Thread by @kurtwuckertjr

February 19, 2024

Crypto Open Patent Alliance v Dr Craig Steven Wright "The Satoshi Trial" Master Thread.

MONDAY, DAY 11

PLEASE RETWEET FOR MAX CIRCULATION.

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GM!

HOUSEKEEPING AMONG SOLICITORS

DAVID BRIDGES SWEARING IN ON BIBLE VIA ZOOM FROM AUS.

Grab: You see your witness statement?
DB: Yes.

Grab: It's true?
DB: Yes

Hough for COPA: Can you see me?
DB: I can't actually, mate... Ah, there you are!
Mellor: That's a great "mate"

COPA: Have you watched the trial or seen any media or commentary on it?
DB: No

COPA: You work for Qdos Bank?
DB: I did for 19 years. Just changed in December.

COPA: It was a credit union?
DB: Yes

COPA: You met CSW in 2006 when he was at BDO?
DB: Yes

COPA: For IT security audit? and he found vulnerabilities?
DB: Yes, found plenty.

COPA: You have evidence in Oslo, where you said he was working on IT security, etc.. Is that a fair summary of his work?
DB: Yip

COPA: After he left BDO, you engaged him as a consultant where he worked in your offices every week or two on pentesting. Does that involve acting as a hacker and then fixing what he finds?
DB: Yep

COPA: Then advice on IT security?
DB: Yep, framework, then setting up and testing controls.

COPA: Then event logging. that included alerts if there was a change to the events.
DB: Yep.

COPA: You drew a parallel with blockchain because a record of all changes and no reversibility, good traceability?
DB: Yep

COPA: You're not saying they shared code in common?
DB: I wouldn't know, mate. I can tell you how it worked and how we used it.

COPA: He also gave you papers to read?
DB: Yep. Annoyed the hell out of me.

COPA: We ID'd 100s of things he sent to you. Does that sound right?
DB: He certainly sent me a lot of things, but I didn't read em all. and didn't understand a lot of what I read.

COPA: We haven't authenticated these, but he claims he sent this. About criminal choice theory.
DB: Can't say categorically, but it is along the lines of what he would have sent about law.

COPA: Document retention document. Very long one on record keeping and document distribution in the digital world. You recall?
DB: I can see the GIAC systems because he was trying to get me to study it. So probably.

COPA: Here's so bedtime reading to put you to sleep. Examining software security.
DB: Yeah, it's likely. It's relevant to what we were doing at the time, but I don't have those emails anymore, so I can't guarantee.

COPA: Based on our view, these are concerned with IT security, document foresnesics and legal interest. Do you agree with that?
DB: Absolutely.

COPA: You were showed an LLM proposal documents about payments, intermediaries. You said he showed this to you or something similar because he was always banging on about EU law and trade.
DB: Yes, he wanted us to invest in research with him about stuff like this.

COPA: You can't say it was this precise version?
DB: Nah, mate. Jeez. It looks right from my perspective.

COPA: While he was working as a consultant, he wanted to discuss inter-bank payment system.
DB: Yep

COPA: No docs about this idea?
DB: IDK. He may have given one at the time because I showed it to CEO and CFO.

COPA: But no documents now? Just a chat?
DB: What's the point you're trying to make?

COPA: That you don't have docs or proof of this?
DB: I recall removing intermediaries and doing quicker, more efficient payments.

COPA: So he was proposing something to add on or replace SWIFT?
DB: Yep.

COPA: It's a Belgian [like their client Wuille] messaging network for finance?
DB: Yeah, I don't know mate. That or Swiss or something.

COPA: You say it was like blockchain in some ways though? A secure ledger system
DB: Yeah, that's right.

COPA: Not specific technical features though?
DB: As in what? What specific technical?

COPA: You're not saying specific features?
DB: Yeah, mate. That's beyond me.

COPA: And you didn't take the idea forward?
DB: We liked it, and it would have been great, but effectively because we were a smaller bank, we couldn't invest because we didn't understand it. We were conservative.

COPA: For people interested in cryptocurrencies, there was a pizza bought with bitcoin. That was May 2010. Based on your evidence, Craig and you talked about it. That was the first time Craig said bitcoin to you?
DB: Yes.

COPA: You said "what the hell is bitcoin? how the hell does it work?" Everyone knows now, but it was new and on his laptop. He explained it could be transferred as a form of payment, and it was the first time we talked about bitcoin. Is that right?
DB: That's right.

COPA: BEfore that you didn't know?
DB: Yep. I have seen digital currency before, but this was quite fun to see here.

COPA: And that was the end of the conversation?
DB: Yep. He showed us how a wallet worked, and that was it.

COPA: Later, you went to Craig's house on the central coast with a Mr Bonser (sp?) near Lissarow?
DB: Somewhere around there.

COPA: You saw racks of computers you thought were servers?
DB: Yep

COPA: He didn't say what he was doing?
DB: Nah. Craig keeps to himself.

COPA: At some point in 2012-13, he put the idea of QDOS becoming a bitcoin bank.
DB: Yes, to add to our banking services. We were running EDI, so we were governed by the gov regulatory system.

COPA: That was another sketchy proposal then?
DB: We're not a bleeding edge bank, so...

COPA: Then Craig offered you a role in a bitcoin bank, but you couldn't take the risk?
DB: Yeah, I had a nice, safe, secure job and just had twins so, stick with what I know.

COPA: You didn't have info on how it would be funded or anything, right?
DB: Yeah, I just had questions. It was more of an idea, but he was quite keen.

COPA: You said it was after June 2013?
DB: Yep, based on when the twins were born.

COPA: You learned Craig was Satoshi from the news in 2015?
DB: Yep. We were blown away. There was a bit news splash and every news channel had it. We were having conversations in the board room. It was wild.

COPA: You thought it was him because of his love of Japanese culture and his conversation?
DB: Yep.

COPA: You're aware of other possible Satoshi's?
DB: Nah, I don't really follow it. I wish I bought some then, but I never did, so I don't really pay attention, Mate. I know there's the Russian fella who does the other one, but I'm not a fan boy.

COPA: No further questions.

Mellor: You're released.
Grab: Good Day, Mate. [whole court laughs]

TEN MINUTES TO SET UP FOR MAX LYNAM

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WE ARE SO BACK!

MAX LYNAM SWEARING IN.

Grab: Your sig on this? True witness statement?
Max: Yes

Hough: GM
Max: GM

COPA: Have you watched or read any of this trial or media about it?
Max: No

COPA: You say most of your contact with Craig as adults is through apps and emails?
Max: yes

COPA: Since Craig was born in 1970, your conversations since the 90's have been mostly digital?
Max: yes

COPA: You knew he worked for BDO and Lasseter's, etc.. You don't mention other jobs?
Max: I believe when I was in the military, he was doing IT for an office supply distribution company. I may have mentioned that in the statement.

COPA: Let's check your witness statement.
Max: Looks like I say it here.

