know which these would be. I have taken money for employment, but I don't know about this other property or licenses.
Hough: ATO said C01N showed an invoice issued by Wright to C01N describing transfer of ownership and licensese and hardware of SBSS..
Pang: I don't know how to use SBSS in my work.
Hough: You didn't receive SBSS licenses?
Pang: Even if I did, I wouldn't know how to use. I don't use it in my work. ever.
Hough: So you didn't get them from C01N or Strasse?
Pang: No
Hough: CSW invoice C01N as agent for you. Did you have an arrangement with C01N without a contract?
Pang: I am not sure. I was working for Hotwire PE when ATO asked. I worked my guts off in my work and showed that to the ATO when asked.
Hough: Did you sign an agreement that Wright could invoice for you?
Pang: Please repeat
Hough: The suggestion is that you appointed Craig to invoice C01N on your behalf.
Pang: I don't recall that off the top of my head.
Pang: It would be right before November 2008.
[Noting Craig said his witnesses don't want to be bullied]
Hough: You recall it being Satoshi Nakamoto?
Pang: Yes
Hough: You wrote it in a notebook?
Pang: Yes, I lost it when I was working on a case. I wrote something unfavorable about a witness, so I didn't get the book back. I googled the name.
Hough: And no other talks with anyone else on the subject?
Pang: I spoke to Ron about it briefly. Nobody else every again.
Hough: You didn't talk to anyone after googling?
Pang: No
Hough: You recall Ron saying it might be an alias of Craig?
Pang: Yes
Hough: If a person had an alias for privacy, it would be weird to talk about it at the office?
Pang: You know Ironman? Or if Clark Kent would go around talking about Superman.
Hough: This is another hazy recollection
Pang: I didn't know exactly what he said, but he used Japanese alias.
Hough: I'm not sugesting you're being dishonest, but it is hazy
Pang: Yes, it is hazy.
Hough: You also appear on a tax doc of Craig's. You weren't involved in R&D on tax docs? Are you aware C01N claimed a credit in 2013 for work you did in 2013 as a contractor?
Pang: I thought I was an employee, but the R&D business wasn't known to me until I found out later. He brought me in to share my work to support his claims with the ATO though.
Hough: See this document. The ATO decision on C01N. Have you seen this before?
Pang: No
Hough: Are these things correct? 14 August 2014, C01N advised it occurred $5000 cost to Pang as a contractor from a trust for a license, etc... Do you see that?
Pang: I don't know what those licenses mentioned are.
Hough: Did you receive an assignment of licenses?
Pang: I don't know which these would be. I have taken money for employment, but I don't know about this other property or licenses.
Hough: ATO said C01N showed an invoice issued by Wright to C01N describing transfer of ownership and licensese and hardware of SBSS..
Pang: I don't know how to use SBSS in my work.
Hough: You didn't receive SBSS licenses?
Pang: Even if I did, I wouldn't know how to use. I don't use it in my work. ever.
Hough: So you didn't get them from C01N or Strasse?
Pang: No
Hough: CSW invoice C01N as agent for you. Did you have an arrangement with C01N without a contract?
Pang: I am not sure. I was working for Hotwire PE when ATO asked. I worked my guts off in my work and showed that to the ATO when asked.
Hough: Did you sign an agreement that Wright could invoice for you?
Pang: Please repeat
Hough: The suggestion is that you appointed Craig to invoice C01N on your behalf.
Pang: I don't recall that off the top of my head.
Hough: So you didn't get $5000?
Pang: I don't know. I received a laptop and a printer and employment. I don't recall software.
Hough: There were accounting discrepancies. Were you aware?
Pang: No
Hough: There were R&D tax offsets. The ATO said C01N provided contradictory accounts about your employment of contractor status. You didn't receive licenses?
Pang: Correct.
Hough: Those are my questions.
Pang: Thank you
Grab: Thank you Dr Pang
Mellor: Thank you. You're released.
Mellor: Ten Minute Break [Laughing about something off camera]
Pang: I don't know. I received a laptop and a printer and employment. I don't recall software.
Hough: There were accounting discrepancies. Were you aware?
Pang: No
Hough: There were R&D tax offsets. The ATO said C01N provided contradictory accounts about your employment of contractor status. You didn't receive licenses?
Pang: Correct.
Hough: Those are my questions.
Pang: Thank you
Grab: Thank you Dr Pang
Mellor: Thank you. You're released.
Mellor: Ten Minute Break [Laughing about something off camera]
Grabiner: Next witness is Mr Jenkins.
[Jenkins swear oath]
Grab: Is this your witness statement?
Jenk: Yes
COPA [new dude with a wild accent]: Have you seen CSW's evidence?
Jenk: No. some commentary in passing.
COPA: Where?
Jenk: Ads for articles. Headlines...
COPA: Your background with Wright was Vodafone. You hired DeMorgan to implement firewalls and physical security?
Jenk: Yes
COPA: BDO CV says Aussie exchange and Lasseters. He doesn't mention Vodafone.
Jenk: Guess not.
COPA: He didn't think it was important?
Jenk: CV are tailored to the work I'm trying to obtain.
COPA: He describes founding DeMorgan in 1997 with aim to further IT security. DeMorgan provided IT security to top 150 companies in Aus. They were doing Vodafone standard IT Security work?
Jenk: It wasn't standard. It was an evolving area at the time.
COPA: Your statement mentions a log file. When you say that, are you referring to a specific log file?
Jenk: Log for the firewall itself. Traffic.
COPA: Further down, you give evidence of CSW creating a system to create log entries.
Jenk: Correct
COPA: You use the phrase "genesis log entry" but don't see any documentation of that term.
Jenk: Correct
COPA: You mention it because bitcoin uses Genesis block?
Jenk: When we went down the rabbit hole on how to stop docs from being tampered with, Craig described it as using hashing, hashing serials, and I asked how to differentiate between old and new files. HE described it as saying the genesis log file would be obvious.
COPA: You have given evidence here and in Norway Granath trial?
Jenk: Yes
COPA: He has discussed being Satoshi?
Jenk: Not in an on-going basis. It was culmination that led me to understand he was Satoshi.
COPA: It was discussed?
Jenk: It had been discussed yes.
COPA: Since at least 2016, you're mentioned in the O'Hagan Satoshi Affair.
Jenk: We spoke in Sydney a long time ago.
COPA: Did Wright tell you Andrew would be in touch?
Jenk: If I recall, yes.
COPA: So he told you he wanted you to speak to a journalist?
Jenk: He said someone wanted to write a story about him and asked if I would talk about his early work.
COPA: And when you spoke, you were aware of his claim to be Satoshi.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: You last saw this firewell up close in June 2000 when you left Vodafone, so your memories are near 24 years old.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: Let's check your paragraph. Each number would have an identifier.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: Row1, Row2...
Jenk: Yes
COPA: A sequential database?
Jenk: A text file. A sequential list
[Jenkins swear oath]
Grab: Is this your witness statement?
Jenk: Yes
COPA [new dude with a wild accent]: Have you seen CSW's evidence?
Jenk: No. some commentary in passing.
COPA: Where?
Jenk: Ads for articles. Headlines...
COPA: Your background with Wright was Vodafone. You hired DeMorgan to implement firewalls and physical security?
Jenk: Yes
COPA: BDO CV says Aussie exchange and Lasseters. He doesn't mention Vodafone.
Jenk: Guess not.
COPA: He didn't think it was important?
Jenk: CV are tailored to the work I'm trying to obtain.
COPA: He describes founding DeMorgan in 1997 with aim to further IT security. DeMorgan provided IT security to top 150 companies in Aus. They were doing Vodafone standard IT Security work?
Jenk: It wasn't standard. It was an evolving area at the time.
