Good morning NOT from the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry, but Wallis Towers where I have been marooned since marching to Walton station only to find someone had kidnapped all the trains. I am still going to live-tweet the inquiry thanks to the magic of the internet. 🧵 
Former top Post Office exec Angela van den Bogerd is giving her second day of evidence today and Jason Beer KC has started by asking about her role in the appalling case of Martin Griffiths.
Here is a letter Martin sent to his contracts manager.
The board meeting is the one Susan Crichton was forced to sit outside.
AB says she has not seen the letter before today.
AB says she was also not aware SC was told to sit outside until she saw the evidence today
We are taken to a letter from Doreen Griffiths, Martin's mother...
AB says she has not seen the letter before today.
AB says she was also not aware SC was told to sit outside until she saw the evidence today
We are taken to a letter from Doreen Griffiths, Martin's mother...
She was in her 80s at the time and she and her husband had poured thousands into the business to plug the black hole in his account at Hope Farm Road.
She mentions MG's termination and the PO's determination to pursue him for 20% of the money lost during the robbery.
She mentions MG's termination and the PO's determination to pursue him for 20% of the money lost during the robbery.
Martin's story features in Ep 3 of the Post Office drama and has a chapter in my book.
The PO report into the robbery is put up by JB - we look at p4 of the report of the incident.
The PO found MG culpable for the robbery. Initially they demanded £38,000, reduced to 20%.
JB the PO blamed him for the robbery
AB for not following security procedures - door was open and the time lock on the safe was unset
JB on 23 Sep 2013 MG drove to a layby on the A41 and...
JB the PO blamed him for the robbery
AB for not following security procedures - door was open and the time lock on the safe was unset
JB on 23 Sep 2013 MG drove to a layby on the A41 and...
... deliberately stepped in front of an oncoming bus. He was badly injured, and lay in a coma for about three weeks. On 11 Oct his life support was swtiched off and he passed away that day. The coroner concluded he had taken his own life.
We go to the PO response.
We go to the PO response.
JB on the day MG walked in front of the bus, Alan Bates wrote to Paula Vennells Jo Swinson, AB, James Arbuthnot, Susan Crichton and others.
The PO's first reaction was to get a media lawyer on hand.
JB no thought for his family or for MG. No help offered. Nothing. Is that what it was like working at the PO, that the first thought is the brand and that you need to get a media lawyer in?
AB we thought it was a traffic accident didn't know what had happened
JB this email chain
AB we thought it was a traffic accident didn't know what had happened
JB this email chain
... tells you he walked in front of a bus.
AB I was genuinely concerned for the family
JB I think you're talking about much later. What I'm asking about is the instant reaction. The first thought was "we need a media lawyer here"
AB I don't think it was the first thought...
AB I was genuinely concerned for the family
JB I think you're talking about much later. What I'm asking about is the instant reaction. The first thought was "we need a media lawyer here"
AB I don't think it was the first thought...
... "it was definitely a consideration in everything that we did" around the PR and comms element... it was always a consideration.
AB why was that an important consideration? A man, one of your people had walked in front of a bus.
JB you email Mr Chester and said...
AB why was that an important consideration? A man, one of your people had walked in front of a bus.
JB you email Mr Chester and said...
... this is what we're dealing with? What is "what you're dealing with?"
AB I'd called him and left a message and was forwarding the details
JB why no concern for the family
AB I was just trying to get the information about what happened
JB takes her to an email from MG's daughter Lauren, which points out the PO have been ***** and the...
JB why no concern for the family
AB I was just trying to get the information about what happened
JB takes her to an email from MG's daughter Lauren, which points out the PO have been ***** and the...
... gun to the head offer of £140,000 - the equivalent of a Network Transformation compensation payment, which AB explains as 26 months remuneration.
JB why was that loss of office figure seen as appropriate
MG Martin wanted to leave, but then we sacked him so he didn't qualify
JB why was that loss of office figure seen as appropriate
MG Martin wanted to leave, but then we sacked him so he didn't qualify
... for the loss of office payment, so we made this offer.
