February 16, 2024
Crypto Open Patent Alliance v Dr Craig Steven Wright "The Satoshi Trial" Master Thread.
FRIDAY, DAY 10
PLEASE RETWEET FOR MAX CIRCULATION
Crypto Open Patent Alliance v Dr Craig Steven Wright "The Satoshi Trial" Master Thread.
FRIDAY, DAY 10
PLEASE RETWEET FOR MAX CIRCULATION
Hough: Madden's 5th report will be served Monday. Revised timetable here. @tuftythecat visible over Hough's left shoulder. [I'm not typing all that rn]
Grabner: Calling Danielle DeMorgan.
[Swearing In - no Bible]
Grab: IS your witness statement true?
DD: Yes
Hough for COPA: You refer to a blog post
DD: Yes
COPA: In your post, you say "have you ever known a kid who said they would create something that would change the world?"
DD: Yes
COPA: Then he knew from childhood, he would change the world. I thought Craig and pop were aliens of time travelers. Was Pop grandfather?
DD: Yes, he has passed away now
COPA: You say he liked Japanese culture, especially fighting? Martial arts and real weapons?
DD: [laughing] yes, yes
COPA: And Japanese superhero names
DD: Yes, full suits and full swords that he would do movements with.
COPA: You describe an instance when you encountered a fully dressed ninja person with a sword
DD: Yes
COPA: To say craig was eccentric is to say the least. He was practicing martial arts with a sword in the park?
DD: Yes
COPA: Swinging it around.
DD: Slow and directed movement. Intentional and not in close proximity to people
COPA: you were 15-16 years old?
DD: Aroudn that
COPA: Craig would be 18-19?
DD: Yes
COPA: It was a real sword he owned?
DD: Yes
COPA: You told anyone who would listen about the crazy guy in the park.
DD: Yes, you could only see his eyes in the black suit.
COPA: Then the ninja walked in at home!
DD: Yes
COPA: Craig?
DD: Yes
COPA: Eccentric, to say the least?
DD: Yes
COPA: So you weren't surprised to hear his Japanese pseudonym in the news?
DD: Right
COPA: Family property at Lisserow?
DD: I follow maps, and it was near Lisserow at the coast.
COPA: It was around 2008 based on you having your youngest child
DD: Yes, end of 2007 or beginning of 2008. My kid wasn't quite walking yet.
COPA: You saw a room full of computers then. You called it a "mad professor room"
DD: Yes, most of the house was full of computers and running chords.
COPA: Craig said he was working on something important but you said "whatever"
DD: He works on very techical stuff. When he explains, it's always over my head.
COPA: You say you later heard about Satoshi and bitcoin and Craig was involved.
DD: Yes, I remember him working with Lasseter's because they were also my customer, and I remember he was working on a digital currency at the time.
COPA: This isn't in your witness statement.
DD: I was told it was in Lasseter's witness statement.
DD: My sister and I had been going through stuff, so I made a blog post
COPA: Your first thought was totally "this would be Craig because of the Japanese names"
DD: Right
COPA: So you draw conclusion from the Japanese names?
DD: Yes
COPA: You're aware there's many possible people who could be Satoshi? Do you know to what extent they are also interested in Japanese culture?
DD: I don't look into them much.
Mellor: Thank you Ms DeMorgan
Grabner: Calling Danielle DeMorgan.
[Swearing In - no Bible]
Grab: IS your witness statement true?
DD: Yes
Hough for COPA: You refer to a blog post
DD: Yes
COPA: In your post, you say "have you ever known a kid who said they would create something that would change the world?"
DD: Yes
COPA: Then he knew from childhood, he would change the world. I thought Craig and pop were aliens of time travelers. Was Pop grandfather?
DD: Yes, he has passed away now
COPA: You say he liked Japanese culture, especially fighting? Martial arts and real weapons?
DD: [laughing] yes, yes
COPA: And Japanese superhero names
DD: Yes, full suits and full swords that he would do movements with.
COPA: You describe an instance when you encountered a fully dressed ninja person with a sword
DD: Yes
COPA: To say craig was eccentric is to say the least. He was practicing martial arts with a sword in the park?
DD: Yes
COPA: Swinging it around.
DD: Slow and directed movement. Intentional and not in close proximity to people
COPA: you were 15-16 years old?
DD: Aroudn that
COPA: Craig would be 18-19?
DD: Yes
COPA: It was a real sword he owned?
DD: Yes
COPA: You told anyone who would listen about the crazy guy in the park.
DD: Yes, you could only see his eyes in the black suit.
COPA: Then the ninja walked in at home!
DD: Yes
COPA: Craig?
DD: Yes
COPA: Eccentric, to say the least?
DD: Yes
COPA: So you weren't surprised to hear his Japanese pseudonym in the news?