COPA: Your statement mentions a log file. When you say that, are you referring to a specific log file?
Jenk: Log for the firewall itself. Traffic.
COPA: Further down, you give evidence of CSW creating a system to create log entries.
Jenk: Correct
COPA: You use the phrase "genesis log entry" but don't see any documentation of that term.
Jenk: Correct
COPA: You mention it because bitcoin uses Genesis block?
Jenk: When we went down the rabbit hole on how to stop docs from being tampered with, Craig described it as using hashing, hashing serials, and I asked how to differentiate between old and new files. HE described it as saying the genesis log file would be obvious.
COPA: You have given evidence here and in Norway Granath trial?
Jenk: Yes
COPA: He has discussed being Satoshi?
Jenk: Not in an on-going basis. It was culmination that led me to understand he was Satoshi.
COPA: It was discussed?
Jenk: It had been discussed yes.
COPA: Since at least 2016, you're mentioned in the O'Hagan Satoshi Affair.
Jenk: We spoke in Sydney a long time ago.
COPA: Did Wright tell you Andrew would be in touch?
Jenk: If I recall, yes.
COPA: So he told you he wanted you to speak to a journalist?
Jenk: He said someone wanted to write a story about him and asked if I would talk about his early work.
COPA: And when you spoke, you were aware of his claim to be Satoshi.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: You last saw this firewell up close in June 2000 when you left Vodafone, so your memories are near 24 years old.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: Let's check your paragraph. Each number would have an identifier.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: Row1, Row2...
Jenk: Yes
COPA: A sequential database?
Jenk: A text file. A sequential list
COPA: You left vodafone to go to Comindico and here you say you heard of e-gold. 2000-2002 roughly?
Jenk: Yes
COPA: You say before ebay and paypal in 2002?
Jenk: Before available in Australia anyways.
COPA: Ebay and Paypal are from 1995 and 1998. Ebay bought paypal in 2002. Your statement can't be correct. What are you saying?
Jenk: It might have been available, but not easily and I was saying only an escrow service was available in Aus.
COPA: Your testimony in Granath. The judge asked you to tel the truth and that it's punishable to lie. Do you recall that? And you abided?
Jenk: Yes. to the best of my ability.
COPA: Did you take an interest in egold? Yes. What is it? Egold was a payment tech from the 90's and I got some in 2001. You mention here specifically 2001 but you give a more wolly timeframe in 2000-2002. Which is accurate?
Jenk: In Norway, I was given the luxury of going through all my emails to check. I used egold to buy something in 2001.
COPA: You didn't do that for this trial?
Jenk: I was specifically told not to use old data to prep this witness statement.
COPA: Here's your docs. Did you read this transcript?
Jenk: I wasn't sent this. I never received transcripts to review.
COPA: You said there wasn't a way to make these payments at the time. This interested Wright. You called it a passing note in 2001 and was focused on telecom, but you said in Granath that Wright's interest in egold was "a passing note"
Jenk: I'm just reading it now. It says it's an inaudible bit, so interpretting it would seem to suggest a whole bunch of other things.
COPA: Question about when you would catch up in 2008. You'd bump into each other and catch up every 12-18 months?
Jenk: Yes
COPA: What would you talk about in this specific conversation?
Jenk: We talked about the trust put into a piece of paper and how it would be better if there was something better than a paper promissory note.
COPA: You say his words were essentially that escrow was around for some time, but there's still trust. Are those his actual words?
Jenk: Well, it was the conversation. Not a word for word quote.
COPA: You were an investor in egold?
Jenk: A user. I'm not really an investor in anything.
COPA: No record of Wright using egold?
Jenk: I'm unsure. He knew about it and other escrow services. egold was big in australia.
COPA: Any other competing currencies?
Jenk: there were a few, but egold was discussed in IT magazines and stuff.
COPA: Any specifics?
Jenk: Off the top of my head, no. In Norway, I was asked to specifically search old messages. My memory is based on me searching there 18 months ago for Granath.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: You say before ebay and paypal in 2002?
Jenk: Before available in Australia anyways.
COPA: Ebay and Paypal are from 1995 and 1998. Ebay bought paypal in 2002. Your statement can't be correct. What are you saying?
Jenk: It might have been available, but not easily and I was saying only an escrow service was available in Aus.
COPA: Your testimony in Granath. The judge asked you to tel the truth and that it's punishable to lie. Do you recall that? And you abided?
Jenk: Yes. to the best of my ability.
COPA: Did you take an interest in egold? Yes. What is it? Egold was a payment tech from the 90's and I got some in 2001. You mention here specifically 2001 but you give a more wolly timeframe in 2000-2002. Which is accurate?
Jenk: In Norway, I was given the luxury of going through all my emails to check. I used egold to buy something in 2001.
COPA: You didn't do that for this trial?
Jenk: I was specifically told not to use old data to prep this witness statement.
COPA: Here's your docs. Did you read this transcript?
Jenk: I wasn't sent this. I never received transcripts to review.
COPA: You said there wasn't a way to make these payments at the time. This interested Wright. You called it a passing note in 2001 and was focused on telecom, but you said in Granath that Wright's interest in egold was "a passing note"
Jenk: I'm just reading it now. It says it's an inaudible bit, so interpretting it would seem to suggest a whole bunch of other things.
COPA: Question about when you would catch up in 2008. You'd bump into each other and catch up every 12-18 months?
Jenk: Yes
COPA: What would you talk about in this specific conversation?
Jenk: We talked about the trust put into a piece of paper and how it would be better if there was something better than a paper promissory note.
COPA: You say his words were essentially that escrow was around for some time, but there's still trust. Are those his actual words?
Jenk: Well, it was the conversation. Not a word for word quote.
COPA: You were an investor in egold?
Jenk: A user. I'm not really an investor in anything.
COPA: No record of Wright using egold?
Jenk: I'm unsure. He knew about it and other escrow services. egold was big in australia.
COPA: Any other competing currencies?
Jenk: there were a few, but egold was discussed in IT magazines and stuff.
COPA: Any specifics?
Jenk: Off the top of my head, no. In Norway, I was asked to specifically search old messages. My memory is based on me searching there 18 months ago for Granath.
COPA: After Dotcom bubble burst, you moved to Commonwealth Bank in 2002. You and Wright talked about a bunch of things. Things that may relate to the broad concepts around bitcoin. And other topics? Like what?
Jenk: For Commonwealth, it would have been RFP for the firewall architecture. Because Craig was doing this work, we would talk about global financial institution security.
COPA: In Granath, you also talked non-tech.
Jenk: Mostly tech though. Mobile and banking was a big thing at the time. Finance in your hand was big and new at the time!
COPA: Mobile while at Voda and banking while at Commonwealth?
Jenk: And vice versa. They were merging at the time. FinTech.
COPA: You don't say that in your statement. You recall first hearing about blockchain in 2008. Was it Wright who told you?
Jenk: Yes, that's my recollection.
COPA: You noted that looking back at all of this with hindsight of what we now know.
Jenk: Yes, and the research I did to look at old emails and conversations.
COPA: Do you have a document mentioning blockchain from then?
Jenk: I was asked not to refer to old documents for this. I may well have evidence.
COPA: You might have evidence from Wright from 2008 about blockchain?
Jenk: Yes, but I was told not to look at old stuff.
COPA: Are you aware of BAck's Hashcash paper from 1997 precedes this era and says block chain?
Jenk: No. I don't know about that in 1997
COPA: We're in 2008.
Jenk: Didn't you just say 1997?
COPA: You don't have docs?
Jenk: I was asked specfically not to refresh my memory in any way for this case.
COPA: Are you aware blockchain doesn't appear in the bitcoin white paper?