AB talks about meeting Gina, Lauren, his mother and Gina's brother
JB the payment was your idea
AB yes there was financial pressure on the family
JB conditional on dropping the claim
AB that was the way it was structured
AB talks about meeting Gina, Lauren, his mother and Gina's brother
JB the payment was your idea
AB yes there was financial pressure on the family
JB conditional on dropping the claim
AB that was the way it was structured
AB there was an NDA
JB but that was for people leaving the business - there was a live claim against the PO through the Mediation Scheme and they had to drop that too, as per the agreements
AB [spends 150 words saying] yes
JB it was important for PR purposes that the...
JB but that was for people leaving the business - there was a live claim against the PO through the Mediation Scheme and they had to drop that too, as per the agreements
AB [spends 150 words saying] yes
JB it was important for PR purposes that the...
... PO drops the claim?
AB no, my concern was for the family
JB takes her to a letter she wrote to Gina
AB no, my concern was for the family
JB takes her to a letter she wrote to Gina
JB picks her up on the word "normal" - this is not a normal situation. You had absolute discretion to give them whatever you want.
AB yes
JB reads out the rest of the letter
AB yes
JB reads out the rest of the letter
JB takes her to email advice from Rodric Williams to AB
JB so you were still thinking of suing his estate for the robbery money?
AB it was still live. I didn't want to.
JB we gave GG staged payments as an incentive to maintain confidentiality, which we can stop if she breaches confidentiality
AB it was still live. I didn't want to.
JB we gave GG staged payments as an incentive to maintain confidentiality, which we can stop if she breaches confidentiality
Sir Wyn Williams (Chair SWW) and you improved this?
AB yes
JB anything unsavoury about that?
AB I wanted to get the payment out to her.
JB when MG died there was a live dispute about the cause of the discrepancies in his branch. He was saying it was Horizon
AB [waffles]
AB yes
JB anything unsavoury about that?
AB I wanted to get the payment out to her.
JB when MG died there was a live dispute about the cause of the discrepancies in his branch. He was saying it was Horizon
AB [waffles]
JB should you not have given a discretionary payment and let Second Sight's mediation scheme investigation continue
AB [waffles and dissembles]
JB do you remember JFSA saying not to approach Gina without telling them
AB Gina approached me
JB and you didn't tell Alan Bates
AB [waffles and dissembles]
JB do you remember JFSA saying not to approach Gina without telling them
AB Gina approached me
JB and you didn't tell Alan Bates
AB it was a confidential agreement
JB and the JFSA were only told about the NDA and settlement at the working group of the Mediation Scheme after it was signed
AB it was not for me to give the JFSA that information, the formal route was the withdrawal notice being sent to...
JB and the JFSA were only told about the NDA and settlement at the working group of the Mediation Scheme after it was signed
AB it was not for me to give the JFSA that information, the formal route was the withdrawal notice being sent to...
... the scheme.
JB so you procured for £140,000 a settlement with the closing of a live claim for what happened to MG and the Horizon issue in the branch and you got it all hushed up, using staged payments as an incentive for keeping it hushed up
AB all PO settlements...
JB so you procured for £140,000 a settlement with the closing of a live claim for what happened to MG and the Horizon issue in the branch and you got it all hushed up, using staged payments as an incentive for keeping it hushed up
AB all PO settlements...
... come with NDAs...
JB why?
AB because that's the way they operated, it's ..
JB but why? take a step back from the answer of an automaton. why does the PO always insist on NDAs
AB because that's how they tied up the agreements
JB yes but why?
JB why?
AB because that's the way they operated, it's ..
JB but why? take a step back from the answer of an automaton. why does the PO always insist on NDAs
AB because that's how they tied up the agreements
JB yes but why?
AB standard approach. same today
JB does it like secrecy?
AB it was their way of doing it.
[AB says there was a settlement different to the £140,000 in the end, but she doesn't know what it is]
JB does it like secrecy?
AB it was their way of doing it.
[AB says there was a settlement different to the £140,000 in the end, but she doesn't know what it is]
We move on to a new topic...
An email from Ron Warmington to AB about a lost transaction
Bogey passes it on to Andy Winn, who had "doubts with this situation" and she wanted to get his side.
