Thread by @tribunaltweets

We expect to be live tweeting the employment tribunal of Kevin Lister today from approximately 10 am. An overview of the case is here:
tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kevin-lister…

Abbreviations (will be added to throughout the morning)
KL or C - Kevin Lister, claimant
NCS or R - New College Swindon, respondent
CK - Carole Kitching – College Principal (now retired)
AS - Amanda Spanswick (Assistant Principal and line manager)

CB - Charlotte Best (Initial investigation manager and Deputy designated safeguarding lead)
JD - Jane Davison (Assistant Principal, and second investigation manager)
LP - Lynn Plested (Vice Principal)
PF - Peta Fry (HR manager)
DSL - designated safeguarding lead

Certain witnesses and pupils will not be identified by name. Initials as below will be used.
A - principal female student who wished to present as a male.
B - student instigator of complaint.
C - member of staff providing transgender training course.

On behalf of NCS
JS - Joanne Shepherd, barrister
JO - Joanne Oliver, solicitor

We expect to be starting immediately.

EJ - good morning, we have completed our reading, we are ready to start.
EJ - employment judge
EJ - pronouns are important in this case. My default position is anyone who presents as female, is miss, she or her. Anyone who presents as male - mr, he or him.

EJ - I can ask witnesses how they like to be referred to.
KL - can I comment? This case is about pronouns and I want to be able to refer to Student A as she or her. I was only instructed to use he or him by Student B.
EJ - I expect we will use Student A or the student.

And we are unlikely to use her or other pronouns.
KL - thank you. Can I refer to A as she or her?
EJ - we are talking about pronouns for people in court as a courtesy. Your evidence is your evidence. And we will not give any instructions on how you refer to A in evidence.

KL - fine
EJ - JS - anything arising?
JS - no.
EJ - now talking about timing, starting early today, shorter lunch hour. But JS - 8 hours of x examination time looks excessive.
JS - I've been through my qs aqain. Hope to spend less time.
EJ - KL, please come to the

witness table.
EJ - KL, you can only take a piece of paper to take notes, you cannot have anything to refer to.
KL - returns laptop and notebook to table, takes the witness stand.
EJ - affirming KL,
KL - affirms.

KL - may I make one comment about my witness statement?
EJ - lets deal with that first, subject to any changes or errors, otherwise statement truthful etc
KL - correct
EJ - what are the errors?
KL - minor correction, I did inform Ms Best of the safeguarding referral I'd made

in respect of student A.
JS - starting by looking at indiscrimination claim, referring to employment contract. Is that your contract
KL - yes
JS - expected to work flexibly, efficiently, expected to comply with rules and regs, terms of contract, range of policies and procedures

u r expected to familiarise yourself with them. Did you do that.
KL - yes, I probably did that no more or no less than anyone else commencing employment. Website was very slow, I familiarised myself with those procedures in the contract and those relevant to my employment and

especially safeguarding and code of conduct.
JS - code of conduct. Says 'all staff are accountable for actions, take responsibility, act in student's best interests, etc' you are aware of that
KL - yes
JS - also requires all staff to be familiar with safeguarding policy

KL - yes, I did familiarise myself
JS - intro to policy says 'regarding each learner as a unique individual, safe and secure in order to learn' these are central to well being' 'college is committed to safeguarding welfare. You knew from the outset that these were the rqmnts.

KL - yes, I knew that and complied fully with the rqmnts.
JS - staff expectations, 'all staff must know how to contact DSL (designated safeguarding lead)' you knew how to contact that person and any deputies
KL - no. I never knew who the DSL was or who the safeguarding

manager was
JS - who did you ask about who the DSL was
KL - I submitted my query through 'my concern'
JS - not my question. Who did you ask?
KL - I didn't think anyone in the maths dept knew.
JS - you didn't make the effort to find out?
KL - didn't make the effort isnt'

exactly correct. I had no need to contact anyone in safeguarding. I could have emailed my line manager but they never answered any other email so no expectation they would answer me
JS - you were req'd to report to senior management by policy
KL - yes, I did that