Jenk: I am.
COPA: In 2005, your evidence is that you were discussing currency with Craig because of your banking work.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: So you were working on a currency project?
Jenk: Yes, banking, trust and fiat vs other currency. He used the term fiat currency which got me into studying the issues of fiat currency.
COPA: It's important to be precise. Some of your conversations in 2005 were about your projects. It must have been you that raised the topic of currency because Craig wouldn't have known unless you told him.
Jenk: That's a logical way to look at it.
COPA: What was the project called?
Jenk: I don't remember.
COPA: Because of the passage of time?
Jenk: I suppose. But the conversation started because I paid for lunch with cash.
COPA: In mid-2007, you discussed a system called Opera between the bank and a research firm about grid computing. Grid computing precedes Opera?
Jenk: Yes
COPA: You also mention SETI project for people to participate in gathering data about space?
Jenk: yes.
COPA: You say you two were talking about Opera arising from your work, not his.
Jenk: Correct:
COPA: You talk about breaking up computation over nodes.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: Nodes are a basic compsci term?
Jenk: Yes.
COPA: No notes on this? None disclosed?
Jenk: No
COPA: You're now looking at this through hindsight?
Jenk: From 18 months ago about Opera.
COPA: So that would have involved a conversations about other networks?
Jenk: Well, things like BitTorrent, I would have understood but Craig was often talking about networks and such.
Jenk: For Commonwealth, it would have been RFP for the firewall architecture. Because Craig was doing this work, we would talk about global financial institution security.
COPA: In Granath, you also talked non-tech.
Jenk: Mostly tech though. Mobile and banking was a big thing at the time. Finance in your hand was big and new at the time!
COPA: Mobile while at Voda and banking while at Commonwealth?
Jenk: And vice versa. They were merging at the time. FinTech.
COPA: You don't say that in your statement. You recall first hearing about blockchain in 2008. Was it Wright who told you?
Jenk: Yes, that's my recollection.
COPA: You noted that looking back at all of this with hindsight of what we now know.
Jenk: Yes, and the research I did to look at old emails and conversations.
COPA: Do you have a document mentioning blockchain from then?
Jenk: I was asked not to refer to old documents for this. I may well have evidence.
COPA: You might have evidence from Wright from 2008 about blockchain?
Jenk: Yes, but I was told not to look at old stuff.
COPA: Are you aware of BAck's Hashcash paper from 1997 precedes this era and says block chain?
Jenk: No. I don't know about that in 1997
COPA: We're in 2008.
Jenk: Didn't you just say 1997?
COPA: You don't have docs?
Jenk: I was asked specfically not to refresh my memory in any way for this case.
COPA: Are you aware blockchain doesn't appear in the bitcoin white paper?
Jenk: I am.
COPA: In 2005, your evidence is that you were discussing currency with Craig because of your banking work.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: So you were working on a currency project?
Jenk: Yes, banking, trust and fiat vs other currency. He used the term fiat currency which got me into studying the issues of fiat currency.
COPA: It's important to be precise. Some of your conversations in 2005 were about your projects. It must have been you that raised the topic of currency because Craig wouldn't have known unless you told him.
Jenk: That's a logical way to look at it.
COPA: What was the project called?
Jenk: I don't remember.
COPA: Because of the passage of time?
Jenk: I suppose. But the conversation started because I paid for lunch with cash.
COPA: In mid-2007, you discussed a system called Opera between the bank and a research firm about grid computing. Grid computing precedes Opera?
Jenk: Yes
COPA: You also mention SETI project for people to participate in gathering data about space?
Jenk: yes.
COPA: You say you two were talking about Opera arising from your work, not his.
Jenk: Correct:
COPA: You talk about breaking up computation over nodes.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: Nodes are a basic compsci term?
Jenk: Yes.
COPA: No notes on this? None disclosed?
Jenk: No
COPA: You're now looking at this through hindsight?
Jenk: From 18 months ago about Opera.
COPA: So that would have involved a conversations about other networks?
Jenk: Well, things like BitTorrent, I would have understood but Craig was often talking about networks and such.
COPA: Moving on, you said you talked about the problems of Central Banks at a time you were working at a bank. You went to BTE(?) in 2008?
Jenk: I jumped to there to deliver a project.
COPA: You recall conversations about blockchain?
Jenk: Yes
COPA: And you knew Craig was Satoshi and looking back at events to try and see if they make sense to support his claim?
Jenk: I found out he was later, but looking back was ordered so I could check my old messages.
COPA: And we have been deprived of such evidence in these proceedings?
Jenk: Correct.
COPA: And we don't have docs?
Jenk: We had a napkin drawing that I recall.
COPA: There's an email about a lunch, but no details written about blockchain from then.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: Do you accept that details of a lunch from 16 years ago would be hard to remember?
Jenk: In general, but GFC was a big time in our lives and we went through that together, so it is more vivid.
COPA: the financial crisis?
Jenk: Yes
COPA: You joined WestPAC in 2010?
Jenk: Yes
COPA: mining is a fairly common term in compsci?
Jenk: And I was a SETI member, so I also understood distributed computing.
COPA: How did that work?
Jenk: Work would be spread between computer nodes and work on computations.
COPA: Details matter. We need to be clear. You're talking about mining in 2009. Are you saying he mentioned bitcoin to you?
Jenk: It was mentioned explicitly, but he asked me to do some mining which was running code to spread out computing on tasks, but he didn't say bitcoin.
COPA: From Granath, it was early 2011 when you first heard bitcoin.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: You tied that memory to you being at WestPAC.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: September 2010, you started at WestPAC
Jenk: Yes
COPA: You said Craig asked you to buy bitcoin in that year? the evidence you have given today says you first heard bitcoin in 2009 or 2010. That can't be correct.
Jenk: I had the benefit of materials in the other case. In this case, I was told not to brush up or clarify. Both say 2010.
COPA: You were very clear in Granath that it was at WestPAC.
Jenk: Nonetheless, 2010.
COPA: Couldn't have been 2009
Jenk: It would seem to be. the word "around" covers that.
COPA: No. In 2011, bitcoin was well known. This is important. Theres a clear inconsistency.
Jenk: As I've said, when I have the benefit of using reference material, I'll have better recollection.
COPA: I'd suggest to you, you are confused based on what you now know.
Jenk: I don't accept that.
COPA: You were asked if you were personal or professional. You said that across job roles, the relationship was largely about work. You were asked if Craig showed you a white paper about blockchain. You said no. You remembered a meeting where he said he might get something in the post. Your Granath evidence is better than this evidence here?
Jenk: He didn't send me anything in the post. I didn't say he didn't show me anything. Can you play what I said?
COPA: He didn't send you the white paper?
Jenk: No.
COPA: that's all we want to clarify.
COPA: You also discussed when you first heard of bitcoin. You'll see a question asking if you were still in contact with him when he was outed in 2015, but you heard from the news. He never told you he was Satoshi.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: You said you had to reflect and replayed conversations where you say bitcoin evolve as a concept over many years, but it was feasible given your interactions with him. There's a frank admission from you where you say it's feasible. Are you aware that other individuals are possible candidates like Hal, Szabo, Back, Ulbricht? You haven't looked into the other individuals and ruled them out?
Jenk: No, just recounting what I've been asked to do. I have no interest in who else, but I think it stacks up that it would be Craig.
COPA: So you have the prism of hindsight.
Jenk: Getting to know him over the years, he's a very unique individual. He's very shy of publicity and his work. But I've also seen him very gregorious and passionate in his work. It's no suprise he'd use a pseudonym.
COPA: But you weren't in the room, as it were.
Jenk: No I wasn't.