JB idea that transactions could be lost was a big deal right
AB yes
JB and the point RW was making was that there was no way of alerting the SPM
AB yes that was not the case tho
JB idea that transactions could be lost was a big deal right
AB yes
JB and the point RW was making was that there was no way of alerting the SPM
AB yes that was not the case tho
AB gets Gareth Jenkins involved
JB are you taking the lead here?
AB [prevaricates and eventually agrees]
JB are you taking the lead here?
AB [prevaricates and eventually agrees]
Helen Rose email which mentions court proceedings and how this data was not visible in court
JB data in court not visible? Worrying?
AB I was concerned about what had happened in the branch
JB HR is raising a broader issue. we may not be giving the court a full picture
AB didn't read it like that
JB you did nothing about this
AB I got the change request through
AB I was concerned about what had happened in the branch
JB HR is raising a broader issue. we may not be giving the court a full picture
AB didn't read it like that
JB you did nothing about this
AB I got the change request through
JB I'm talking about inaccurate info being presented to the courts
AB I didn't read it like that
JB takes AB to her WS on this issue
AB I didn't read it like that
JB takes AB to her WS on this issue
JB you think you didn't see the subsequent report that Helen Rose wrote until the Bates v PO group litigation (GLO)?
AB yep
AB yep
JB so when HR raised the issue that basic ARQ logs are used in court and they don't give a true picture, you did nothing
AB I would expect her to deal with it
JB you say you need a greater "knowledge scope" in order to recognised this was serious
AB I was knew to it...
AB I would expect her to deal with it
JB you say you need a greater "knowledge scope" in order to recognised this was serious
AB I was knew to it...
... [sorry "new" to it] and I expected Helen to deal with it.
JB did you share this important information with Ron Warmington
AB no
We take a break.
JB did you share this important information with Ron Warmington
AB no
We take a break.
Whilst we're on a break and before I go and make a coffee, here is my write up of AvdB's evidence yesterday.
postofficescandal.uk/post/the-first…
postofficescandal.uk/post/the-first…
JB takes AB to an email sent to Ron Warmington (RW) from Second Sight (2S) about a transaction reversal problem in relation to Lee Castleton's case and the Lepton case.
Shirley Hailstones replies cutting Lee, Ian and Alan out of the email
Warmington cuts them all back and asks her to reply to all going forward.
JB raises this, notes that SH forwards the chain to AB and AB forwards it to Rodric Williams and Andy Parsons, saying it should not be widely circulated.
JB wants to know why
AB point of process - some applicants did not want to see correspondence
JB so you had the wellbeing...
JB wants to know why
AB point of process - some applicants did not want to see correspondence
JB so you had the wellbeing...
... and health of SPMs in the forefront of your mind and you were trying to stop them being triggered. Is that your evidence?
AB that was part of it. It was also outside the agreed information flow
JB were you trying to limit the SPMs from getting access to info
AB just a process
AB that was part of it. It was also outside the agreed information flow
JB were you trying to limit the SPMs from getting access to info
AB just a process
... point
JB you wanted to stop SPMs from getting info
AB no, because they could get everything from 2S
We move on.
JB you wanted to stop SPMs from getting info
AB no, because they could get everything from 2S
We move on.
Email from Steve Darlington to Ron. Steve is Scott Darlington's brother. We had both on stage in Crewe two weeks ago, Steve is a chartered accountant and came on board to help the Second Sight investigation. He wrote an early, devastating report into the PO's audit function.
This is the email
It generates a response from Belinda Crowe re the Winn/Lusher email chain referenced in Steve's email
AvdB answers Crowe with the Winn/Lusher email chain and this covering email
JB says three issues raised by Steve Darlington
a) Winn/Lusher email
b) TC/TA issues
c) Helen Rose report
JB wants to know what was done about SD's assertion the HR report was essential
AB I didn't do anything, that was Belinda Crowe's area
JB why?
AB she picked it up
a) Winn/Lusher email
b) TC/TA issues
c) Helen Rose report
JB wants to know what was done about SD's assertion the HR report was essential
AB I didn't do anything, that was Belinda Crowe's area
JB why?