DD: Right
COPA: Family property at Lisserow?
DD: I follow maps, and it was near Lisserow at the coast.
COPA: It was around 2008 based on you having your youngest child
DD: Yes, end of 2007 or beginning of 2008. My kid wasn't quite walking yet.
COPA: You saw a room full of computers then. You called it a "mad professor room"
DD: Yes, most of the house was full of computers and running chords.
COPA: Craig said he was working on something important but you said "whatever"
DD: He works on very techical stuff. When he explains, it's always over my head.
COPA: You say you later heard about Satoshi and bitcoin and Craig was involved.
DD: Yes, I remember him working with Lasseter's because they were also my customer, and I remember he was working on a digital currency at the time.
COPA: This isn't in your witness statement.
DD: I was told it was in Lasseter's witness statement.
DD: My sister and I had been going through stuff, so I made a blog post
COPA: Your first thought was totally "this would be Craig because of the Japanese names"
DD: Right
COPA: So you draw conclusion from the Japanese names?
DD: Yes
COPA: You're aware there's many possible people who could be Satoshi? Do you know to what extent they are also interested in Japanese culture?
DD: I don't look into them much.
Mellor: Thank you Ms DeMorgan
@tuftythecat Grab: Next Witness is Mark Archibald
Mellor: [on camera twice - laughing]
[taking a break to set up for next witness]
Mellor: [on camera twice - laughing]
[taking a break to set up for next witness]
Back from break
[Mark Archibald Swearing In]
Moss for COPA: Have you watched the trial so far?
Arch: Watched?
Moss: On the link?
Arch: No
COPA: Anywhere else?
Arch: No
COPA: You met Craig at Lasseter's. Not a coder, but what's your background?
Arch: IT since way back.
COPA: Craig was brought in to do IT security for Lasseter's
Arch: We were struggling to get accredited. I brought in Craig to help
COPA: 1999-2001?
Arch: Yes
[NOTE: GOOD TO SEE CRAIG'S KNOWN CV VALIDATED BY PEOPLE]
COPA: Doc between DeMorgan and Lasseter's. Did you write this?
Arch: Looks like collab between me and Craig
COPA: DeMorgan to provide weekly, monthly and yearly reports. Patch info for production firewalls, etc... This is firewall software purchased by Lasseter's?
Arch: Yes, from Sun Microsystems.
COPA: Network servers that Lasseter's had. You had these systems to deploy to DeMorgan
Arch: Correct. Craig was concentrating on checkpoint firewalls, Cisco routers which were part of the overall network we put in place, and we would modify those. We were using Deloitte to build the security system, but they kept failing the gov audits. So we brought Craig on. He was recommended to us to fix it.
COPA: Here's a weekly report from 2001. List of tools that were used. Standard sorts of things...
Arch: Yes
[Legos visible on the shelf behind Archibald!]
Arch: Craig didn't detect any issues, so a small report means a good report.
COPA: Let's see how often you were in contact. May 2005 here. He's emailing to say hi to see if you're still around. He wasn't in touch recently before?
Arch: I can understand that
COPA: Is this consistent with not being in touch that often?
Arch: Yes, we sort of lost contact a bit. We were building our in-house security division to take over what Craig built.
COPA: Here's April 2009. Talking about files... "How the hell are you doing?" " are you contracting?" Is it fair to say you weren't often in contact then either?
Arch: We had a couple of convos, but sure.
COPA: You say he worked with firewalls, router and IT security. You mention you saw the server room in Sydney where logs were stored.
Arch: Yes, he was storing them for longterm analysis. This is something we were building in hope to get the government
COPA: They were compressed for storage?
Arch: He was doing something different that he created, but the result is that they were compressed for longterm storage.
COPA: You remember the name of the design ?
Arch: No
COPA: This is from September 2004 here. You mentioned it, but explicitly refer to a letter in your evidence here. You went back to Lasseter's in 2004-5
Arch: Yes
COPA: Letter from DeMorgan. No way to stop access to gambling, PR0N, etc... It says blocking services don't work.
Arch: Yes. This is a completely different conversation to our typical encryption. It's just a chat and his opinion on the ability to block internet from Aus. The gov had banned online casinos were saying they could ban them, but they can't. They still can't.
COPA: This letter was for what?
Arch: It was so I could show to the government. Some Aus sports books were opening up online casinos and we were saying that it can't be stopped. It was an opinion piece I could reference in discussion with the gov.
[Mark Archibald Swearing In]
Moss for COPA: Have you watched the trial so far?
Arch: Watched?
Moss: On the link?
Arch: No
COPA: Anywhere else?
Arch: No
COPA: You met Craig at Lasseter's. Not a coder, but what's your background?
Arch: IT since way back.