COPA: Is it fair to say he did lots of jobs.
Max: White hat hacking stuff was mentioned, but I didn't know every client. He wouldn't know all of mine either.

COPA: He did a lot in IT security with lots of accreditations. The work for Lasseter's was throgh DeMorgan?
Max: I know OF the company. And others as well.

COPA: This was an IT security co?
Max: IDK all of the details of what they did. I only know what Craig told me.

COPA: Here's 2 email conversations between you 2 in 2008. We can't say whether they're authentic, but they're in CSW's disclosure. It appears to be an email from Criag from 20 May, 2008 "tooting his horn" about accomplishments. Do you remember it?
Max [taking his time reading] Yeah, I would have received something like this. He would update us every once in a while.

COPA: You see his masters in law.
Max: Ok

COPA: He refers to other accreditations too.
Max: Ok

COPA: He mentions PHD in economics and law and regulation
Max: Ok

COPA: He notes that being a lawyer, it doesn't hurt is digital forensics work. Is that consistent with Craig in that period?
Max: Yes, He's always got on-going study all the time.

COPA: He refers to various other creds.
Max: Yep

COPA: Is it fair to say his actual work was IT Security and Digital Forensics?
Max: Yep

COPA: At some point before you sold the fam farm, he asked you to run some code?
Max: Yes

COPA: You didn't want it on your system because it was running ecommerce for the farm. So it ran on the pc at your dad's house? [Max built an international flower business on the internet]
Max: Yes

COPA: So, he ran it until mid-2011?
Max: Yes.

COPA: If you look here. it asks if you performed tasks for Craig. You said in late 2008, Craig had code he wanted tested, so it was stuck on a few computers to test. It seemed like a normal thing to do. We have a quad core Xeon pc, so it was pretty good. He wanted to use the big server at the farm, but it was risky because that was the business system. You refer to that as an unknown bit of code?
Max: Yep

COPA: How long did that run? It went until the farm was wrapped up due to the GFC. It went until just before Christmas 2011.
Max: Yep

COPA: You said it was just running and testing. Didn't know what it was. When asked for your understanding, we were a tech family, so we ran stuff for each other often. Didn't know it would be worth something. Is it fair to say you weren't aware of the functions of the code?
Max: I wouldn't know precisely, but it was what Craig was working on with the cryptographic key stuff. We know it was the key auth stuff, but we didn't know other details.

COPA: Let's look at your witness statement. You said you had the computer on, and it was connecting to Craig's computer. You didn't need to do anything while it was running?
Max: It just ran.

COPA: Looked like hacking stuff and txs he was doing for Lasseter's? Ethical hacking?
Max: Yes, mostly pings back and forth just like you'd do now.

COPA: white hat or ethical hacking?
Max: Correct

COPA: You made a connection between the work you were doing which was IT security and stuff?
Max: It's all based on the same tech. What are you asking?

COPA: Was it IT vulnerability work?
Max: It was authorizations. They need to work backward and forward. That's how cryptographic programs work, and what Craig was working on

COPA: You weren't sworn to secracy about it were you?
MAX: No

COPA: Anyone could look at the code?
Max: Uhhhhh. I wouldn't have thought so, so Craig sent it to us. I don't know who else. It wasn't public.

COPA: He didn't stress that it was confidential?
Max: No

COPA: You don't describe the particulars anywhere?
Max: wasn't asked to.

COPA: You don't have a detailed view on cryptocurrencies?
Max: No, but I do have a good view of IT systems and how they relate.

COPA: You haven't retained any old comms with Craig from over the years of particulars?
Max: It would be almost impossible. The companies that we used are gone. Usernames are probably are gone. Email domains were disposed of or IRC doesn't have histories.

COPA: You had to give your evidence without any docs?
Max: Correct

COPA: He didn't share anything about identity?
Max: No

COPA: You recall a dinner with Ramona in 2013 and that you heard of bitcoin before that point?
Max: Yes

COPA: It was in the news?
Max: I'm in the tech industry.

COPA: You didn't understand you were running bitcoin earlier?
Max: Not directly, no, I guess.

COPA: This is where you were asked in Oslo. Craig asked if you had the computer still, but we threw it in the garbage and Craig said it would have been worth money. We were thinking about the old computer, but then he told us the computer was mining bitcoin at the time. We didn't know about bitcoin at the time, etc... You had no idea what mining bitcoin was before dinner then?
Max: Correct

COPA: So you didn't think you were earning rewards?
Max: Correct

COPA: You didn't have any idea craig invented bitcoin?
Max: Before the dinner, no. But there's a difference between knowing blockchain and bitcoin. I knew he was doing blockchain work, but I didn't know we were mining bitcoin. They're different.

COPA: But at the time, it was an unknown bit of code.
Max: I knew it was validating cryptographic keys. I knew it had to do with blockchain. [Hough doing the glasses and eyes stress thing again] I didn't know it was bitcoin itself, or transactions, but I was aware of validating blockchain stuff.

COPA: You didn't say this in Oslo. You didn't mention blockchain or Craig inventing it.
Max: In Oslo, I was asked specifically about the white paper, but the concept of blockchain was what we were aware of.

COPA: You don't know that the word blockchain was used when you were running the code?
Max: Correct

COPA: You already said it was unknown code related to cryptographic code and his IT work?
Max: Are you saying im creating the connection?

COPA: You're looking through the prism of hindsight.
Max: The work was around the concept of blockchain.

COPA: I'm saying you were not aware of that.
Max: Apart from the papers and ideas that were discussed?

COPA: Are you aware that at the time of the dinner, he was in disputes with the ATO about infrastructure related to bitcoin?
Max: No

COPA: Anything you might have earned while mining would have been lost?
Max: Yes. If we kept the computers, they could have been bitcoins.

COPA: Did he tell you Dave Kleiman kept records of mining at your family farm?
Max: No.

COPA: This is a supposed corporate memo for a company called Wright.Kleiman ID. We don't accept it as authentic. It says records of mining by Don, Max, Gareth are kept with Dave. You weren't aware of records of this?
Max: No.

COPA: DK kept a record of Don. You weren't aware of that?
Max: No

COPA: This is from W&K Info Defense Research... Have you seen this doc?
Max: No

COPA: Shows assets will be distributed based on the original CPU power.. Includes work done by various people including Don and Max and Gareth Williams. Did you think you'd get any company assets based on running code?
Max: No

COPA: You saw Craig ID'd as Satoshi in 2015
Max: Yes

COPA: First time you heard that name?
Max: No. I would have heard it because I worked in tech and I knew others doing bitcoin stuff. Hearing Craig mentioned as Satoshi, would have been then.

COPA: You said you first heard the name when Craig was outed.
Max: When related to Craig, yes.

COPA: You said you first heard the name Satoshi when Craig was outed. which is it?
Max: That's possibly right.

COPA: Are you aware that by 2016, his claim had been challenged?
Max: There's the person who created bitcoin. Satoshi is fairly irrelevant as a name to me.