JS - did you familiarise yourself with the gender reassignment policy
KL - no I didn't think it would be important to my work
JS - when did you familiarise yourself with it?
KL - after I was suspended
JS - you had a student who asked to be referred to by a different name

KL - I read the safeguarding policy and applied that, I thought I was in the correct policy, why would I look for another one
JS - so if you didn't see it before you were suspended, you could not have raised a concern about it.
KL - I didn't not have to follow it,

per my contract, but familiarise myself with it.
JS - not my q. You could not have raised a concern about a policy you hadn't read?]
KL - no, I could not
JS - looking at GR (gender reassignment) policy, all staff responsible for following this policy

KL - contract says 'familiarise' but doesn't require compliance, reference to GR policy as circular, doesn't understand what 'support trans staff and students' means.
EJ - not part of question you were asked, please restrict your answers to the q.
JS - you assert that the GR

policy places any staff with gender critical (GC) beliefs at a disadvantage. It says respect, don't you respect them?
KL - Yes, I always behave respectfully
JS - does that place you at a disadvantage
KL - its the interpretation and references to discrim, harassment,etc

JS - we're not looking at that at the moment, does the wording of the policy place you at any disadvantage
KL - it's the interpretation of the college or what that means
JS - do you agree that NCS has a duty to provide a positive environment for staff and students

KL - yes and I complied with that aim.
JS - NCS commits to a positive and inclusive diverse learning environment
KL - its the interpretation in this document that I cannot comply with. The statement is fundamentally about encouraging children to transition to the opposite sex.

JS - are you saying that you cannot apply the policy to transgender student
KL - what I'm saying is that the safeguarding aspects of transition make this policy difficult
JS - would that particular aim of the policy, caused you difficulty
KL - I would not have taken the job

if I had seen that policy and told I had to apply with
JS - you're saying you can't follow the policy
KL - no, I'm happy to support trans students and have all my career
JS - you can't support trans students
KL - I should not be required to encourage a child to believe that they

are the opposite sex
JS - queries re policy again, the policy does not say you must encourage children to believe that they can change sex - can you say you were prepared to comply with the policy
KL - I did everything I could to respect diversity and difference, but its not my

job to encourage anyone down a specific pathway.
JS - you were content with the policy then
KL - yes
JS - encouraging good relations between those with differences? did you do that? Do you support the policy or were you placed at a disadvantage by the policy?

KL I was not able to comply with that policy. I had a safeguarding concern. That clearly does not encourage good relations between different people. I could not do it. And other teachers left because of it.
JS - it just encourages respect for people with gender identity

KL - no, it's not the point of that policy
JS - NCS applies it beyond the scope of the Eq Act, including non-binary, etc and they are entitled to the same respect. Do you agree with that
KL - let me read it back to you - what it says is we are making up the law. The policy

itself is illegal. It has been taken down and not replaced.
JS - so you couldn't apply this policy to non-binaries
KL - no. the policy was illegal, we shouldn't have policies that go beyond the law, we get into a mushy swamp
EJ - asking for clarification on what KL means by

illegal.
KL - I'm just a humble maths teacher, so I don't know. It extends protections beyond that which are in the act.
EJ - so I've correctly understood how you are using illegal.
SJ - collect expects all to be treated with respect regardless of gender identity (GI)

Do you agree?
KL - yes, and it's an appropriate aim.
JS - aim is to establish respect for all with a GI other than there birth sex.
KL - yes
JS - nothing in the policy requires anyone to believe that sex is not binary or immutable
KL - doesn't require GC people to change

our beliefs. But mandates a positive attitude towards GI, it restricts us from manifesting our beliefs.
JS - it sets out how it expects you to behave, there's a wide range of beliefs amongst the 8,000 staff and students. Do you agree?
KL - of course, it's a major topic of

conversation in the college, a huge number of different views.
JS - its setting out what it expects from staff
KL - it's setting out compelled speech and behaviour
JS - GC beliefs don't prohibit you from treating people with respect and courtesy
KL - of course not