AB she picked it up
JB were you involved in any discussions as to whether the Helen Rose report should be disclosed to convicted claimants or ongoing prosecutions or to the CCRC
AB no
We move on.
AB no
We move on.
We go to AB's WS which explains her role in the Mediation Scheme
CQR - Case Questionnaire Review (applicant's case)
POIR - Post Office Investigation Report (PO response after investigation)
CRR - Case Review Report - Second Sight's view on both the CQR and POIR (after...
CQR - Case Questionnaire Review (applicant's case)
POIR - Post Office Investigation Report (PO response after investigation)
CRR - Case Review Report - Second Sight's view on both the CQR and POIR (after...
... their own investigation).
JB wants to know what movitated AB's "genuine desire" to get to the bottom of the SPM complaints
AB I wanted to know if there was anything in them
JB wants to know what movitated AB's "genuine desire" to get to the bottom of the SPM complaints
AB I wanted to know if there was anything in them
JB was the Mediation Scheme set up for token payments and apologies to placate the SPMs and make them go away
AB we didn't think we were massively financially exposed
JB that's the answer to a different question. Was it the plan from the beginning of the mediation...
AB we didn't think we were massively financially exposed
JB that's the answer to a different question. Was it the plan from the beginning of the mediation...
... scheme to only offer token payments and apologies?
AB no it was a genuine attempt to investigate those claims and see those outputs
JB so it was always a genuine attempt to get to the truth and pay out whatever compensation might be owed
AB truth was what I was focused on
AB no it was a genuine attempt to investigate those claims and see those outputs
JB so it was always a genuine attempt to get to the truth and pay out whatever compensation might be owed
AB truth was what I was focused on
JB was it always the PO's intention to get to the truth
AB [unequivocal] yes
[JB goes to a doc...]
AB [unequivocal] yes
[JB goes to a doc...]
It is a high level meeting - RW, Ian Henderson, Chris Aujard, Paula Vennells - it is Chris Aujard's note
JB quotes "PV observed that this was a long way from the figures that were in mind when the scheme was established, which were much smaller, and more of the nature of a "token" with an apology."
JB I'll ask you again - did you know the plan of the scheme was "token" payments?
JB I'll ask you again - did you know the plan of the scheme was "token" payments?
AB we weren't talking about compensation when the scheme began. It was about the truth. I wasn't aware of this note till this morning. It was always felt compensation would not be huge.
JB you were the PO lead on this?
AB yes
JB most senior PO person?
AB no - that was General Counsel
JB second most senior
AB yes
JB you were heavily engaged in this. Were you not told that token payments should be the outcome
AB not at the start
AB yes
JB most senior PO person?
AB no - that was General Counsel
JB second most senior
AB yes
JB you were heavily engaged in this. Were you not told that token payments should be the outcome
AB not at the start
JB so how come the CEO is disclosing in Jan 2014 a strategy you were not aware of
AB at the start it was different
JB so all bets were off at the start
AB getting to the truth was essential, so we didn't have an idea of compensation without knowing the truth, when we...
AB at the start it was different
JB so all bets were off at the start
AB getting to the truth was essential, so we didn't have an idea of compensation without knowing the truth, when we...
... realised how much we were in for, things began to change.
SWW when you say the start, what do you mean
AB summer 2013
SWW so by Feb 2014 this is the view of the CEO, a few months later
AB applicants were encouraged to state what they wanted and when they were all in...
SWW when you say the start, what do you mean
AB summer 2013
SWW so by Feb 2014 this is the view of the CEO, a few months later
AB applicants were encouraged to state what they wanted and when they were all in...
... we had a look and it was a lot
SWW so when you knew what you were in for you decided "no"
AB yes
JB did you tell the SPMs this?
AB no
JB was the scheme presented as a compensation scheme for what happened?
AB no - it was to understand the issues and achieve closure
SWW so when you knew what you were in for you decided "no"
AB yes
JB did you tell the SPMs this?
AB no
JB was the scheme presented as a compensation scheme for what happened?