COPA: Did you become aware that his claim to be Satoshi was disputed?
Max: I was aware they challenged him as the creator of bitcoin. But there's all sorts of rubbish in crypto.

COPA: And you're aware of the legal battles around these claims?
Max: Yes. I know there's fights about whether he created bitcoin.

COPA: Do you recognize this doc allegedly from Craig to you says he misses everyone in the family. He refers to a dispute with Peter McCormack. Do you recall that name?
Max: [taking his time to read] doesn't stand out.

COPA: Then he Craig says your memories are more vague than Don's.
Max: [reading...] This one was part of a thread. I remember the thread and catching up.

COPA: Your father apears to be recalling saying your memories might be more vague than his. Is that right?
Max: IDK. What was he asking?

COPA: I'm basing this on your father's email?
Max: It might be something I don't know. My memory isn't vague. I just might know what he's talking about.

COPA: Wright insisting that it isn't a fantasy about mining bitcoin. Is this an email you wrote about hardware and software that got "chucked out" and the old hacking days that turned into the blockchain stuff?
Max: [reading...] Yep, I recall writing that.

COPA: Was it correct?
Max: I would say so.

COPA: Those are my questions.

Grab: No further questions.
Mellor: You're released.

Grab: We could start with Stefan now, if you like.

Mellor: Let's take ten minutes.

This X thread brought to you in part by the Bezel "Refer a Friend" Program.

If you're in the market for a timepiece, read on.

As a lover of vintage and modern mechanical watches, I use Bezel for my purchasing needs for a few reasons:

Convenience: Shop thousands of the most collectable watches on the planet from all of the top brands, all in one place.

Authenticity: Everything is sent to Bezel's in-house experts for multi-point Bezel certification before it gets shipped.

Concierge: Whether you want to source a hard to find watch or need recommendations, your private client advisor.

For a limited time, the promo code KURTWUCKERTJR will save you $200 any watch sold through Bezel.

Shop Now 👉shop.getbezel.com

WE ARE BACK!

STEFAN MATTHEWS SWEARING IN

Grab: Is this your statement, signature, and is it true?
SM: Yes

Hough: Let's start with have you watched any of this trial or media?
SM: None

COPA: Are you the CEO of nChain?
SM: Yes

COPA: Are you a shareholder?
SM: My family trust is

COPA: What's value?
SM: Private co's don't have shareholder value.

COPA: nChain bought DeMorgan's IP?
SM: Yes

COPA: Here's a doc from 2016. nChain was formed as a result of acquisition of DeMorgan and a Canadian financial co called nTrust.
SM: Yes

COPA: Craig being Satoshi is prominently displayed
SM: Yes

COPA: You have worked with Calvin to at least 2011?
SM: I worked for a company that worked with Bodog until then, but Calvin wasn't operational.

COPA: When did you work with Ayre?
SM: I first met him in Manila in 2011.

COPA: Article from Switzerland global enterprise refers to Ayre Group in London investing 500m Franks in nChain.. Is that right?
SM: Depends how you define "invested." CA acquired shares that were held by someone else. It wasn't a cash deal.

COPA: Is CA a significant controller of the UK operating company?
SM: He's a significant shareholder of the holding company.

COPA: So this is inaccurate on the UK company house?
SM: He has control of the holding company, so he's listed in the operating company.

COPA: nChain quietly amassing a patent portfolio written here. It's based on primarily on Wright's work?
SM: I wouldn't agree with that.

COPA: It's mentioned here.
SM: It's not the only facet of nChain.

COPA: Since 2015, you have spent a fair amount of time promoting Craig as Satoshi?
SM: At various times, yes.

COPA: It was big in 2015 and 16?
SM: At that time, it wasn't directed by me. I did spend a lot of time dealing with conflict between Craig and Rob.

COPA: and engaging with lawyers engaged by nTrust including Ted Loveday and Zafar Ali?
SM: I only met Ted once, and I would hesitate to call that an engagement. And I met ali through CAH, but wasn't engaged.

COPA: Who paid Ali?
SM: I believe it was CAH. He was introduced as a close friend who could give advice.

COPA: You have claimed in @RealCoinGeek and elsewhere that Craig is Satoshi?
SM: Yes

COPA: You were also involved with Wright in Squire Mining?
SM: He wasn't with Squire.. Oh wait... Yes, he was in one raise for Squire.

COPA: McFarlands on behalf of devs complained about professional conduct in regards to... They say clients were instructed by nChain UK Limited as funder of litigation. Is that correct?
SM: No

COPA: Has nChain funded Craig's litigation directly or indirectly?
SM: No

COPA: Not through shares or loans?
SM: Unless you call "indirect" the receipt of salary or consulting fees.

COPA: How has it been funded?
SM: I wouldn't know. I'm not involved in that.

COPA: nChain prominently features Craig as Satoshi to improve the appeal of the company to the market?
SM: No. We weren't going to market.

COPA: Why include it?
SM: For reference, because it's true.

COPA: But nChain stands to benefit from that?
SM: Not really.

COPA: nChain's whole business is crypto. WOuld it be fair to say that it would benefit it Craig was Satoshi?
SM: We aren't crypto. We don't trade in or use crypto. It's a blockchain research company.

COPA: Would nChain benefit from Craig being found to be Satoshi?
SM: nChain's value is in products and patents. Craig's name doesn't make anything more value. Their value is in their ability to solve problems.

COPA: So no benefit to Craig being Satoshi?
SM: The value doesn't change. The tech is the value. That was created by Wright and others.

COPA: So, you don't think nChain would be improved by Wright's proof of being Satoshi?
SM: Not materially, no.

COPA: You said your family trust had $450k of BSV at the time of your witness statement. Does Ayre have similar holdings?
SM: Not sure what Ayre does.

COPA: Here's a CA tweet saying "buy slow, but the market roars today..." How do you understand this to mean?
SM: He told his banks to buy BSV slowly. what is there to understand? He has a family office that looks after his private business.

COPA: So he told his banks to buying BSV and links it to Craig's success in this litigation?
SM: You could interpret it that way, yes.

COPA: You had no idea how he felt about the financial interest in the litigation?
SM: This is the first time I'm seeing this post.

COPA: You didn't know Ayre was trading in BSV?
SM: No, I'm not involved in his personal business. Whether he instructed his people, I would have no way of knowing.

COPA: Would you accept that there's a link between the litigation and the price of BSv?
SM: You can ask him.

COPA: Would you accept the price is volatile?
SM: All digital assets are volatile.

COPA: this is a digital asset that your family trust holds. You would have a particular interest.
SM: I don't trade crypto. I acquired my BSV long ago, and I don't follow the price closely. I'm interested in the tech of nChain.

COPA: Would the price of BSV be influenced by these proceedings?
SM: I don't know.