COPA: You discussed egold, currencies in 2005 when you were working. And grid computing because you were working on it. All of these topics are based on things YOU were working on. This reflects your career. Not him. You're not secretly Satoshi Nakamoto.
Jenk [Long Pause]. No.
COPA: Why the pause?
Jenk: For effect.
COPA: Whew. That would have been a surprise.
Jenk: I jumped to there to deliver a project.
COPA: You recall conversations about blockchain?
Jenk: Yes
COPA: And you knew Craig was Satoshi and looking back at events to try and see if they make sense to support his claim?
Jenk: I found out he was later, but looking back was ordered so I could check my old messages.
COPA: And we have been deprived of such evidence in these proceedings?
Jenk: Correct.
COPA: And we don't have docs?
Jenk: We had a napkin drawing that I recall.
COPA: There's an email about a lunch, but no details written about blockchain from then.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: Do you accept that details of a lunch from 16 years ago would be hard to remember?
Jenk: In general, but GFC was a big time in our lives and we went through that together, so it is more vivid.
COPA: the financial crisis?
Jenk: Yes
COPA: You joined WestPAC in 2010?
Jenk: Yes
COPA: mining is a fairly common term in compsci?
Jenk: And I was a SETI member, so I also understood distributed computing.
COPA: How did that work?
Jenk: Work would be spread between computer nodes and work on computations.
COPA: Details matter. We need to be clear. You're talking about mining in 2009. Are you saying he mentioned bitcoin to you?
Jenk: It was mentioned explicitly, but he asked me to do some mining which was running code to spread out computing on tasks, but he didn't say bitcoin.
COPA: From Granath, it was early 2011 when you first heard bitcoin.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: You tied that memory to you being at WestPAC.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: September 2010, you started at WestPAC
Jenk: Yes
COPA: You said Craig asked you to buy bitcoin in that year? the evidence you have given today says you first heard bitcoin in 2009 or 2010. That can't be correct.
Jenk: I had the benefit of materials in the other case. In this case, I was told not to brush up or clarify. Both say 2010.
COPA: You were very clear in Granath that it was at WestPAC.
Jenk: Nonetheless, 2010.
COPA: Couldn't have been 2009
Jenk: It would seem to be. the word "around" covers that.
COPA: No. In 2011, bitcoin was well known. This is important. Theres a clear inconsistency.
Jenk: As I've said, when I have the benefit of using reference material, I'll have better recollection.
COPA: I'd suggest to you, you are confused based on what you now know.
Jenk: I don't accept that.
COPA: You were asked if you were personal or professional. You said that across job roles, the relationship was largely about work. You were asked if Craig showed you a white paper about blockchain. You said no. You remembered a meeting where he said he might get something in the post. Your Granath evidence is better than this evidence here?
Jenk: He didn't send me anything in the post. I didn't say he didn't show me anything. Can you play what I said?
COPA: He didn't send you the white paper?
Jenk: No.
COPA: that's all we want to clarify.
COPA: You also discussed when you first heard of bitcoin. You'll see a question asking if you were still in contact with him when he was outed in 2015, but you heard from the news. He never told you he was Satoshi.
Jenk: Yes
COPA: You said you had to reflect and replayed conversations where you say bitcoin evolve as a concept over many years, but it was feasible given your interactions with him. There's a frank admission from you where you say it's feasible. Are you aware that other individuals are possible candidates like Hal, Szabo, Back, Ulbricht? You haven't looked into the other individuals and ruled them out?
Jenk: No, just recounting what I've been asked to do. I have no interest in who else, but I think it stacks up that it would be Craig.
COPA: So you have the prism of hindsight.
Jenk: Getting to know him over the years, he's a very unique individual. He's very shy of publicity and his work. But I've also seen him very gregorious and passionate in his work. It's no suprise he'd use a pseudonym.
COPA: But you weren't in the room, as it were.
Jenk: No I wasn't.
COPA: You discussed egold, currencies in 2005 when you were working. And grid computing because you were working on it. All of these topics are based on things YOU were working on. This reflects your career. Not him. You're not secretly Satoshi Nakamoto.
Jenk [Long Pause]. No.
COPA: Why the pause?
Jenk: For effect.
COPA: Whew. That would have been a surprise.
Grab: Your memory has been heavily criticized here for not being very good. Here's concepts discussed in 2008-9 about banking being distributed across many nodes. Your memory is poor. What do you say to that?
Jenk: It's not better or worse than anyone else's, but in the previous case, I was asked to scour through my old messages, so I discovered I have an enormous amount of data that I re-read. So essentially, these 20 year memories are about 18 months old now.
Grab: Here you were asked about Norwegian proceedings, question was whether you received a white paper. but maybe he showed you one.
Jenk: I do remember seeing the napkin drawing and at a subsequent meeting I was shown something called "timecoin" white paper. I wasn't given it. Shown it. 2009 or 10.
Grab: Where were you?
Jenk: one of the many cafes we attended. To run through the stuff he was working on.
Grab: Do you recollect it looking like this doc?
Jenk: Yes, as i recall
Grab: Anything else you recall?
Jenk: the key word was "time" and the drawings were a time-server as a critical part of the solution. Basically serial incrememtal and timestamps and hashing. the hash version would be less prone to tamper. I recall the convo about time server in time coin. It was esoteric, but I was able to relate back to it years later.
COPA: I'd like to follow up. How many times do you mention Timecoin in your witness statement or Granath evidence?
Jenk: None
COPA: I noticed you looked down. Do you have paper?
Jenk: I do. I wrote down timecoin, ebay, paypal...
COPA: Who told you you need to be clear on that?
Jenk: Myself
COPA: Read it
Jenk: [showing the paper]
COPA: You wrote Timecoin before evidence started
Jenk: Yes.
COPA: Who told you to write it?
Jenk: Nobody
COPA: Where did the recollection come from?
Jenk: When I was preparing for this conversation. I knew there would be referrence to bitcoin and stuff, so I noted this.
COPA: did you see this in coverage of this case?
Jenk: I don't know if it was mentioned in this case.
COPA: Did Wright tell you to mention Timecoin?
Jenk: No
COPA: We suggest you were prepared for this and told to slip it in.
Jenk: No. these were notes taken during our conversation.
COPA: You said it was prepared before. What is the truth?
Jenk: The items here were written just before this conversation. I never received anything in regards to bitcoin, but timecoin was a phrase that I recalled amid this conversation. The ebay and paypal notes I wrote because there was some ambiguity in my witness statement, so I wanted to clarify.
COPA: We;ve been watching you the whole time. You didn't appear to write during the conversation. When did you write it?
Jenk: I wrote these things during the course of this interaction.
COPA: I suggest that is a lie and someone told you to get it out.
Jenk: I was writing when under oath. Here's my pen and paper. And I was making notes as we were speaking.
COPA: You first remembered timecoin in the course of my questions?
Jenk: Yes.
COPA: I suggest that's not true.
Mellor: thanks for your evidence.
Jenk: thank you
Mellor: Back at 10 past 2.
Jenk: It's not better or worse than anyone else's, but in the previous case, I was asked to scour through my old messages, so I discovered I have an enormous amount of data that I re-read. So essentially, these 20 year memories are about 18 months old now.
Grab: Here you were asked about Norwegian proceedings, question was whether you received a white paper. but maybe he showed you one.
Jenk: I do remember seeing the napkin drawing and at a subsequent meeting I was shown something called "timecoin" white paper. I wasn't given it. Shown it. 2009 or 10.
Grab: Where were you?
Jenk: one of the many cafes we attended. To run through the stuff he was working on.
Grab: Do you recollect it looking like this doc?
Jenk: Yes, as i recall
Grab: Anything else you recall?