JS - you don't have belief that men can be women etc to treat those people with respect
KL - please repeat
JS - repeats -
KL - that depends on what you mean 'treat with respect'
if it's making me use compelled speech, and my class it is violating my beliefs

JS - the aspect you particularly take issue with is use of preferred names and pronouns
KL - I take issue with social transition of those unable to make an informed decision
JS - the policy does not require anyone to socially transition
KL - that is the intent of the policy

to encourage social transition, to all speak and behave the same,
JS - where does it say that
KL - app 3, it says to use name and pronouns, not allowed to enquire why transitions
JS - to use the name, title and pronouns - that encourages social transition

KL - Student B told me to call Student A a man and use male pronouns. And the policy refers students to pro-transition lobby groups only. There is nothing in this policy at all that raises any risks or contrary views.
JS - you said you wouldn't have taken up this job if

you had seen this policy. You had a warning on trans issue in your previous job.
KL - there was a child, did not ask me to call her male or transition, but her mother did and that gave me safeguarding concerns
JS - is that why you left previous job?
KL - I was disappointed

but also I had a change in my personal circumstances.
JS - so because of this problem you should have been aware of the trans policy?
KL - I couldn't imagine that NCS could have a policy like this and be so stupid as this.
JS - did Cirencester have a policy like this?

KL - they did not have a written policy.
JS - on to another issue, your case on disadvantage, it's because the R celebrates diversity etc it did not address you safeguarding concern
KL - yes, not only did not address but undermined safeguarding concern
JS - and it came up in

training given by Employee C.
KL - yes
JS - safeguarding relates to individual student and is specific to that student
KL - yes, I was specific and detailed about my concerns and I was worried that a girl who wants to be a boy is a reason for concern.
JS - but Dof E

does not consider transition in and of itself a safeguarding concern
KL - I did not know that when I raised my concern, but I did find out that the sentence was inserted with the help of Stonewall
JS - going back to the policy

JS - is it important for the college to encourage an environment that allows diversity to flourish
KL - compelled speech is the antithesis of that, abandoning safeguarding is the antithesis of that.
JS - you accept that your GC beliefs need to co-exist with the beliefs of others

KL - I agree
JS - do you agree that others have the right to live their lives in the gender identity you've chosen
KL - I don't know what 'living your life in the chosen gender' does a girl take testosterone, use the boys toilets and the boys changing rooms.
JS - not what I was

asking,
KL - I don't impose my beliefs on others. A wanted to impose her beliefs on others by compelled speech and actions.
JS - you do agree that A should have the right to live her life in the gender, and that should be respected
KL - it's the interpretation of word respect

- they can do what they want but they should be able to compel the speech or actions of others.
JS - nothing in the policy requires teachers to encourage social transition
KL - the policy directs students to a pro-medicalisation lobby groups that extolls the joys of transition

JS - the college does not have such a policy
KL - refers to transgender training, visit from Mermaids, celebrating supporting a number of transitioning students
JS - there is no evidence that supports that view
KL - there is, emails from teacher who will volunteer for Mermaids

and will bring those materials to school, and an LGBTQ club that is a 'safe space' and is pro-transition, and a teacher that has actively encouraged a number of students to transition
JS - so it's the directions to pro-trans resources
KL - no not just that
JS - the only teacher

that questioned that, was investigated and fired being me.
JS - the policy does not call for celebrating the taking of wrong sex hormones
KL - the policy calls for celebrating all aspects of transition, and in the training we were told some of the signs of girls taking wrong

sex hormones, such as early menopause.
JS - the policy says respect for trans and nonbinary students and staff
KL - it calls for the disciplinary action against those who don't support trans and non-binary. It doesn't define what bullying and harassment actually is.

JS - what I took issue with, your statement is the policy threatens to dismiss GC staff, it does not say that.
KL - what I took exception with is that I cannot express concerns about the path a student has taken
JS - its not a math's teachers role to express those concerns

KL - it shouldn't have to be.
EJ - JS you have taken much longer with this aspect than I expect or frankly than was necessary. Cautions KL on discussing evidence with anyone during the break.
Back in 15 minutes.
Court rises.

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