COPA: No connection?
SM: BSV was not and is not a crypto that lives or dies on price and trading volumes. BSV is a utility token, and nChain develops on the BSV blockchain, so that's the relation. If the price of the token was very high right now, it would be detrimental to the business applications we are working on.

COPA: But it would benefit your family trust?
SM: My investment in BSV is no different to investing in equity I hold because I believe in its utility.

SM: Can I get water? You're drying me out.

COPA: You ok?
SM: I'm fine.

COPA: Here's from O'hagan Satoshi Affair. Says Wright would get 30 staff and they would work with Satoshi on IP and sell the IP for upwards of a billion dollars to Google, Uber, Swiss Banks... Package it all up and not operate it... He ascribes to you these quotes.
SM: that's about as accurate as his statements about me that were from when I wasn't even there. I don't have evidence that Google or Uber were engaged, but I didn't know Rob engaged O'Hagan at all until it was thrust on me. I wanted to write about the history of the company, and Rob pitched Andrew as a biographer, but not specifically about Satoshi. We knew it would come. We had an agreement to $200k about the companies, but when Wired and Giz happened, Rob changed the strategy quickly, but our engaged plan was not that. But I can't speak to what was in Rob's head.

COPA: You anticipate benefit to your company and yourself if Craig is found to be Satoshi.
SM: I'll say it again. I spent a lot of years of my life trying to grow nChain to focus on gov and large enterprise. If I benefit from the shareholding, it'll be because nChain was successful, not because of Craig.

COPA: When CAH was CEO and you were chairman, here's a WhatsApp conversation. Showing Wright's browsing history.
SM: I don't know what those images are. I didn't care what they were.

COPA: Here's Craig searching, with BDO drive content on screen, for stuff about how the white paper was written in. Says he was "chocked at what a retard" he was. And you said "fuck." Was with doctored?
SM: [laughing] It looks genuine, but I'm not sure.

COPA: CAH had referred that CSW would need to explain how he discovered these?
SM: That's what I was told and what I believed.

COPA: You responded. Is this accurate?
SM: I said I wasn't worried about Craig here. I was focused on nChain, which is true.

COPA: You didn't just say that.
SM: I think I did.

COPA: You expressed surprise. That's what "fuck" means, doesn't it?
SM: That's out of context. CAH is a particular style of individual. I was fed up with him. From the 22nd of Sep until I fired CAH, he was consistently harassing me, threatening me and insisting that I withdraw as a witness and making statements that he would destroy me. They'd call me at midnight with Ali and saying they'd arrive in Switzerland to make me withdraw. They told me 20-25 times that CAH would stop at nothing to destroy me if I came to this courtroom.

COPA: You seem keen to move away from this. But the plain meaning here was shock and surprise.
SM: I wanted to move on and get on with nChain.

COPA: You say "whats wrong with him?" That's Craig?
SM: Yes

COPA: So you agree he's stupid or wrong?
SM: No.

COPA: What does "what the fuck is wrong with him" even mean?
SM: It's a private chat with a guy who talks that way.

COPA: What's the other meaning of WTF?
SM: It's about writing it off and moving on

COPA: The plain meaning is agreeing he did something stupid.
SM: Not my attention.

COPA: You said you have nChain to focus on. that's not fake. Implying CSW is fake.
SM: everything from CAH was fake.

COPA: You say nChain isn't fake. Doesn't that imply Wright is?
SM: CAH is saying CSW is fake.

COPA: You imply CSW is fake. Any objective observer would say you were agreeing.
SM: they would be wrong.

[Matthews is steely af, btw]

COPA: You didn't tell him to forget this and focus on nChain. Your message indicates agreement that CSW is a fake.
SM: I was put in a position with CAH to have to fit his assertions in order to move on.

COPA: You were trying to indicate agreement to fob him off?
SM: No. It was a message betwen us two, and I wanted to move on

COPA: This was a delicate time, yes? 3 days after the mock trial.
SM: Yes, I was being bombarded with threats toward me and my family to be destroyed DESTROYED. He was screaming and smashing his hands on my desk and right in my face SCREAMING. It was a "delicate time" indeed.

COPA: So CSW did poorly in the mock trial?
SM: that was also an ambush. Craig didn't get to do hardly anything. It was designed to push me out, I think

COPA: Serious questions were being asked about nChain's connections to Wright?
SM: By who?

COPA: Ayre, for one.
SM: I'm not aware of that.

COPA: It would be crazy for you to send the signal to CAH that you were in agreement CSW was a fake if you didn't believe it?
SM: I never thought he was a fake. I never indicated that.

COPA: As an experienced businessman, you wouldn't have been so stupid to lie to CAH in this case?
SM: Please ask slower.

[hearing lots of other whispering]

COPA: that's not a message you would have wanted to give to CAH if it wasn't true?
SM: I'm still not piecing your question together.

COPA: So you would not have written this was unless CSW was a fake.
SM: Not true.

COPA: This is a lie
SM: Absoltuely not. I don't have to lie about anything. I KNOW MY EXPERIENCES with Craig. Nothing can change that.

COPA: Another tweet from CAH
SM: Lol oh, yea [sarcastically]

cOPA: have you read this?
SM: No... ah, I know this. This is the transcript of the recording he allegedly took in Spain. I don't know if it's in its entirety. He has a history of clipping things together.

COPA: did you say these things?
SM: I may have. I don't have specific recollection.

COPA: Let's listen.

[We can't hear on the stream]

COPA: Is that you?
SM: Sounds like my voice.

COPA: Was Jan 15 the original start date of the trial?
SM: Maybe. You have to remember CAH and Zafar were in Spain and telling me how uncooperative that CSW was being about prep at the time.

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WE ARE BACK

COPA: You said you couldn't place a value on the shares in nChain?
SM: not with any accuracy.

COPA: 500m deal was for shares in nChain, yes?
SM: Part of it was for shares, but not all.

COPA: How much was that worth?
SM: M'Lord, it's confidential. I will answer, but would like it to be in private.

COPA: Let's not. Someone would place a value on those shares though?
SM: Yes, Ayre had a small shareholding and then acquired more from another holder.

COPA: So a fair market value COULD BE come to?
SM: Yes.

COPA: But you don't know what it would be?
SM: My single digit percentage... I wouldn't like to disclose in open court.

COPA: even a single digit holding in nChain would a very valuable asset?
SM: Well, any asset in any company could be valuable if the company is valuable. I know you're trying to tie this into Craig.

COPA: Do you see your shares as valuable?
SM: They're in my trust, but I'm not a beneficiary of that trust.

COPA: You met Craig when you were the CIO of Centrebet for IT Security
SM: Yes

COPA: And in that era he did security?
SM: And consulting through information defense

COPA: He also discussed digital cash?
SM: On many occassions.

COPA: But Centrebet didn't engage him to produce that?
SM: Correct.

