Thread by @tribunaltweets

We are continuing to report from Lister v New College Swindon. Expecting to resume at 2pm.

Our earlier coverage here:

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1770386735169462552?s=20

EJ Welcome back

KL Your conclusions. 'Kevin has attended training specifically on gender transition however his views do not appear to have altered.' I and many others have GC views. Are you suggesting we should change our views even in absence of evidence.

CB No it's to do with how you address the students and respect their requests re address.

KL The gay cake case - did you give consideration to the idea of people having to say things they didn't agree with.

CB You could have used a gender-neutral pronoun.

KL What would be your response if I insisted on my students addressing me in a way that they knew to be untrue (eg address me as Comrade Kevin, with me id ing as a communist) that validated my beliefs. Would that be acceptable.

CB You could have used gender neutral pronouns. That was outlined in the training.

KL It was not in my training.

CB Neutral respect and tolerance - having your own views but not imposing them on others.

KL Should a teacher not be able to explain the risks to students of their proposed course of action?

CB Your role was to teach maths. There are pastoral staff to explore gender views and other PCs among students.

KL Why should teachers not talk to students about the risks, eg of starting testosterone.

EJ CB's role was to investigate students' complaint and she produced a report. That is all her role, so not sure why you are asking this.

CB We are education professionals. Not to address medical issues. As you are asking re parental consent, the email from the parent about A is using A's preferred pronouns so I didn't feel that was relevant to your case.

KL A said would come back to my class if I addressed A as a boy. B asked for me to be educated re trans issues. So why were you calling for my dismissal when they weren't.

CB My recommendation - I wasn't involved in decision re dismissal. But I have duty of care to refer to dept

CB Students ask for you to stop using incorrect pronouns, not to use preferred pronouns.

KL I wasn't given the opportunity by the college to do that.

P1 (to CB) Please clarify re records, there was no compulsion to use student's prior name

CB in my investigation A said records still didn't show how they wanted to be addressed. We could change college records but not the exam records. I individual learning plan - consideration is for student welfare. Re student suicide, if anything can be changed

on part of college we should do so as make a real difference to students.

EJ Can student him/herself change their pronoun or does college have to do that.

CB Has to be done by college.

P2 One question. Suggests Student 1 had approached KL after class

on a number of occasions, What evidence did you have that they have approached KL and asked for change on a number of occasions.

CB We have messages that student requested KL change pronouns that weren't taken into account. We have interview notes from student.

CB [Reading from docs, various places] Student's account asking KL for the specific name to be used. Another place where KL talks about increased pressure on NHS re gender change. This is the second occasion student talking to KL after class...

P2 Did you ask about any other occasions other than the ones we have here in the docs.

CB There were online comments that students were exposed to. Again here, a reference to staying after class to ask KL to desist - that's at least three occasions.

CB I take that as repeated unwanted behaviour.

EJ Q c circumstances of interview A and B. Were they in room at same time?

CB Initially I met with B, info gathering. It became apparent complaint was re A, that A was feeling intimidated and unhappy.

CB A's body language bore this out. I asked A and A said A would prefer to be supported during the statement so I continued to take the information with A and B there together.

[Student 1 = student A]

EJ Student A's account runs over several pages. Account from student B - I'm not quite clear. Did you direct qs to A first, then B? Were they chipping in to help each other.

CB Advice is not to ask probing questions. Questions for clarification but not to put forward suggestion

CB I was listening to find out what the complaint was. The summary here is note-taking for my benefit, re things to look into - transphobic comments, entry into Olympiad with name, etc.

JS Re examination. It was put to you that you didn't reference

JS [cont] a student who KL had had previously, who had major mood swings, etc. KL said every student he had had in class who was gender transitioning was underperforming academically.

[CB ends]

Now Amanda Spanswick (Assistant Principal and line manager) is sworn in.

JS Any changes to doc

AS Just that I am not longer employed by NCS.

KL AS, you gave me my job at NCS. Thank you for that. I am deeply sorry that it has turned out like this

KL Reads from AS witness statement. KL is a committed teacher.