COPA: Craig was brought in to do IT security for Lasseter's
Arch: We were struggling to get accredited. I brought in Craig to help
COPA: 1999-2001?
Arch: Yes
[NOTE: GOOD TO SEE CRAIG'S KNOWN CV VALIDATED BY PEOPLE]
COPA: Doc between DeMorgan and Lasseter's. Did you write this?
Arch: Looks like collab between me and Craig
COPA: DeMorgan to provide weekly, monthly and yearly reports. Patch info for production firewalls, etc... This is firewall software purchased by Lasseter's?
Arch: Yes, from Sun Microsystems.
COPA: Network servers that Lasseter's had. You had these systems to deploy to DeMorgan
Arch: Correct. Craig was concentrating on checkpoint firewalls, Cisco routers which were part of the overall network we put in place, and we would modify those. We were using Deloitte to build the security system, but they kept failing the gov audits. So we brought Craig on. He was recommended to us to fix it.
COPA: Here's a weekly report from 2001. List of tools that were used. Standard sorts of things...
Arch: Yes
[Legos visible on the shelf behind Archibald!]
Arch: Craig didn't detect any issues, so a small report means a good report.
COPA: Let's see how often you were in contact. May 2005 here. He's emailing to say hi to see if you're still around. He wasn't in touch recently before?
Arch: I can understand that
COPA: Is this consistent with not being in touch that often?
Arch: Yes, we sort of lost contact a bit. We were building our in-house security division to take over what Craig built.
COPA: Here's April 2009. Talking about files... "How the hell are you doing?" " are you contracting?" Is it fair to say you weren't often in contact then either?
Arch: We had a couple of convos, but sure.
COPA: You say he worked with firewalls, router and IT security. You mention you saw the server room in Sydney where logs were stored.
Arch: Yes, he was storing them for longterm analysis. This is something we were building in hope to get the government
COPA: They were compressed for storage?
Arch: He was doing something different that he created, but the result is that they were compressed for longterm storage.
COPA: You remember the name of the design ?
Arch: No
COPA: This is from September 2004 here. You mentioned it, but explicitly refer to a letter in your evidence here. You went back to Lasseter's in 2004-5
Arch: Yes
COPA: Letter from DeMorgan. No way to stop access to gambling, PR0N, etc... It says blocking services don't work.
Arch: Yes. This is a completely different conversation to our typical encryption. It's just a chat and his opinion on the ability to block internet from Aus. The gov had banned online casinos were saying they could ban them, but they can't. They still can't.
COPA: This letter was for what?
Arch: It was so I could show to the government. Some Aus sports books were opening up online casinos and we were saying that it can't be stopped. It was an opinion piece I could reference in discussion with the gov.
COPA: Going back to your statement, you say you talked digital currency with Dr Wright. You asked if he knew about digital currency, but you didn't record this in writing?
Arch: No, it was just a talk. At the time, any discussions about digital currency was a big NO NO with the government. Regulatory bodies wouldn't touch them back then, nor woudl financial regs bodies. It was pure discussion, and I bounced ideas with people from what Craig brought to me. Craig brought me to digital currency.
COPA: It wasn't cryptocurrency back then. that term is new.
Arch: Digital currency
COPA: You can't remember quotes from 20 years ago, can you? [but Satoshi would remember every checkblock function, huh?]
Arch: No, but fiat currency rails were being blocked by the Americans, so we talked about this as a solution.
COPA: Not in your witness statement?
Arch: No
COPA: You admit you are now looking back at this from the knowledge that Wright now claims to be Satoshi Nakamoto.
Arch: Eh...
COPA: You believe Craig is Satoshi based on him telling you?
Arch: No
COPA: Are you aware of Abam Back, Hal Finney, etc.?
Arch: No
COPA: You didn't investigate any of their coding abilities?
Arch: No, my belief in Craig is based on knowing him, his skills and his personality.
[STREAM HICCUP FOR ME.] [ANOTHER BREAK FOR WITNESS TIMING]
Arch: No, it was just a talk. At the time, any discussions about digital currency was a big NO NO with the government. Regulatory bodies wouldn't touch them back then, nor woudl financial regs bodies. It was pure discussion, and I bounced ideas with people from what Craig brought to me. Craig brought me to digital currency.
COPA: It wasn't cryptocurrency back then. that term is new.
Arch: Digital currency
COPA: You can't remember quotes from 20 years ago, can you? [but Satoshi would remember every checkblock function, huh?]
Arch: No, but fiat currency rails were being blocked by the Americans, so we talked about this as a solution.
COPA: Not in your witness statement?
Arch: No
COPA: You admit you are now looking back at this from the knowledge that Wright now claims to be Satoshi Nakamoto.
Arch: Eh...
COPA: You believe Craig is Satoshi based on him telling you?