COPA: You have said you got a bitcoin white paper in 2008. You said he gave you a USB stick with it.
SM: Yes

COPA: A single file you downloaded, and gave him back his USB.
SM: Yes

COPA: You read it on the same day you got it and printed it?
SM: Yes

COPA: that' when you first heard of bitcoin?
SM: Yes

COPA: There was a placeholder for the name?
SM: Yes. It didn't say Satoshi. It could have said Craig, but I believe it had no name at all.

COPA: When you next saw him, he asked if you read it, you said you weren't interested.
SM: Correct

COPA: You must be aware of the importance of this claim to CSW's story?
SM: Yes. The white paper wasn't the only thing related ot the history of this. Over a two year period, I had countless discussions, sketches on paper and white boards about what he was working on. It was no surprise to see the white paper after seeing all the stuff over the years before.

COPA: Back to nChain memorandum. Origins of nChain Group. Mentioned Squire Mining. Wright is said to be an advisor. Not just a shareholder.
SM: Yes

COPA: Here, it explains Craig is Satoshi. So, it's a pitch to the market for your companies that he's Satoshi.
SM: It's not a pitch. It's a fact.

COPA: You refer to an email you sent to Ayre in September 2015. You remember this?
SM: Let me read

COPA: It says from Wright at Tyche about the book... "PR: I may have to have a special chapter about Stefan about how the white paper was on his desk for months. a little bit of a jab at someone who I respect, but that it's good he didn't invest in the ideas..."
SM: Yes

COPA: Ayre Responded saying "makes a better story." and loves the idea of a Stefan chapter. You said it was important that Craig won't need pushing to be Satoshi now... It doesn't strike you as unusual?
SM: Seems genuine.

COPA: The email at the end is an ask from Craig to review the white paper after being on your desk for months.
SM: It might have been weeks, but those are Craig's words.

COPA: Wright's account is different from yours. Months on your desk is different than reading immediately.
SM: He wasn't there to see it for months or to see me read it immediately.

COPA: The accounts are different though.
SM: I didn't go back to him to have a discussion about it. I read it when I printed it.

COPA: That's different than what Wright says.
SM: I don't know what Wright knew at the time.

COPA: You didn't respond to it at the time saying it was wrong.
SM: I saw no point.

COPA: But it was demonstrably wrong?
SM: It was his interpretation. Not what occuirred.

COPA: You know longer have this laptop or paper copy?
SM: No

COPA: no emails or texts from 2008-9 mentioning this?
SM: No

COPA: Or CSW talking about digital currency generally?
SM: They were in person and verbal in my office. Having said that, there were 3-4 other people working in my office with whom he also had similar discussions. they have asked not to be mentioned.

COPA: The only evidence is you and Craig's accounts?
SM: Yes

COPA: Are you aware there are different accounts on how it was provided?
SM: Tell me more about it

COPA: He said it was a hard copy and you recall it as a USB.
SM: Maybe he had a hard copy, but he handed me a USB stick.

COPA: Have you seen this?
SM: Once

COPA: Is this document given to you in 2008?
SM: No

COPA: Mentioning Craig here. O'Hagan: "An eccentric guy, Wright had given Matthews a doc by Satoshi Nakamoto..." You said it wasn't signed by Satoshi though. So the O'Hagan account is wrong?
SM: I didn't tell Andrew that the doc said Satoshi. O'Hagan is an author. I can only assume he is assuming and attributing because everyone knows it now.

COPA: So O'Hagan says he got it then from you.
SM: He said what he said, but it wasn't me who said that.

COPA: Your account now is at odds with the story you gave O'Hagan and Wright's account.
SM: Andrew isn't accurate.

COPA: Also not corroborated with any docs.
SM: And inaccurate.

COPA: And now it is part of the big reveal plan.
SM: the big reveal was a Rob plan. He was working closely with O'Hagan. I wasn't closely involved.

COPA: So you didn't have involvement?
SM: It was discussed with Wright and Ayre and Wright's lawyer from Clayton Utz...

COPA: The story of you receiving the white paper before publication is a lie.
SM: It is true.

COPA: It's a lie
SM: I had to endure this sort of harassment [almost tearing up for a second] from CAH threatening me about coming to this court. I'm going to sit here and lie. It's the absolute truth.

COPA: It's a lie that CSW had digital currency plans in 2007, isn't it?
SM: He made a submission to Centrebet in early 2009. If I had accepted, it would have been the first app built on bitcoin. Immutable logging of the timestamp server.

COPA: You said he worked with you as a security advisor.
SM: on our security advisory board.

COPA: You describe a convo in MArch 2009 about $500. "I'll give you 50,000 bitcoin" conversation. It's a very odd story to have a colleague offering you something of no value for $500, isn't it?
SM: Yes. I remember the day vividly. When he asked for the money, I reached for my checkbook. Then he mentioned bitcoin and I closed my breifcase because I wasn't interested.

COPA: Why not ask a question? Like "is your system operating?"
SM: I knew it was operating. He told me it was in January [2009]

COPA: He was offering something of unknown value, and you didn't ask?
SM: Didn't care.

COPA: This story is used to support his claims including in interviews with COinGeek, haven't you?
SM: Many other times too, yes.

COPA: You rejected his logging idea?
SM: due to cost and timing.

COPA: You later took the view it was a blockchain system?
SM: Some portions of it. the canary honeypot part was actually implemented. The full immutable log system wasn't.

COPA: That's a generic decoy for security systems. It doesn't necessary denote special knowledge of bitcoin.
SM: But an immutable timestampe server does.

COPA: But another bit only you know or have spoken about.
SM: I did see a copy of the proposal in the Kleiman trial.

COPA: forensics experts debunked the authenticity of that document. Wright may have been discussing honeypot systems. He certainly didn't propose anything with blockchain.
SM: They were timestamp servers.

COPA: Your last year at Centrebet was late 2010 into 2011?
SM: Yes

COPA: You moved to UK and were working as lead something at Tyche?
SM: Yea, a tech provider to gambling companies.

COPA: Bodog?
SM: Yes

COPA: Ayre?
SM: Yes

COPA: Tyche wasn't just Rob McGregor?
SM: I don't know its whole ownership.

COPA: You say in 2012, you watched a program of people in the USA using bitcoin. It had taken off and you were surprised.
SM: Yes, I was channel surfing, my sons weren't in the room, and I heard the word bitcoin, and I stopped and remember vividly people living in tents in the US transferring bitcoin between each other on mobile phones. My sons then showed up and we turned it over. It was fascinating to see the bitcoin name come up and reaffirm my memories of history.

COPA: So you tied back to Wright?
SM: Yes

COPA: the next year, it surged in price and was in the news!
SM: I don't recall seeing anything about that.

COPA: In 2014, Forbes called it the best investment
SM: Don't recall.

COPA: Did you ever reach out to Wright at the time to discuss his invention?
SM: the next time we spoke was when he reached out to me to make contact in January 2014.

COPA: So your friend created a revolution, and you weren't interested?
SM: I wasn't aware of the financial news.

COPA: You didn't mention to anyone?
SM: It wasn't important to me at the time.