Jenk: the key word was "time" and the drawings were a time-server as a critical part of the solution. Basically serial incrememtal and timestamps and hashing. the hash version would be less prone to tamper. I recall the convo about time server in time coin. It was esoteric, but I was able to relate back to it years later.
COPA: I'd like to follow up. How many times do you mention Timecoin in your witness statement or Granath evidence?
Jenk: None
COPA: I noticed you looked down. Do you have paper?
Jenk: I do. I wrote down timecoin, ebay, paypal...
COPA: Who told you you need to be clear on that?
Jenk: Myself
COPA: Read it
Jenk: [showing the paper]
COPA: You wrote Timecoin before evidence started
Jenk: Yes.
COPA: Who told you to write it?
Jenk: Nobody
COPA: Where did the recollection come from?
Jenk: When I was preparing for this conversation. I knew there would be referrence to bitcoin and stuff, so I noted this.
COPA: did you see this in coverage of this case?
Jenk: I don't know if it was mentioned in this case.
COPA: Did Wright tell you to mention Timecoin?
Jenk: No
COPA: We suggest you were prepared for this and told to slip it in.
Jenk: No. these were notes taken during our conversation.
COPA: You said it was prepared before. What is the truth?
Jenk: The items here were written just before this conversation. I never received anything in regards to bitcoin, but timecoin was a phrase that I recalled amid this conversation. The ebay and paypal notes I wrote because there was some ambiguity in my witness statement, so I wanted to clarify.
COPA: We;ve been watching you the whole time. You didn't appear to write during the conversation. When did you write it?
Jenk: I wrote these things during the course of this interaction.
COPA: I suggest that is a lie and someone told you to get it out.
Jenk: I was writing when under oath. Here's my pen and paper. And I was making notes as we were speaking.
COPA: You first remembered timecoin in the course of my questions?
Jenk: Yes.
COPA: I suggest that's not true.
Mellor: thanks for your evidence.
Jenk: thank you
Mellor: Back at 10 past 2.
BACK
Mellor: Craig sent doc to solicitors in September 2023 which they couldn't open because it was encrypted. It was sent by Mayaka. Have experts been able to analyze that file?
Grabiner: Not yet
Hough: Agreed
[Shoab Yusuf swearing by Allah]
Grab: You see your witness statement?
Yus: Yes
Grab: Contents are true?
Yus: Yes
COPA: Have you watched any evidence?
Yus: No
COPA: Have been following it anywhere?
Yus: No
COPA: He was a fellow student, lecturer and mentor from Charles Sturt?
Yus: And a dear friend, yes.
COPA: Looking at your statement, you have discussed many topics on tech and non-tech.
Yus: Yes
COPA: You both worked in cybersec, but also talked politics and religion?
Yus: Yes
COPA: Can you discuss what politics?
Yus: Not from 15 years ago
COPA: How about religious discussions from 2006-2009?
Yus: I am a practicing Muslim, and he has read holy Koran and many other books, and it was fascinating to here his views on religion.
COPA: 2006-10 you had futuristic discussions including digital currency? You realize digital currency has been around a long time?
Yus: Not in those terms.
COPA: How so?
YUS: Everything from credit cards to other things.
COPA: You aware of Chaumian digital cash?
Yus: No
COPA: Egold?
Yus: Yes
COPA: Visa and Mastercard are still around today?
Yus: Yes
COPA: You discussed distributed networks?
Yus: YEs
COPA: It's a common thing in cybersec?
Yus: At that time, not very common, no.
COPA: But you discussed due to cybersec?
Yus: Yes, CSW is strong in cybersec and we would talk about the future of cybersec often.
COPA: Now, when you went into business with Wright. That was 2011.
Yus: Yes
COPA: Strassen and changed to C01N?
Yus: Yes
COPA: In July 2011? Actually, have you given evidence before? In Granath? You said you were only in this company for 10 months?
Yus: I don't remember exactly, but about that much. We established the company together, and I ran it for 10 months, and I moved to Malaysia and Craig continued with Strassen and renamed it to C01N.
COPA: Here's your oath in Granath. You were telling the truth?
Yus: Yes
COPA: You said you decided to launch a business. but you parted in ten months, though the business went on.
Yus: I don't know the exact time frame.
COPA: It started in July 2011. Left in May 2012?
Yus: I don't remember exact months. The ideas were before the corporate launch. Business plan and such.
COPA: Did you depart ten months from incorporation or ten months from when you started working on stuff?
Yus: I think it was ten months from the launch of the company.
COPA: So when did you go to Malaysia?
Yus: 2013
COPA: From your Granath evidence, you say he wanted to give you an update in 2012 and you came back to Sydney to visit. You were in Malaysia in 2012?
Yus: If I recall, I left Strassen to go to Queensland and then Malaysia. Then I started new job in 2013
COPA: In Granath, you left in 2011.
Yus: I'm not sure what you're referring to. In 2011-12, I left the company. It was still running. Then Queensland and then Malaysia. It was 2011-12 or something.
COPA: It's important because of when you say things happened.
Yus: Please tell me exactly what you're trying to achieve by my move to Malaysia. I am struggling to understand.
COPA: I'm going to tell you where I'm going in my cross exam. Do you accept it would be easy to check?
Yus: Yes. But I did not brush up.
COPA: You didn't think to check? Or were you asked?
Yus: No
COPA: No documents in your statement?
Yus: I don't think so
COPA: All we have is your recollection?
Yus: Correct
COPA: You first found out CSW was Satoshi from the news in 2015?
Yus: Yes
COPA: did you discuss it since then?
Yus: No
COPA: Not at all?
Yus: No
COPA: So your mentor created bitcoin, and you never spoke about it?
Yus: No. As I said, he's my friend. I didn't show any interest in whether he is Satoshi.
COPA: It's incredible thing to say that you, in tech, would not once talked about it.
Yus: That's how our friendship is.
COPA: Were you involved with C01N in Malaysia?
Yus: I was a shareholder, but not involved in affairs.
COPA: When registered, it was just you two. When you moved to Malaysia, Wright ran it?
Yus: Yes
COPA: Here on this 2016 ATO doc, it says the paper explains the ATO's reasons for C01N decision. You can see the tax shortfall for that year just shy of 5 million dollars?
Yus: Yes
COPA: You had 500 shares here and appointed director? Also Ms Nguyen appointed later.
Yus: Yes
COPA: You ceased to be a director in 2014, but the footnote shows an extract and the ASIC shows March 2014, but the Register shows you as a taxpayer. Which is it?
Yus: When I took the role in Malaysia, I wasn't involved anymore, so Craig provided me with updates, and I was impressed with his running the company, but in my work, I had to focus and was living with my parents and wife there. I didn't have reasons to come back, so I resigned in 2013 or 14.
COPA: So you can't say?
Yus: I don't know the exact date.
COPA: If your directorship ended in MArch 2014, you were a director throughout that period.
Yus: I don't remember exactly.
COPA: You can see bitcoin addresses in this section and the taxpayer was C01N, then on page 5 we see the introduction that an audit happened to see about tax offsets in June 2013. During this time, you were a director?
Yus: Perhaps.
Mellor: Craig sent doc to solicitors in September 2023 which they couldn't open because it was encrypted. It was sent by Mayaka. Have experts been able to analyze that file?
Grabiner: Not yet
Hough: Agreed
[Shoab Yusuf swearing by Allah]
Grab: You see your witness statement?
Yus: Yes
Grab: Contents are true?
Yus: Yes
COPA: Have you watched any evidence?
Yus: No
COPA: Have been following it anywhere?
Yus: No
COPA: He was a fellow student, lecturer and mentor from Charles Sturt?
Yus: And a dear friend, yes.
COPA: Looking at your statement, you have discussed many topics on tech and non-tech.