Arch: No
COPA: Are you aware of Abam Back, Hal Finney, etc.?
Arch: No
COPA: You didn't investigate any of their coding abilities?
Arch: No, my belief in Craig is based on knowing him, his skills and his personality.
[STREAM HICCUP FOR ME.] [ANOTHER BREAK FOR WITNESS TIMING]
Did I miss something here? I had a hiccup for about 1 minute just before Archibold's closing responses. Did he claim to run nodes for Craig or anything spicy at the end?
BACK
[Swearing in Maryanne Elizabeth Jones. She's looking nervous.]
Grab: Your witness statement true?
MJ: Yes
Moss for COPA: Have you watched any of the case or followed?
MJ: No
COPA: What is your role at nChain?
MJ: I am external. My role is very specific. I work on the drafting of applications.
COPA: According to IPREG, you are not listed. You're not a patent attorney in the UK
MJ: No
COPA: You're not regulated by the UK?
MJ: Correct
COPA: You were working for UDL when you first met CSW:
MJ: Yes
COPA: You're listed on some nChain patents as a rep
MJ: Yes
COPA: CSW'a patents are owned by nChain, not Craig?
MJ: I think
COPA: You run a company that you incorporated in Feb 2020 and changed name to Antheos in 2022.
MJ: Yes
COPA: You used to have a LinkedIn. Where did it go?
MJ: I put it into hibernate last week
COPA: Why?
MJ: I didn't want media interest to look at my profile
COPA: Does it mention nChain?
MJ: I'm not actually sure, but probably
COPA: Why don't you have a public profile? that's strange?
MJ: I'm in a special position. I'm a scarce commodity as a software patent attorney, so I turn them away because I get too busy.
COPA: Are you a consultant for nChain?
MJ: I suppose
COPA: nChain doesn't want their star inventor to be a fraud?
MJ: I can't speak for nChain
COPA: aligned closely with BSV?
MJ: Yes
COPA: How would you describe Craig?
MJ: I work with him, but not for him. I'm also friends with him and with my other clients. I'm lucky to be able to work for who I want to work for. I get to pick who I think has cool tech. I go often for lunch, dinner, rugby, nightclubs with clientele...
COPA: Looking at your interest in bitcoin, you accept within your environment, you're interested in bitcoin, yes?
MJ: It's my job to work on the inventions. As their IP relates to bitcoin, I'm interested, but I don't sit on social media. I find it rather unpleasant.
COPA: I suggest you have some interest and motivation for Craig to be found as Satoshi.
MJ: No, it doesn't impact my life how this is decided.
COPA: You regularly appear at CoinGeek events?
MJ: I have gone, but not "regular"
COPA: How many events in the last 2 years?
MJ: Maybe 4-5.
COPA: Here you are at Future of Bitcoin event.
MJ: this was the first event Craig did after BBC interview in Arnham. I think 2017. Was it a marketing event? It wasn't an nChain event.
COPA: It is for somebody. It's not a marketing event?
MJ: Not for nChain. He was appearing to speak.
COPA: You were called their lead patent attorney
MJ: At the time, yes.
COPA: UDL wanted to promote your work?
MJ: Yes, that's standard to show appearances with clients.
COPA: Blockchain Connected event in September 2020, you are listed as an event host.
MJ: Yes
COPA: Under Technology Connect?
MJ: I'm a founder of the blockchain section there, yes.
COPA: Another founder is Jack Davies?
MJ: Yes, he's Welsh
COPA: We see you listed with Dr Wright and mentioning BSV "Satoshi Vision" and the basis of BSV being the true bitcoin being promoted.
MJ: The blurb isn't from me, but from nChain.
[Her name is Cerian Jones. Sorry]
CJ: It's not great marketing to be associated with Wright. He's very divisive!
COPA: Here's CoinGeek Live 2020. These people are associated with nChain?
CJ: Yes
COPA: This is Jimmy Win?
CJ: Yes
COPA: You're aware @RealCoinGeek promotes BSV?
CJ: Yes
COPA: People often wonder if nChain's patents are for people using only BSV? Will Shelton(sp?) seems to acknowledge. The BSV logo also used here.
CJ: Yes. I see that
COPA: [showing video that I can't hear, I think from CoinGeek event]
[Swearing in Maryanne Elizabeth Jones. She's looking nervous.]
Grab: Your witness statement true?
MJ: Yes
Moss for COPA: Have you watched any of the case or followed?
MJ: No
COPA: What is your role at nChain?
MJ: I am external. My role is very specific. I work on the drafting of applications.
COPA: According to IPREG, you are not listed. You're not a patent attorney in the UK
MJ: No
COPA: You're not regulated by the UK?
MJ: Correct
COPA: You were working for UDL when you first met CSW:
MJ: Yes
COPA: You're listed on some nChain patents as a rep
MJ: Yes
COPA: CSW'a patents are owned by nChain, not Craig?