COPA: You didn't take queues because you weren't interested?
SM: Correct.

COPA: You were one of the priviledged few who knew, but you didn't discuss it with him?
SM: I wasn't interested and didn't know about the furor.

COPA: No swearing to secracy?
SM: No

COPA: But his wife openly discussing?
SM: A lobby of a hotel, but I had passed on investment... She was talking about bitcoin but not about him inventing it.

COPA: She asked if you had been following? And you didn't bring up that Craig had invented it?!
SM: We obviously knew the history. I didn't know she was his wife at the time, but no. We didn't. I wasn't aware of the news. I didn't open a dialogue.

COPA: You didn't know about bitcoin exchanges?
SM: No

COPA: Email intro of Craig to Rob. Explaining at your last year at Centrebet, he showed you virtual currencies and you recount the hotel meeting mention, and then a bitcoin exchange as a way to speed up casino payments and exchange. Feb 2014, you were familiar with bitcoin exchanges.
SM: I wasn't familiar. I was pointing out that it existed. He would be interested with his nTrust business.

COPA: You seem familiar
SM: I had never used one, but Rob's business could use the tech. I was making the intro.

COPA: If your recounts were true, the best selling point would be to tell Rob that CSW was Satoshi, wouldn't it?
SM: That wasn't the point of the intro.

COPA: But if you're trying to connect Rob and Craig on virtual currencies, woudn't have made sense to mention?
SM: I said we had been in touch about virtual currency since 2007. I wasn't brokering a deal. I was connecting two people.

COPA: But you don't mention the one guy was the inventor?!
SM: I wanted to see if they wanted to work together. Not important detail.

COPA: It would be one sentence!
SM: It wasn't the point.

COPA: It would be a natural point to make.
SM: I disagree

COPA: You say here "during my last year at Centrebet, he was working with virtual currencies in plural." That's curious. That would have been 2010 or 11?
SM: I should have said "last years."

COPA: Reading this email on how you introduced him, it is perfectly clear you didn't think he was Satoshi at the time.
SM: disagree

COPA: Your next meeting with CSW was April 2015.
SM: After intro to Rob, we didn't talk for a while.

COPA: At that point, he had some business issues in Aus?
SM: Yes

COPA: You agreed to meet for dinner, then went to your hotel room, and while there you googled bitcoin and saw the white paper. You asked him after if he was Satoshi and he admitted it was him. He then told you about ATO DeMorgan issues.
SM: Yes

COPA: In your witness statement, you said you talked about all the issues with ATO, and you flew home and contacted Calvin about Wright and arranged for a meet with you, him and Rob with Wright in Vancouver.
SM: Did you mention Rob? It's interesting. In my mind, I thought Rob could be a good connection for Wright and Ayre has the same view.

COPA: Then, it was discussed how CSW was Satoshi?
SM: Later in Manila, but there were technical issues with the video meeting. nTrust CTO had an issue with Wright about bitcoin's design, and they got into a fight about it.

COPA: Then you went to Sydney to work on the affairs with DeMorgan. Rob came with you?
SM: He did.

COPA: Then Rob found a research paper that made him believe your account that Craig was Satoshi.
SM: Yes, Rob was wandering around and I followed him to a room. The binder had a 2006 date and it was a blockchain technology paper.

COPA: the next day, payments to Craig were arranged.
SM: It was around then, where we came to terms.

COPA: He had serious business problems then? Your CoinGeek interview said the staff numbers were nil at the time.
SM: It was empty. It looked like everyone dropped everything and walked out. Peterson and Savanna were still around, but not at the office when I was there.

COPA: Here's an investment pack called "Stefan Calvin Ayre." do you think a meeting took place where Ayre would invest in Wright's businesses?
SM: It's possible. the reality was that CA didn't invest in Craig's businesses at the time.

COPA: But it was a pitch for that?
SM: Yes

COPA: So, not bitcoin trading, but for the businesses?
SM: Correct

COPA: The only purpose was not a purchase of bitcoin?
SM: Huh? No

COPA: Here's Ayre and JLP. funding analysis of DeMorgen including 1.1m in funding legal costs.

COPA: A discussion of Ayre putting money into the business?
SM: Correct

COPA: You're emailing Ayre about funding investment into DeMorgan.
SM: Yes, you'll see it was a bit before I flew down to do serious due diligence.
COPA: I do.

COPA: Here's Ayre asking Wright how much Craig was asking "us" to commit to?
SM: Yes

COPA: Wright refers to $18m option between 8 for use and 10 for R&D.
SM: Yes

COPA: and a fancy tax restructuring.
SM: Yes

COPA: "I will not leave a debt not ever" according to Craig. So is it right that CSW was insisting to get enough money to pay off existing layers in the ATO case?
SM: Yes

COPA: So it was pitched this was in investment discussions.
SM: Yes

COPA: So ayre said you were getting on plane to figure it all out.
SM: Yes

COPA: So CSW's businesses couldn't even pay lawyers at the time.
SM: Correct

COPA: Funding would provide for new company to buy IP of DeMorgan to get the IP out of danger.
SM: Yes

COPA: 1.5m dollars?
SM: Yes. It's a term sheet, and a subsequent one replaced it. At the time, Rob and I were in Sydney with Craig and his wife.

COPA: There would be a monthly retainer rate of $200k. DR Tech. Who is that?
SM: A Rob entity.

COPA: Then a convertible loan for 1.3m?
SM: Yes

COPA: 37% of equity put in blind trust?
SM: Yes

COPA: And a services agreement consisting of 3.7m dollars which include the rights to his life story for a million. That's his life story, not a comapny's
SM: Yes

COPA: Then Another to Craig for other:
SM: Yes

COPA: 2nd version of term sheet too. This superseded the first.
SM: Correct.

COPA: Convertable loan only for Clayton Utz fees and new company to receive 75% of anything recovered from ATO.
SM: Yes

COPA: And Wright not getting equity in new entity. Why?
SM: DeMorgan was an unlisted pubco. I received legal advice that under Aus company code that signing an agreement like this with that type of co needed the notice posted and a certain period of time needed to mature before moving on. There were issues that it might not be a true arms-length agreement for various reasons. the Wrights agreed to changes to make it work.

COPA: Ok, so that's why phase 2
SM: Yes, And I worked with Baker MacKenzie who insisted that both are appended to show which supersedes the other.

COPA: Newco would have been nCrypt Holdings?
SM: I think so, yes.

COPA: Became nChain?
SM: Well, nCrypt was registered in Antigua to hold IP. nCrypt holdings Limited UK was for R&D. Then EITC and that became nChain, but the nCrypt Antigua was switched to Swiss holding.

COPA: that's what I thought.
SM: Originally, we wanted to keep running the sydney office and then have relationships between London and Sydney. Dual research centers. But when Wired and Giz came out, we changed completely.

COPA: Effectively, DeMorgan was able to function due to these payments, if they wanted to.
SM: Yes, the obvious benefit of working out ATO disputes would be claiming the R&D grants.