Yus: Yes
COPA: You both worked in cybersec, but also talked politics and religion?
Yus: Yes
COPA: Can you discuss what politics?
Yus: Not from 15 years ago
COPA: How about religious discussions from 2006-2009?
Yus: I am a practicing Muslim, and he has read holy Koran and many other books, and it was fascinating to here his views on religion.
COPA: 2006-10 you had futuristic discussions including digital currency? You realize digital currency has been around a long time?
Yus: Not in those terms.
COPA: How so?
YUS: Everything from credit cards to other things.
COPA: You aware of Chaumian digital cash?
Yus: No
COPA: Egold?
Yus: Yes
COPA: Visa and Mastercard are still around today?
Yus: Yes
COPA: You discussed distributed networks?
Yus: YEs
COPA: It's a common thing in cybersec?
Yus: At that time, not very common, no.
COPA: But you discussed due to cybersec?
Yus: Yes, CSW is strong in cybersec and we would talk about the future of cybersec often.
COPA: Now, when you went into business with Wright. That was 2011.
Yus: Yes
COPA: Strassen and changed to C01N?
Yus: Yes
COPA: In July 2011? Actually, have you given evidence before? In Granath? You said you were only in this company for 10 months?
Yus: I don't remember exactly, but about that much. We established the company together, and I ran it for 10 months, and I moved to Malaysia and Craig continued with Strassen and renamed it to C01N.
COPA: Here's your oath in Granath. You were telling the truth?
Yus: Yes
COPA: You said you decided to launch a business. but you parted in ten months, though the business went on.
Yus: I don't know the exact time frame.
COPA: It started in July 2011. Left in May 2012?
Yus: I don't remember exact months. The ideas were before the corporate launch. Business plan and such.
COPA: Did you depart ten months from incorporation or ten months from when you started working on stuff?
Yus: I think it was ten months from the launch of the company.
COPA: So when did you go to Malaysia?
Yus: 2013
COPA: From your Granath evidence, you say he wanted to give you an update in 2012 and you came back to Sydney to visit. You were in Malaysia in 2012?
Yus: If I recall, I left Strassen to go to Queensland and then Malaysia. Then I started new job in 2013
COPA: In Granath, you left in 2011.
Yus: I'm not sure what you're referring to. In 2011-12, I left the company. It was still running. Then Queensland and then Malaysia. It was 2011-12 or something.
COPA: It's important because of when you say things happened.
Yus: Please tell me exactly what you're trying to achieve by my move to Malaysia. I am struggling to understand.
COPA: I'm going to tell you where I'm going in my cross exam. Do you accept it would be easy to check?
Yus: Yes. But I did not brush up.
COPA: You didn't think to check? Or were you asked?
Yus: No
COPA: No documents in your statement?
Yus: I don't think so
COPA: All we have is your recollection?
Yus: Correct
COPA: You first found out CSW was Satoshi from the news in 2015?
Yus: Yes
COPA: did you discuss it since then?
Yus: No
COPA: Not at all?
Yus: No
COPA: So your mentor created bitcoin, and you never spoke about it?
Yus: No. As I said, he's my friend. I didn't show any interest in whether he is Satoshi.
COPA: It's incredible thing to say that you, in tech, would not once talked about it.
Yus: That's how our friendship is.
COPA: Were you involved with C01N in Malaysia?
Yus: I was a shareholder, but not involved in affairs.
COPA: When registered, it was just you two. When you moved to Malaysia, Wright ran it?
Yus: Yes
COPA: Here on this 2016 ATO doc, it says the paper explains the ATO's reasons for C01N decision. You can see the tax shortfall for that year just shy of 5 million dollars?
Yus: Yes
COPA: You had 500 shares here and appointed director? Also Ms Nguyen appointed later.
Yus: Yes
COPA: You ceased to be a director in 2014, but the footnote shows an extract and the ASIC shows March 2014, but the Register shows you as a taxpayer. Which is it?
Yus: When I took the role in Malaysia, I wasn't involved anymore, so Craig provided me with updates, and I was impressed with his running the company, but in my work, I had to focus and was living with my parents and wife there. I didn't have reasons to come back, so I resigned in 2013 or 14.
COPA: So you can't say?
Yus: I don't know the exact date.
COPA: If your directorship ended in MArch 2014, you were a director throughout that period.
Yus: I don't remember exactly.
COPA: You can see bitcoin addresses in this section and the taxpayer was C01N, then on page 5 we see the introduction that an audit happened to see about tax offsets in June 2013. During this time, you were a director?
Yus: Perhaps.
COPA: You were.
Yus: Ok
COPA: You're aware of your fiduciary duty of a director?
Yus: Yes.
COPA: There's something in R&D section here. The project is a software library for prototype financial software in bitcoin. This is R&D happening when you were a director.
Yus: Yes
COPA: You weren't aware of this project?
Yus: No
COPA: The 3 core activities were scriptable money, distributed bitcoin contract, btc agents, tx signing. You don't know this project?
Yus: I remember when he explained to me in the update that he was working on bitcoin project including a wallet and R&D, but not these specifics.
COPA: These things were taken from the internet without acknowledgment. You aware of that?
Yus: No
COPA: Who would be?
Yus: Craig.
COPA: They found no core R&D activity. Are you aware of that finding?
Yus: No
COPA: Tax offset just over 2 million. You see 5m notional deductions and an offset of 2m dollars. You were a director. Were you aware of nearly 5m dollars of deductions?
Yus: No
COPA: Or R&D tax offsets?
Yus: No
COPA: So what did you do for ten months in this company?
Yus: To leverage Craig's research to develop a security system distributed in the cloud. Cybersec, monitoring, pentesting... And also to develop products for businesses to monitor directly for security.
COPA: So, a cybersecurity business?
Yus: Phase 1, yes.
COPA: There's 2 deductions, but they're not the only ones. there's a deduction for over 2m for materials and assistance from David Rees. Do you know this? or his name?
Yus: No
COPA: This is a doc signed by Craig and Dave Kleiman as a statement of work. Were you involved in this work? or do you know about it.
Yus: No
COPA: This looks like a tender document obtained from the internet. Who would have done that?
Yus: No
COPA: Could it have been Wright?
Yus: He had a lot of people supporting him
COPA: How many employees were there?
Yus: When I left, there weren't many, but he had a few businesses, so I left because he wasn't able to work on our ideas closely. He was always busy with other companies. But I needed more work, so I parted ways. We had friends in the company too, but when I came back from Malaysia, he showed me the office, and he had many employees. It looked like maybe 40 people.
COPA: Electronic signature looks weird with different fonts, footer, etc... You have no knowledge of this statement of work?
Yus: Correct
COPA: Taxpayer desire is supported by board meeting notes between you, Wright and Watts from June 2012. You're on board minute meetings.
Yus: I don't recall the meeting.
COPA: 5June unsigned. No recollection?
Yus: No
COPA: Are they genuine?
Yus: I don't know. Haven't seen them.
COPA: Strassen was the company and the supercomputer was C01N, and it was in the top 500 list of supercomputers. Did you know about the supercomputer?
Yus: Dr Craig shared to me the news about the supercomputer.
COPA: You were the director of a company and didn't know about the supercomputer?
Yus: No
COPA: Was it a sham?
Yus: Why would you say that?
COPA: I'm just asking if it was real or a sham
Yus: I didn't see it, but I can't say whether it was a sham.
Yus: Ok
COPA: You're aware of your fiduciary duty of a director?
Yus: Yes.
COPA: There's something in R&D section here. The project is a software library for prototype financial software in bitcoin. This is R&D happening when you were a director.
Yus: Yes
COPA: You weren't aware of this project?