MJ: I think
COPA: You run a company that you incorporated in Feb 2020 and changed name to Antheos in 2022.
MJ: Yes
COPA: You used to have a LinkedIn. Where did it go?
MJ: I put it into hibernate last week
COPA: Why?
MJ: I didn't want media interest to look at my profile
COPA: Does it mention nChain?
MJ: I'm not actually sure, but probably
COPA: Why don't you have a public profile? that's strange?
MJ: I'm in a special position. I'm a scarce commodity as a software patent attorney, so I turn them away because I get too busy.
COPA: Are you a consultant for nChain?
MJ: I suppose
COPA: nChain doesn't want their star inventor to be a fraud?
MJ: I can't speak for nChain
COPA: aligned closely with BSV?
MJ: Yes
COPA: How would you describe Craig?
MJ: I work with him, but not for him. I'm also friends with him and with my other clients. I'm lucky to be able to work for who I want to work for. I get to pick who I think has cool tech. I go often for lunch, dinner, rugby, nightclubs with clientele...
COPA: Looking at your interest in bitcoin, you accept within your environment, you're interested in bitcoin, yes?
MJ: It's my job to work on the inventions. As their IP relates to bitcoin, I'm interested, but I don't sit on social media. I find it rather unpleasant.
COPA: I suggest you have some interest and motivation for Craig to be found as Satoshi.
MJ: No, it doesn't impact my life how this is decided.
COPA: You regularly appear at CoinGeek events?
MJ: I have gone, but not "regular"
COPA: How many events in the last 2 years?
MJ: Maybe 4-5.
COPA: Here you are at Future of Bitcoin event.
MJ: this was the first event Craig did after BBC interview in Arnham. I think 2017. Was it a marketing event? It wasn't an nChain event.
COPA: It is for somebody. It's not a marketing event?
MJ: Not for nChain. He was appearing to speak.
COPA: You were called their lead patent attorney
MJ: At the time, yes.
COPA: UDL wanted to promote your work?
MJ: Yes, that's standard to show appearances with clients.
COPA: Blockchain Connected event in September 2020, you are listed as an event host.
MJ: Yes
COPA: Under Technology Connect?
MJ: I'm a founder of the blockchain section there, yes.
COPA: Another founder is Jack Davies?
MJ: Yes, he's Welsh
COPA: We see you listed with Dr Wright and mentioning BSV "Satoshi Vision" and the basis of BSV being the true bitcoin being promoted.
MJ: The blurb isn't from me, but from nChain.
[Her name is Cerian Jones. Sorry]
CJ: It's not great marketing to be associated with Wright. He's very divisive!
COPA: Here's CoinGeek Live 2020. These people are associated with nChain?
CJ: Yes
COPA: This is Jimmy Win?
CJ: Yes
COPA: You're aware @RealCoinGeek promotes BSV?
CJ: Yes
COPA: People often wonder if nChain's patents are for people using only BSV? Will Shelton(sp?) seems to acknowledge. The BSV logo also used here.
CJ: Yes. I see that
COPA: [showing video that I can't hear, I think from CoinGeek event]
COPA: You're referred to as "of counsel" to nChain. That's typically internal.
CJ: I was never internal. Might have been used generally.
COPA: There's nothing here to indicate you work for anyone else
CJ: When a legal rep goes to an event with a client, they don't list their other clients or correct their clients by stating you're external, etc...
COPA: You didn't ansswer my question. Do you accept it looks like you're with nChain?
CJ: Some people could misinterpret it that way, yes.
COPA: You've been involved in the invention process with nChain for a long time. Can you give an example? You said patent 42 could be used to encrypt a variety of things.
CJ: Correct
COPA: You said nChain is aligned closely with BSV... March 2021 about an acquisition. nChain's future plans... You're mentioned as very closely aligned with nChain and Wright.
CJ: Yes
COPA: Here you are at another @RealCoinGeek event in Slovenia. Bitcoin Masterclasses attracted viewers from across the world. "so much to learn from Wright about bitcoin and IPV6." Another example of your association?
Grab: Can my learned friend explain where this is going?
COPA: Just trying to establish her relationship. This is the last one.
Grab: glad to hear it's the last one!
COPA: So you're closely associated with Wright and the patents.
CJ: Yes
COPA: CSW isn't afraid of boasting about them. Claiming more than Edison and Tesla combined. which is untrue. Please answer by reference to granted patents not filed. And given your experience as a patent attorney, I'd like your pro opinion on patents. Is an EP of a single invention in 3 countries as one patent or 3 patents?
CJ: I would call one invention 1 patent. If they get accepted in 3 places, it would be 3.
COPA: So 20 places is 20 patents?