COPA: So they would have had value?
SM: Yes

COPA: and the IP and life story value?
SM: YEs, it was always obvious that the bitcoin development would come out and be part of the story, but we wanted to focus on the R&D, but things flipped with the outing.

COPA: the life story of CSW was hardly going to fly off the shelves just about IP and patents...
SM: Until it came to the bitcoin creation story.

COPA: So it was important to get the Satoshi part?
SM: Yes, but it was important that we wouldn't do this until 2016 by design.

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COPA: the ATO dealings didn't go well, did they?
SM: ATO continued to issue things even when I was involved in DeMorgan. Their claims were never really validated, but they kept sending penalty notices and burden the company with debt.

COPA: And the Calyton Utz ended their retainer over document integrity.
SM: I can tell you Andrew Somer had a private conversation with me explaining he was instructed to terminate the agreement with CSW not because he wanted to, but because the ATO was also a large client of Clayton Utz.

COPA: Were you shown this email from Somer to Ramona Watts? about the serious problems with the docs?
SM: I asked him what evidence existed that there were problems with the docs. It was asserted that someone at ATO went in and modified docs. There was no evidence of a security breech or attempt, why would they point the finger at Craig? He told me if anyone in the world could enter their system and exit without a footprint, it would be Craig, but they had no evidence.

COPA: You're aware there were dozens of footprints of forgery.
SM: they asserted that it must be CSW, but there was no evidence of breech.

COPA: Versions of emails submitted by wright don't correspond to versions on ATO servers.
SM: This is a sad email. Andrew was sad to have to be put in the position.

COPA: Looks like Somer took it seriously.
SM: He was protecting himself.

COPA: ATO didn't issue negative decisions on the R&D offset claims.
SM: they rejected the grants and issued penalties.

COPA: they were very detailed and well reasoned.
SM: I didn't see those.

COPA: Are you aware Wright made payments to David Rees for consulting?
SM: I am aware that that was stated.

COPA: Are you aware his family said to ATO that they didn't know Wright and he was in a nursing home when it would have happened.
SM: I'm unaware of any correspondence.

COPA: any knowledge about Rees?
SM: No, not aware.

COPA: Ever say comms between CSW and Rees?
SM: I saw what looked like a bitcoin transfer to Rees.

COPA: You don't knwo if it was genuine?
SM: No, I can't say.

COPA: See this email entitled "the book" about the prospective life story book including his work on bitcoin. sM: Yes

COPA: What you wrote is that Craig has accepted coming out.
SM: Correct

COPA: So you and CA were keen to see him out as Satoshi.
SM: Not quickly as what happened in 2016, but we were open as an idea.

COPA: You were pleased, though, that it would come out without pushing.
SM: Yes. the agreement wasn't even made until 2016 though.

COPA: But the plan was being actively discussed?
SM: There would be a point of time when a book would be published, but the agreement with him was that it wasn't going to occur without future agreement to timing.

COPA: There was no lack of enthusiasm on his part?
SM: Not with the concept.

COPA: He was comfortable with what the book would contain?
SM: Well, no. Details weren't laid out.

COPA: He wasn't saying he didn't want to come out though?
SM: Correct. He knew it would occur. His wish was that it wasn't until after his kids were done with school.

COPA: If someone said he was never going to be revealed as Satoshi, that would be wrong, right?
SM: We knew it would occur, but no timeline.

COPA: Here's Craid writing at Tyche email. He was employed at Tyche?
SM: Yes, I can explain this.

COPA: Please
SM: We knew the Wrights would move to London. We needed a Visa for him to come. Rob's company, tyche, had an allocation of foreign work permits, and he said HR could give one to Craig, and he can come to the UK and work for Tyche and it would transfer to nChain or Newco group when it was set up. It actually went from Tyche to workshop to nChain.

COPA: We see here an email chain between you and Kelly Connor from Tyche arranging a salary package.
SM: Looks like a high salary!

COPA: 160k pounds. this is signed by you on Baker MacKenzie letter. And sigs of heads of terms...
SM: Yes

COPA: 160k with Tyche. This is correct?
SM: I believe so, yes.

COPA: Looks genuine?
SM: As far as I'm aware.

COPA: You were CTO at Tyche?
SM: Well, for a year, but I went to Tyche ROHQ in the Philippines for a few years though.

COPA: It was Rob's company?
SM: I'm not sure in 2011, but he was operating it in 2015 for sure.

COPA: And when Wright was employed there, that was a genuine employment relationship?
SM: Yes

COPA: Because it was for his Visa, he would know it was genuine?
SM: Yes, as far as I'm aware.

COPA: We can run through it.
SM: Looks like his signature.

COPA: Email to Mr Philip... Loans to Wright and Ramona. They would have received 1.5m asset purchase and 1m initial rights package.
SM: Yes

COPA: And 250k here
SM: Yes

COPA: email among you with Wright, Ayre, Ramona, etc... About the media rights for the autobiography.
SM: Yes

COPA: Here's synopsis. about the bitcoin project. Need to consider a proof package to establish Satoshi's identity including moving coins of Satoshi's
SM: Yes

COPA: Ramona responded answering and giving a timeline.
SM: Yes, I see that.

COPA: There was no reluctance on Craig's part on the process to begin the work of the book?
SM: I don't recall this engagement with a NY firm. I don't think an engagement actually occurred.

COPA: Rob's email was referring to an engagement that hadn't happened yes?
SM: Maybe. He had talked about Google engagement that hadn't occurred too. I don't recall a firm being engaged here. I know I'm copied on the email, but I don't recall this email here.

COPA: Before 2014, you didn't know Craig claiming he was Satoshi?
SM: He didn't have to claim it to me. I was involved personally with him about it.

COPA: It's disputed.
SM: Not by me.

COPA: By us
SM: It's memories that would stay with me forever.

COPA: Those are false.
SM: No

COPA: You guys wanted to monetize them.
SM: No. That's an unfair depiction.

COPA: He was perfectly happy to go along with it for the funding.
SM: the funding wasn't based on him being in the book or the reveal. It was the tech and what we could do with it. nChain was formed for tech. I had to live through people telling us it was all fake and it was impossible to have 35 PHDs working. But it's true. They were and still do to this day!

COPA: Wright was happy to go along with the story initially.
SM: with the reveal at a time that suited him. After his kids finished school. He had deep concerns for his family.

COPA: the agreements don't say that.
SM: IDK

COPA: A reporter from Gawker asked CSW in 2015 if he or Dave had a role in bitcoin. CSW forwarded it to CA and you.
SM: And Rob

COPA: CA said "don't respond." And go dark for a few months to put best foot forward when he comes out in months. Implies outing would be soon.
SM: I supposed.

COPA: Ayre couldn't have thought it would be years. He thought it was in months.
SM: the reveal wasn't timed at all.

COPA: When it happened, you didn't control it.;
SM: It needed to be properly managed.