AS I was part of the senior management.

KL At my interview you gave no guidance how to treat trans pupil.

AS No the place for that, in a job interview.

KL Is it a reasonable expectation for employee to read everything re policy.

AS Not reasonable at the very beginning. But would expect them to look at policy if things crop up day to day.

KL Should employee be aware of all detail in all policy

KL Especially if it's important enough to dismiss someone?

AS I would expect us to be aware of procedure of environment in which you work. And qs would be raised if policy isn't followed - not first or second date, but be aware of policy in timely fashion.

KL You received email from Jo Hewitt re powerpoint presentation raising concerns c the transgender policy.

AS I forwarded that to the safeguarding team. JH raised questions/concerns and we had conversations. I requested training for people on how to deal with this.

AS You and JH and other staff members had raised concerns. I'm no expert and I wasn't in the training session so I don't know the context.

KL We'll come on to context.

EJ It was quite a short question.

KL JH should have expected a response in writing to this concern

AS No, no written response. You raised concerns, JH raised concerns...

EJ Can we confine to the questions. You were then asked should she have expected a written response?

AS No not then. But this was now two people who had raised concerns so needed to look at it.

KL I didn't mention A in that conversation. I was expressing my serious concern. You remember this after three years, so I assume it was forcefully put.

AS Don't remember forceful. I did understand we needed to look at training.

EJ To help re use of your time, KL, I am not making a note of your responses, when you are not asking a question.

AS I remember thinking this was a training need for staff as they didn't know what to do and what was right re the transgender policy.

KL AS reads from witness statement. I want to make three points ..

EJ please don't

KL Are you suggesting I should have asked questions re the policy

AS No, not suggesting that.

KL Trans id is a mental health disorder so why do you find my comments jarring

AS I'm not an expert, didn't at that point in time see it as a mental illness. So I found it jarring - my opinion. I think mental illness may be present at the same time. Tight timespan for training and a lot of information to be delivered. We needed to move forward.

KL You said the DSL sent a message to teams as he was concerned by my comment. You say he was concerned, but that's not how it reads to me. He appears keen to chase down what he sees to be a transphobic bigot.

AS That's not my take. Nothing to suggest that motivation.

AS Lots of possible interpretations but didn't occur to me he was on a witch hunt.

KL DSL then undermined my second safeguarding concern I sent to you. {to docs} eg this is a huge step from me raising safeguarding concerns to having it used against me.

AS I wasn't party to the Lado referral, and I haven't seen DSL discriminating against you or anyone else.

KL It seems the response to me q is to send to CB.

AS There was discussion in the chat. It was a long time ago. Was it not replied to?

KL People seem to be focusing on me rather than other people's comments. Was a screenshot taken of another colleague?

AS Don't know.

KL Course didn't appear neutral re transgender training, given the title of the course.

AS Cannot remember exact title - long time ago.

KL Did you realise course was so pro-trans that there was no opportunity for anyone to discuss. All from Mermaids, Stonewall etc.

AS I wasn't there in the training. When I looked through the Powerpoint I didn't think it was pro-trans. I wasn't a there, didn't get the nuances of conversations that went alongside the slides. But if training was c trans students it would have to be about them.

KL I wrote 4-page response to the slides expressing my concerns. Could you not then see it was biased ideology to bring into school environment.

AS No. Couldn't see that. I forwarded it to people who had better understanding than I did. I didn't agree with many of your email

comments. I would count myself among people who would need help in reaching better informed views. I didn't agree eg with your view that Slide x was no better than low-grade pornography.

KL You didn't take up my concerns?

AS You raised it as a safeguarding matter. I'm not a safeguarding officer. The concern needed to go to someone in that area.

KL I told you about a colleague who said they had directly supported three students to transition. That was part of my safeguarding concern.

KL It was reasonable for me to assume safeguarding concern was in system and would be dealt with?

AS Yes

KL Another email - me framing my safeguarding concern goes to DSL and is never properly addressed.

EJ Not possible for AS to answer that. Go to break.

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