CJ: Yes, refered to as a family.
COPA: So it's easy to inflate them by number of patents rather than families? Would it more fair to characterize the innovation by the number of families?
CJ: I'm not involved in inflating numbers.
COPA: I'm not saying you are. I'm asking you the best way to measure innovation of a company
CJ: If you're talking about granted patents, you give number of patents. You just referred to me as nChain's patent attorney. I don't work for them or belong to them. I think it's misleading to refer to me as that.
COPA: I've done nothing more than what is refered to publicly.
CJ: I'm not calling out clients for what is said in media, but we're in a courtroom, and you're being incorrect.
COPA: How many granted patents were you involved in where Wright was the sole inventor?
CJ: I don't have access to those figures.
COPA: The record shows none of the ones where you were involved is Wright listed as sole inventor. There are 6 patents anywhere where he is the sole inventor. Every other patent includes at least one other person.
CJ: That is correct. Since 2018, I have been at arm's length since Will Shelton came aboard as internal counsel. I'm much MORE external since then. In the earlier days, there were researchers who were added an an internal convention. Lots of companies will add named inventors as a kudos to them.
CJ: I was never internal. Might have been used generally.
COPA: There's nothing here to indicate you work for anyone else
CJ: When a legal rep goes to an event with a client, they don't list their other clients or correct their clients by stating you're external, etc...
COPA: You didn't ansswer my question. Do you accept it looks like you're with nChain?
CJ: Some people could misinterpret it that way, yes.
COPA: You've been involved in the invention process with nChain for a long time. Can you give an example? You said patent 42 could be used to encrypt a variety of things.
CJ: Correct
COPA: You said nChain is aligned closely with BSV... March 2021 about an acquisition. nChain's future plans... You're mentioned as very closely aligned with nChain and Wright.
CJ: Yes
COPA: Here you are at another @RealCoinGeek event in Slovenia. Bitcoin Masterclasses attracted viewers from across the world. "so much to learn from Wright about bitcoin and IPV6." Another example of your association?
Grab: Can my learned friend explain where this is going?
COPA: Just trying to establish her relationship. This is the last one.
Grab: glad to hear it's the last one!
COPA: So you're closely associated with Wright and the patents.
CJ: Yes
COPA: CSW isn't afraid of boasting about them. Claiming more than Edison and Tesla combined. which is untrue. Please answer by reference to granted patents not filed. And given your experience as a patent attorney, I'd like your pro opinion on patents. Is an EP of a single invention in 3 countries as one patent or 3 patents?
CJ: I would call one invention 1 patent. If they get accepted in 3 places, it would be 3.
COPA: So 20 places is 20 patents?
CJ: Yes, refered to as a family.
COPA: So it's easy to inflate them by number of patents rather than families? Would it more fair to characterize the innovation by the number of families?
CJ: I'm not involved in inflating numbers.
COPA: I'm not saying you are. I'm asking you the best way to measure innovation of a company
CJ: If you're talking about granted patents, you give number of patents. You just referred to me as nChain's patent attorney. I don't work for them or belong to them. I think it's misleading to refer to me as that.
COPA: I've done nothing more than what is refered to publicly.
CJ: I'm not calling out clients for what is said in media, but we're in a courtroom, and you're being incorrect.
COPA: How many granted patents were you involved in where Wright was the sole inventor?
CJ: I don't have access to those figures.
COPA: The record shows none of the ones where you were involved is Wright listed as sole inventor. There are 6 patents anywhere where he is the sole inventor. Every other patent includes at least one other person.
CJ: That is correct. Since 2018, I have been at arm's length since Will Shelton came aboard as internal counsel. I'm much MORE external since then. In the earlier days, there were researchers who were added an an internal convention. Lots of companies will add named inventors as a kudos to them.
COPA: So is Wright added for Kudos?
CJ: That's not my understanding
COPA: You know there are 60 instances where CSW added later. in one case 3 years after filing.
CJ: I didn't know that.
COPA: Is over 60x unusual?
CJ: I can't speculate.
COPA: Now let's turn to witness statement. 42, 222, 32 patents were mentioned. This one patent show in your opinion that CSW was inventing small details related to the blockchain.
CJ: You're asking me about small details? He builds small building blocks.
COPA: Your evidence is that these patents demonstrate an indication that he could be Satoshi?
CJ: Thinking back to my intentions, I wanted to show things I worked on or that he's known for.
COPA: Anyone who invents anything for bitcoin has no bearing on whether he's Satoshi?
CJ: Agreed. Other people can patent things and not be Satoshi.
COPA: Do they have a bearing?
CJ: Yes, if you look at the evidence in my statement, I was showing that HIS IP and way of thinking should be tied to the Satoshi question as an indication that it chimes with someone who thinks deeply about bitcoin as it's original developer.