COPA: A few days later, Rob says to everyone various items were discussed shortly before Wired and Giz outings.
SM: [reading] No

COPA: Says "we need a proof packet before too long. Activating the SN wallets shows control of wallets..."
SM: It was around this time, he was starting to move more aggressively around the outing... He became far more aggressive when the events in December happened.

COPA: Which is when he was outed by Wired and Giz?
SM: Yes

COPA: you remember they cited posts on blog that were later shown to be modified and other evidence that was discredited?
SM: No

COPA: they suggested he could be a hoax?
SM: I do remember that.

COPA: Wright to Ayre, you and Ramona about inquiries from Wired... Rob says something about the book roll-out plan. Wright says how to keep it on the back-burner.
SM: Yes

COPA: The concern is that the Wired outing was undermining the planned media reveal.
SM: No, not at all. Wired and Giz, I was sitting there in Sydney, and Craig was getting approached by both. He was highly anxious about where the info had come from, what they had on him and he was not prepared for an outing by them. It was not just emails, but lots of calls and Rob said he has lots of experience in this, and that neither publication will do this without speaking to Craig. Rob said to say nothing. Of course, we know what happened. They published.

COPA: This is on the eve of publication. Gawker saying they're about to publish. Ayre's response was "get the lawyers, Rob." Rob saying the story has been broken. "Radically devalued the launch" you see that?
SM: Yes

COPA: Wright saying he didn't send emails. The concern was the outing undermined the outing by you the next year?
SM: Some unplanned date in the future.

COPA: ayre thought months
SM: Not sure

COPA: Then Wright made permanent relocation to UK then?
SM: He had secured property in Wimbledon in October 2015. Then they made the move shortly after doxing.

COPA: Jan 2016, Part of the new agreement was about recounting his history in detail.
SM: This looks like it.

COPA: So it was immediately in prospect?
SM: Well, then it was a different bit.

COPA: This was superseding the previous.
SM: this was also terminated eventually, you're aware.

COPA: We are. Wright had already received a 250k advance on it all.
SM: yes

COPA: He would get paid in stages. 100k on signature, 100k on first draft, 250k on publication on book, then 250k on outing as SN in December 2016.
SM: It was discussed by use in Antigua.

COPA: Milestone payments to encourage Craig.
SM: Yes

COPA: Rights also to dramatize it later too?
SM: Yes

COPA: Wright agreed to be part of interviews and provide materials.
SM: Yes. There was lots of discussion. We agreed Rob wouldn't enforce anything Craig objected to at the time.

COPA: Any docs to that?
SM: It was discussed in the drafting. And gentlemen's agreement.

COPA: The only part of any interest was the creation of bitcoin, right?
SM: It's a significant event, but his life has a lot of other interest in it.

COPA: It wouldn't be a huge crowd pleaser if it was just about IT Security?
SM: I understand your point, that bitcoin is a significant part.

COPA: It was consistent since prior too?
SM: None of it would occur until Craig was content though. He was clear that he wanted his children to be clear of school and somewhere safe.

COPA: It's wrong to say Wired and Giz led to Rob getting insistent about proof. He was clear he had that desire before.
SM: rob became insistent and unreasonable, dictatorial as January unfolded. He was aggressive, arrogant. threatened to send Craig back to Aus without a penny and threatened to cancel his Visa...

COPA: You are trying to cast Rob as the villain to cover for Craig not providing proper proof.
SM: No

COPA: Rob wasn't being unreasonable. He was setting up good proof sessions.
SM: I met with Rob's head of marketing. She was embarassed that Rob was pressuring CSW. She told me late last year, if you want details, talk to Victoria Brooks. She kept detailed notes. It was hostile. Every single meeting was hostile. Raised voices, not a good environment.

COPA: So far, we don't see that. We see him being collaborative on proof sessions.
SM: Emails don't show emotion.

COPA: By that stage, March 2016, you were helping make plans for proof sessions.
SM: rob was

COPA: You forwarding to Wright, and email from Jon Matonis about means of proof.
SM: I need to clarify then, are you asking about Matonis and Andresen sessions, because I WAS involved in those. Me, CA and CSW were in Antigua to discuss the story rights. There was lots of emotional talks about proof sessions. CSW agreed he would do a private session to demonstrate to Rob that he could do it. It was myself that came up with Jon MAtonis who might be a good person to do that with. I decided that because in October, we were interviewing candidates for positions in the office in London, Jon participated in a contest from the US. We were having breakfast and Jon called Craig, and I had a short convo with Jon, who I didn't know. When we were in Antigua, I suggested him for being well known and there was some trust. I reached out to Jon on LinkedIn and ultimately, we met at a juicebar, and that's where it began.

COPA: They weren't the only people contacted though?
SM: One other, and they weren't interested.

COPA: You were active in arranging these?
SM: Yes, I was.

COPA: It was a compromise that had been worked out.
SM: Yes

COPA: You were happy?
SM: About the compromise

COPA: Jon session was March 2016?
SM: I won't dispute it

COPA: then Jon would contact Gavin or Hearn?
SM: I don't think Hearn was spoken to though.

COPA: Says flight would be handled by you?
SM: Yes

COPA: Jon said he hasn't been able to convince Wright to do proofs.
SM: Jon had already seen proofs. Wright didn't agree to Rob's proceeding with other people to line up for more signings.

COPA: You weren't ROb's underling were you?
SM: Rob said as long as money was on the table, I'd take instructions from him.

COPA: You were runnign with the media stuff.
SM: Not enthusiastically.

COPA: Doesn't look like you were resisting.
SM: Text doesn't show emotion.

COPA: You emailed Gavin for 7-8 april, so you were arranging that as well.
SM: YEs

COPA: As far as you can recall, these are genuine emails? Craig@nCrypt email. We saw others from mid-march 2016 going through the time. Did you receive emails during this time from Craig's various addresses?
SM: I wouldn't recall which email addresses.

COPA: did you receive any emails from Craig in that time that didn't seem to accord with his typical feelings?
SM: Ha! I get emails today from Craig where I feel that way...

COPA: Gavin emailed you saying he would need several pieces of evidence. One thing is verified on his computer, the PGP key or message from early bitcoin blocks. Otherwise, could be modified to trick him.
SM: Yes

COPA: He didn't get to do this on his computer?
SM: No

COPA: Also technical convo about bitcoin?
SM: Yes

COPA: You forwarded to Craig and he replied only one thing: a technical conversation to show that it was the same person they were talking to in 2010. He wanted to move away from objective proofs.
SM: I don't know what they spoke about, but Gavin and CSW communicated, and I received an email from Gavin saying he was then ready to come to London.

COPA: Would you agree this email was precisely that he wanted to avoid cryptographic proof?
SM: He was prepared to do a signing under certain conditions. IE that they were private.

Mellor: How much longer?
COPA: Lunch tomorrow...

Mellor: Resuming tomorrow morning.

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