Yus: No
COPA: The 3 core activities were scriptable money, distributed bitcoin contract, btc agents, tx signing. You don't know this project?
Yus: I remember when he explained to me in the update that he was working on bitcoin project including a wallet and R&D, but not these specifics.
COPA: These things were taken from the internet without acknowledgment. You aware of that?
Yus: No
COPA: Who would be?
Yus: Craig.
COPA: They found no core R&D activity. Are you aware of that finding?
Yus: No
COPA: Tax offset just over 2 million. You see 5m notional deductions and an offset of 2m dollars. You were a director. Were you aware of nearly 5m dollars of deductions?
Yus: No
COPA: Or R&D tax offsets?
Yus: No
COPA: So what did you do for ten months in this company?
Yus: To leverage Craig's research to develop a security system distributed in the cloud. Cybersec, monitoring, pentesting... And also to develop products for businesses to monitor directly for security.
COPA: So, a cybersecurity business?
Yus: Phase 1, yes.
COPA: There's 2 deductions, but they're not the only ones. there's a deduction for over 2m for materials and assistance from David Rees. Do you know this? or his name?
Yus: No
COPA: This is a doc signed by Craig and Dave Kleiman as a statement of work. Were you involved in this work? or do you know about it.
Yus: No
COPA: This looks like a tender document obtained from the internet. Who would have done that?
Yus: No
COPA: Could it have been Wright?
Yus: He had a lot of people supporting him
COPA: How many employees were there?
Yus: When I left, there weren't many, but he had a few businesses, so I left because he wasn't able to work on our ideas closely. He was always busy with other companies. But I needed more work, so I parted ways. We had friends in the company too, but when I came back from Malaysia, he showed me the office, and he had many employees. It looked like maybe 40 people.
COPA: Electronic signature looks weird with different fonts, footer, etc... You have no knowledge of this statement of work?
Yus: Correct
COPA: Taxpayer desire is supported by board meeting notes between you, Wright and Watts from June 2012. You're on board minute meetings.
Yus: I don't recall the meeting.
COPA: 5June unsigned. No recollection?
Yus: No
COPA: Are they genuine?
Yus: I don't know. Haven't seen them.
COPA: Strassen was the company and the supercomputer was C01N, and it was in the top 500 list of supercomputers. Did you know about the supercomputer?
Yus: Dr Craig shared to me the news about the supercomputer.
COPA: You were the director of a company and didn't know about the supercomputer?
Yus: No
COPA: Was it a sham?
Yus: Why would you say that?
COPA: I'm just asking if it was real or a sham
Yus: I didn't see it, but I can't say whether it was a sham.
COPA: Are you aware of Tulip Trust?
Yus: Yes
COPA: What do you know?
Yus: He mentioned it in the structure of the company.
COPA: Wright says he created keys in a way which weren't available at the time. Were you involved?
Yus: No
COPA: You see this recording showing that there was a site visit to see the C01N supercomputer?
Yus: Yes
COPA: There's no documents
Yus: I am here to tell you what happened.
COPA: So you weren't aware of the supercomputer?
Yus: Not directly.
COPA: ATO emails say the taxpayer provided a series of emails between the agents of ATO and the directors of the company. For the top of those emails, that may be after a time when you were a director. What do you know about this email from April 2013?
Yus: I'm unaware.
COPA: Were you receiving director emails then?
Yus: Dpeends on the address
COPA: You haven't seen this?
Yus: I have gotten email from ATO
COPA: Were you asked to check if you received?
Yus: I don't think so
COPA: Is this email real?
Yus: Which one?
COPA: April 2013
Yus: No
COPA: Are you aware of anything going on in C01N in this tax year?
Yus: No
COPA: They said this looks like a sham. It appears to be a disguise for some other transaction. Were you aware of that finding?
Yus: No
COPA: Might be a good time for a break
Mellor: Are we almost done?
COPA: More than half way.
Mello: Lol oh good...
5 Minute Break
Yus: Yes
COPA: What do you know?
Yus: He mentioned it in the structure of the company.
COPA: Wright says he created keys in a way which weren't available at the time. Were you involved?
Yus: No
COPA: You see this recording showing that there was a site visit to see the C01N supercomputer?
Yus: Yes
COPA: There's no documents
Yus: I am here to tell you what happened.
COPA: So you weren't aware of the supercomputer?
Yus: Not directly.
COPA: ATO emails say the taxpayer provided a series of emails between the agents of ATO and the directors of the company. For the top of those emails, that may be after a time when you were a director. What do you know about this email from April 2013?
Yus: I'm unaware.
COPA: Were you receiving director emails then?
Yus: Dpeends on the address
COPA: You haven't seen this?
Yus: I have gotten email from ATO
COPA: Were you asked to check if you received?
Yus: I don't think so
COPA: Is this email real?
Yus: Which one?
COPA: April 2013
Yus: No
COPA: Are you aware of anything going on in C01N in this tax year?
Yus: No
COPA: They said this looks like a sham. It appears to be a disguise for some other transaction. Were you aware of that finding?
Yus: No
COPA: Might be a good time for a break
Mellor: Are we almost done?
COPA: More than half way.
Mello: Lol oh good...
5 Minute Break
COPA: I won't drag you through ATO the whole time. But one more. You agree this is a big tax penalty?
Yus: Yes.
COPA: When you left C01N, it was in financial trouble from 2014 onwards. Were you paid for the work you did?
Yus: No
COPA: Paid for any work for C01N?
Yus: No
COPA: Did you ever invoice C01N?
Yus: To Strassen, yes. We did one project and got paid.
COPA: How big?
Yus: Not big. Maybe $90,000
COPA: When you left C01N, were you bought out?
Yus: No. I had an agreement of certain value that Craig will purchase my shares, but I was not paid.
COPA: How much was it?
Yus: Maybe $300k
COPA: There's no mention of payment in your evidence.
Yus: No. I wasn't paid
COPA: Doc says there were no employees or expenses. But Wright and Shoab would be owed.
Yus: I see that
COPA: It says You guys were in regular contact and expecting to be paid for your roles.
Yus: I don't remember.
COPA: There was a buyout in the EITC agreement. Were you aware of the financial difficulties?
Yus: No
COPA: Craig wanted to buy out former directors to take your shares so there wasn't any IP claim after. He says removing you amicably now means your can't come back for a large share later. He didn't want to have a former founder come back later. Were you aware this is how he wanted to buy you out?
Yus: No
COPA: Are you surprised he wanted to buy you out in this way?
Yus: No
COPA: And you were paid?
Yus: No
COPA: So you just walked away?
Yus: Yes, we had an agreement, and I don't remember what, and I walked.
Yus: Yes.
COPA: When you left C01N, it was in financial trouble from 2014 onwards. Were you paid for the work you did?
Yus: No
COPA: Paid for any work for C01N?
Yus: No
COPA: Did you ever invoice C01N?
Yus: To Strassen, yes. We did one project and got paid.
COPA: How big?
Yus: Not big. Maybe $90,000
COPA: When you left C01N, were you bought out?
Yus: No. I had an agreement of certain value that Craig will purchase my shares, but I was not paid.
COPA: How much was it?
Yus: Maybe $300k
COPA: There's no mention of payment in your evidence.
Yus: No. I wasn't paid
COPA: Doc says there were no employees or expenses. But Wright and Shoab would be owed.
Yus: I see that
COPA: It says You guys were in regular contact and expecting to be paid for your roles.
Yus: I don't remember.
COPA: There was a buyout in the EITC agreement. Were you aware of the financial difficulties?
Yus: No
COPA: Craig wanted to buy out former directors to take your shares so there wasn't any IP claim after. He says removing you amicably now means your can't come back for a large share later. He didn't want to have a former founder come back later. Were you aware this is how he wanted to buy you out?