COPA: You haven't seen any original docs of his old papers?
CJ: No
COPA: He's not the sole inventor of these?
CJ: The named list doesn't mean he didn't solely come up with the idea.
COPA: So Wright could be named after? Do you know Stef Savanna?
CJ: Well... Yes, I see Stef
COPA: The examiner said this was novel and inventive.
CJ: Yes
COPA: The claims could be too narrow to be accepted?
CJ: It's a negotiation with the patent office, so you don't go in with a cheeky one.
COPA: What you don't mention here is that the EPO written opinion recorded that various claims aren't clear. It got a clarity objection. You don't mention that.
CJ: An omission.
COPA: As you're aware when patents are litigated, there are broader searches
Grab: What is the relevance of this? We want to know about the ID of Satoshi, not the detail of patents.
Mellor: It's in your evidence.
Grab: But it's not connected to the relevance of Satoshi.
Moss: I wholeheartedly agree! [courtroom laughs]
Mellor: Moss, keep it short.
COPA: this is particularly interesting here, but I'll be quick. This is patent 42?
CJ: Yes
COPA: You see Wright and Savanna?
CJ: Yes
CJ: That's not my understanding
COPA: You know there are 60 instances where CSW added later. in one case 3 years after filing.
CJ: I didn't know that.
COPA: Is over 60x unusual?
CJ: I can't speculate.
COPA: Now let's turn to witness statement. 42, 222, 32 patents were mentioned. This one patent show in your opinion that CSW was inventing small details related to the blockchain.
CJ: You're asking me about small details? He builds small building blocks.
COPA: Your evidence is that these patents demonstrate an indication that he could be Satoshi?
CJ: Thinking back to my intentions, I wanted to show things I worked on or that he's known for.
COPA: Anyone who invents anything for bitcoin has no bearing on whether he's Satoshi?
CJ: Agreed. Other people can patent things and not be Satoshi.
COPA: Do they have a bearing?
CJ: Yes, if you look at the evidence in my statement, I was showing that HIS IP and way of thinking should be tied to the Satoshi question as an indication that it chimes with someone who thinks deeply about bitcoin as it's original developer.
COPA: You haven't seen any original docs of his old papers?
CJ: No
COPA: He's not the sole inventor of these?
CJ: The named list doesn't mean he didn't solely come up with the idea.
COPA: So Wright could be named after? Do you know Stef Savanna?
CJ: Well... Yes, I see Stef
COPA: The examiner said this was novel and inventive.
CJ: Yes
COPA: The claims could be too narrow to be accepted?
CJ: It's a negotiation with the patent office, so you don't go in with a cheeky one.
COPA: What you don't mention here is that the EPO written opinion recorded that various claims aren't clear. It got a clarity objection. You don't mention that.
CJ: An omission.
COPA: As you're aware when patents are litigated, there are broader searches
Grab: What is the relevance of this? We want to know about the ID of Satoshi, not the detail of patents.
Mellor: It's in your evidence.
Grab: But it's not connected to the relevance of Satoshi.
Moss: I wholeheartedly agree! [courtroom laughs]
Mellor: Moss, keep it short.
COPA: this is particularly interesting here, but I'll be quick. This is patent 42?
CJ: Yes
COPA: You see Wright and Savanna?
CJ: Yes
COPA: Here's a list of patents you disclosed. [bad timestamp on the doc lol] 183 patent ideas. No owners listed. #42, there's no owner listed. We start to see owners listed here. Only one where CSW is listed. Now further down we see it's been "re-jigg'd." Email from Stefan Matthews with DeMorgan document. We see patent pre-concept phase by Craig. Going over the page, we look at the table below. It records who does what at what time. There, Wright is doing 75% but in conceptual phase, he's the 3rd more used person after Stef and someone else. So stef is doing white paper work, not Craig. Mr Savanna, not Dr. Wright doing the majority of the work. Do you accept?
CJ: I have never seen this doc. I don't know what these phases are, and I am not qualified to answer.
COPA: You agree the doc says Savanna is doing most of the work?
CJ: I don't know what this doc is from.
COPA: I could come up with the idea to teleport, but if I don't say how, it's worthless.
CJ: It has to be sufficiently technical.
COPA: There's a difference between a big picture idea and a patentable invention?
CJ: Patent attorneys file all kinds of things that aren't fleshed out. Prototypes, for example. You want as much tech information as possible, but these things aren't unusual.
COPA: You can see on 42, Stef's name is recorded as the owner of the patent. You see that?
CJ: Yes
COPA: Wright is listed fewer than Savanna. 12 for CSW and 30 for Savanna on the internal records. Savanna seems like the person inventing these things.
CJ: I haven't seen this doc before. I don't know anything about it or its context.
COPA: You have relied on 42 as an example of Crag being Satoshi, but I should you internal docs that Savanna made them. Is it possible that Savanna is the real inventor?
CJ: Possible and actual are different aren't they?
COPA: It is possible?
CJ: Lots of things are possible.
Mellor: What use are all these questions?
Moss: Well, Wright isn't the only inventor here.
Mellor: Wright wasn't challenged on any of this though? He's relying on thousands of patents.
Moss: Yes
Mellor: How much more time would this be?
Moss: ten minutes.
Mellor: Is it more of this kind of thing
Moss: No
CJ: I'd like to get to my life
Moss: There's excellent fish and chips and @twobirds that I'd like to get back to myself!
Mellor: [rolls eyes]
Moss: Is Mr Savanna...
CJ: Let me just say, we would always ask, and then file based on client orders. I am not at nChain so I don't know anything about internal policy. I work with teh inventor to file. It's narrow. It's not bigger than it is.
COPA: You're accepting that you take info at face value from nChain?
CJ: Correct. There were times where we would be put at a white board and Craig would draft it in front of us so we could write it up.
COPA: Are you aware many other people are potentially Satoshi? Hal, Adam, Nick...
CJ: I'm aware but don't know much
COPA: You don't know their abilities?
CJ: No
COPA: So you can only speculate based on what you're told?
CJ: I don't talk to craig about being Satoshi. I can only think of 2 occassions when this was spoken about. I'm only really interested in my work.
Grab: Nothing from me
Mellor: Astonishing! Ms Jones, you can go back to your life!
Gunning: What to do with Dr Wuille?
Mellor: Is there anything in CSW's responses that you want to lead Wuille on?
Gunning: No
Mellor: then I don't want to drag him into the witness box.
Gunning: He doesn't need to be dragged.
Grab: I disagree on that [sarcastic af]... [everyone laughs]
Mellor: Is it about SPV?
Gunning: We can ask about that if you like.
ALL RISE. END OF DAY EARLY!
CJ: I have never seen this doc. I don't know what these phases are, and I am not qualified to answer.
COPA: You agree the doc says Savanna is doing most of the work?
CJ: I don't know what this doc is from.
COPA: I could come up with the idea to teleport, but if I don't say how, it's worthless.
CJ: It has to be sufficiently technical.
COPA: There's a difference between a big picture idea and a patentable invention?
CJ: Patent attorneys file all kinds of things that aren't fleshed out. Prototypes, for example. You want as much tech information as possible, but these things aren't unusual.
COPA: You can see on 42, Stef's name is recorded as the owner of the patent. You see that?
CJ: Yes
COPA: Wright is listed fewer than Savanna. 12 for CSW and 30 for Savanna on the internal records. Savanna seems like the person inventing these things.
CJ: I haven't seen this doc before. I don't know anything about it or its context.
COPA: You have relied on 42 as an example of Crag being Satoshi, but I should you internal docs that Savanna made them. Is it possible that Savanna is the real inventor?
CJ: Possible and actual are different aren't they?
COPA: It is possible?
CJ: Lots of things are possible.
Mellor: What use are all these questions?
Moss: Well, Wright isn't the only inventor here.
Mellor: Wright wasn't challenged on any of this though? He's relying on thousands of patents.
Moss: Yes
Mellor: How much more time would this be?
Moss: ten minutes.
Mellor: Is it more of this kind of thing
Moss: No
CJ: I'd like to get to my life
Moss: There's excellent fish and chips and @twobirds that I'd like to get back to myself!
Mellor: [rolls eyes]
Moss: Is Mr Savanna...
CJ: Let me just say, we would always ask, and then file based on client orders. I am not at nChain so I don't know anything about internal policy. I work with teh inventor to file. It's narrow. It's not bigger than it is.
COPA: You're accepting that you take info at face value from nChain?
CJ: Correct. There were times where we would be put at a white board and Craig would draft it in front of us so we could write it up.
COPA: Are you aware many other people are potentially Satoshi? Hal, Adam, Nick...
CJ: I'm aware but don't know much
COPA: You don't know their abilities?
CJ: No
COPA: So you can only speculate based on what you're told?
CJ: I don't talk to craig about being Satoshi. I can only think of 2 occassions when this was spoken about. I'm only really interested in my work.
Grab: Nothing from me
Mellor: Astonishing! Ms Jones, you can go back to your life!
Gunning: What to do with Dr Wuille?
Mellor: Is there anything in CSW's responses that you want to lead Wuille on?
Gunning: No
Mellor: then I don't want to drag him into the witness box.
Gunning: He doesn't need to be dragged.
Grab: I disagree on that [sarcastic af]... [everyone laughs]
Mellor: Is it about SPV?
Gunning: We can ask about that if you like.
ALL RISE. END OF DAY EARLY!
@UnrollHelper
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