Yus: No
COPA: Are you surprised he wanted to buy you out in this way?
Yus: No
COPA: And you were paid?
Yus: No
COPA: So you just walked away?
Yus: Yes, we had an agreement, and I don't remember what, and I walked.
COPA: You can see these conversations with accounting firm about the use of supercomputer. Including Wright, Shoab Yusuf, Watts, etc... He's telling Mr Aiken that you were involved. But you said you had no involvement? Which is true?
Yus: I'm not sure of the sequence with the supercomputer. I was involved in the initial build out of Strassen for cybersec managed services based on distributed network, so he might be mentioning my involvement in that establishment. But not in the supercomputer.
COPA: You said you didn't know of super computer
Yus: I knew OF it, but not involved IN it.
COPA: Talk about supercomputing, etc... When you described the business, it doesn't sound the same to me. Is it a supercomputer company of a cybersecurity company?
Yus: Looks different.
COPA: Looks like you were charging for work on a supercomputer in 2014 according to this.
Yus: No
COPA: Wright said you were. Is he not telling the truth?
Yus: I can't comment
COPA: It said you moved in the 2013-14 tax year. You worked for Strassen in 2012-13 year. You moved to Malaysia before July 2013.
Yus: I don't remember exact dates.
COPA: Your LinkedIn profile says you were there in 2013
Yus: Ok.
COPA: Do you debate what's on your LinkedIn?
Yus: No
COPA: Wright would know?
Yus: Yes
COPA: So he must have known he wasn't telling the truth on the timing?
Yus: I'm not sure
COPA: Your job in Malaysia was fulltime?
Yus: Yes
COPA: Wright says $300k was from the previous year and remains outstanding and unpaid. there's an agreement with Shoab but not formalized. Is that right?
Yus: I mentioned we had an agreement for Craig to buy my shares
COPA: did he pay you?
Yus: No
COPA: Aiken asks if Craig can submit evidence about the work. He says it's an informal agreement to date and the work was also informal to date. Why are you invoicing the company for shares? Were you invoicing for work to C01N?
Yus: I didn't invoice C01N
COPA: Why did Wright tell Mrs Aiken says there was $300k of work?
Yus: IDK
COPA: This would be referring a quarter million aussie dollars, and you didn't invoice for it?
Yus: I agreed to sell shares, but I didn't invoice for work at that time. May I ask how much more time you need. I have an appointment.
COPA: I don't want you any more than I need you. Trust me.
COPA: Was this all a sham for Dr. Wright?
Yus: I can't comment on his intentions.
COPA: I'm asking if you were involved or ever asked to be paid.
Yus: No
COPA: Shows the debt incurred for this work or the debt won't be settled by share equity. Our work led to nowhere, but we did work, etc... You couldn't have had an invoice for this amount for the work you had done.
Yus: I hadn't invoiced C01N.
COPA: then how could he?
Grabiner: He can't know!
Mellor: You have done this to death, Mr Moss.
COPA: Moving on
COPA: Here's another thing. what is this one?
Yus: It's about Craig buying out my shares
COPA: Do you recognize this skype conversation with Wright?
Yus: It looks real
COPA: It says something about your services and your shares. You were asking which thing you'd be paid for. Craig says both.
Yus: I wanted to be paid for buildout of Strassen.
COPA: You said Craig COULD be Satoshi. Are you of others like Finney, Szabo, Brie, Andresen, Back, etc...? Did you research them?
Yus: No
COPA: You have only heard this from Craig?
Yus: No
Grab: Nothing to add.
Mellor: thank you, you are released.
Grab: A substantial part of that was about the credibility to Dr Wright, but it was not appropriate if I may say so
Moss: He was a director with fiduciary duty.
Grab: There was a plausible basis, but it was rather pointless. For your other question on doc 6565, it hasn't been analyzed by Placks or Lynch. He analyzed the Timecoin doc in his first report.
Hough: There's the Sherrell doc.
Grab: We're done for today. 3 witnesses tomorrow.
Gunning: I made an offer to Dr Wuille to have him called [can't hear]
Mellor: See you tomorrow!
Yus: I'm not sure of the sequence with the supercomputer. I was involved in the initial build out of Strassen for cybersec managed services based on distributed network, so he might be mentioning my involvement in that establishment. But not in the supercomputer.
COPA: You said you didn't know of super computer
Yus: I knew OF it, but not involved IN it.
COPA: Talk about supercomputing, etc... When you described the business, it doesn't sound the same to me. Is it a supercomputer company of a cybersecurity company?
Yus: Looks different.
COPA: Looks like you were charging for work on a supercomputer in 2014 according to this.
Yus: No
COPA: Wright said you were. Is he not telling the truth?
Yus: I can't comment
COPA: It said you moved in the 2013-14 tax year. You worked for Strassen in 2012-13 year. You moved to Malaysia before July 2013.
Yus: I don't remember exact dates.
COPA: Your LinkedIn profile says you were there in 2013
Yus: Ok.
COPA: Do you debate what's on your LinkedIn?
Yus: No
COPA: Wright would know?
Yus: Yes
COPA: So he must have known he wasn't telling the truth on the timing?
Yus: I'm not sure
COPA: Your job in Malaysia was fulltime?
Yus: Yes
COPA: Wright says $300k was from the previous year and remains outstanding and unpaid. there's an agreement with Shoab but not formalized. Is that right?
Yus: I mentioned we had an agreement for Craig to buy my shares
COPA: did he pay you?
Yus: No
COPA: Aiken asks if Craig can submit evidence about the work. He says it's an informal agreement to date and the work was also informal to date. Why are you invoicing the company for shares? Were you invoicing for work to C01N?
Yus: I didn't invoice C01N
COPA: Why did Wright tell Mrs Aiken says there was $300k of work?
Yus: IDK
COPA: This would be referring a quarter million aussie dollars, and you didn't invoice for it?
Yus: I agreed to sell shares, but I didn't invoice for work at that time. May I ask how much more time you need. I have an appointment.
COPA: I don't want you any more than I need you. Trust me.
COPA: Was this all a sham for Dr. Wright?
Yus: I can't comment on his intentions.
COPA: I'm asking if you were involved or ever asked to be paid.
Yus: No
COPA: Shows the debt incurred for this work or the debt won't be settled by share equity. Our work led to nowhere, but we did work, etc... You couldn't have had an invoice for this amount for the work you had done.
Yus: I hadn't invoiced C01N.
COPA: then how could he?
Grabiner: He can't know!
Mellor: You have done this to death, Mr Moss.
COPA: Moving on
COPA: Here's another thing. what is this one?
Yus: It's about Craig buying out my shares
COPA: Do you recognize this skype conversation with Wright?
Yus: It looks real
COPA: It says something about your services and your shares. You were asking which thing you'd be paid for. Craig says both.
Yus: I wanted to be paid for buildout of Strassen.
COPA: You said Craig COULD be Satoshi. Are you of others like Finney, Szabo, Brie, Andresen, Back, etc...? Did you research them?
Yus: No
COPA: You have only heard this from Craig?
Yus: No
Grab: Nothing to add.
Mellor: thank you, you are released.
Grab: A substantial part of that was about the credibility to Dr Wright, but it was not appropriate if I may say so
Moss: He was a director with fiduciary duty.
Grab: There was a plausible basis, but it was rather pointless. For your other question on doc 6565, it hasn't been analyzed by Placks or Lynch. He analyzed the Timecoin doc in his first report.
Hough: There's the Sherrell doc.
Grab: We're done for today. 3 witnesses tomorrow.
Gunning: I made an offer to Dr Wuille to have him called [can't hear]
Mellor: See you tomorrow!
@UnrollHelper
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