AB no - it was to understand the issues and achieve closure
AB that looked v different for the PO than for the claimants
JB was the strategy of token payments and apologies ever revealed to the chair of the Working Group and Sir Anthony Hooper
AB not in the Working Group meeting, it may have been privately
JB so the PO acted in bad faith
JB was the strategy of token payments and apologies ever revealed to the chair of the Working Group and Sir Anthony Hooper
AB not in the Working Group meeting, it may have been privately
JB so the PO acted in bad faith
AB we started off in good faith
JB well you say that, but Vennells said it was the intention from the outset, but either way, it made the Mediation Scheme a charade
AB we wanted to get closure on those cases and some did, but when we went to some cases there was a huge
JB well you say that, but Vennells said it was the intention from the outset, but either way, it made the Mediation Scheme a charade
AB we wanted to get closure on those cases and some did, but when we went to some cases there was a huge
... expectation gap.
JB was it the intention of the mediation scheme to basically put the PO's case, which was that there was never a problem with the H system and their contracts had never been improperly terminated.
AB I don't think so. I would not have got involved...
JB was it the intention of the mediation scheme to basically put the PO's case, which was that there was never a problem with the H system and their contracts had never been improperly terminated.
AB I don't think so. I would not have got involved...
... if that was the case.
JB was there a document of the POs intention or plans or tactics for the scheme
AB i don't recall it being articulated
[We go to an Alan Bates email to Paula Vennells]
JB was there a document of the POs intention or plans or tactics for the scheme
AB i don't recall it being articulated
[We go to an Alan Bates email to Paula Vennells]
JB was Alan Bates (AB) right?
AB we narrowed the focus
JB was PO trying to stop matters being discussed?
AB it felt like there was a change
JB when Chris Aujard came on board?
AB yes - he wanted to focus on individual cases
JB so less focus on systemic issues
AB I don't think so
AB we narrowed the focus
JB was PO trying to stop matters being discussed?
AB it felt like there was a change
JB when Chris Aujard came on board?
AB yes - he wanted to focus on individual cases
JB so less focus on systemic issues
AB I don't think so
[but then she answers essentially in the affirmative]
We go to an Exec Co team slide deck on the mediation scheme
We go to an Exec Co team slide deck on the mediation scheme
And the problems its got. No "hard power"
JB Is that what the PO wanted? Hard Power?
AB no
JB did you have any input into this?
AB no
JB It's a complaint, isn't it? No hard power. Hostile stakeholders, yet we're paying for it
AB I thought 2S were doing their job
AB no
JB did you have any input into this?
AB no
JB It's a complaint, isn't it? No hard power. Hostile stakeholders, yet we're paying for it
AB I thought 2S were doing their job
JB Susan Crichton set up the scheme, but allowed the independent investigators too much independence
AB no
JB and was forced out of the business
AB yes
JB are you saying what's being expressed here is not yor view?
AB it wasn't
JB you ran the scheme. how was this being
AB no
JB and was forced out of the business
AB yes
JB are you saying what's being expressed here is not yor view?
AB it wasn't
JB you ran the scheme. how was this being
... presented as the internal view?
AB who authored this?
JB that's what we're trying to discover
AB these are not my views
AB who authored this?
JB that's what we're trying to discover
AB these are not my views
JB "working group trying to assert itself" explain?
AB it was a work in progress. when Sir Anthony Hooper (SAH) joined it got some shape
JB vested interests -was that your view
AB depends on vested interests
JB if someone wanted to brief the ExeCo on the progress of the...
AB it was a work in progress. when Sir Anthony Hooper (SAH) joined it got some shape
JB vested interests -was that your view
AB depends on vested interests
JB if someone wanted to brief the ExeCo on the progress of the...
... Mediation Scheme in mid-2014, you are the obvious person to go to.
AB this is not the language I'd use
JB that's a different issue - did anyone come to you and ask you how is the scheme working
AB not that I remember
JB if ExCO was going to get a briefing should they have...
AB this is not the language I'd use
JB that's a different issue - did anyone come to you and ask you how is the scheme working
AB not that I remember
JB if ExCO was going to get a briefing should they have...
... come to you
AB me or someone else
SWW who?
AB Chris Aujard or Belinda Crowe
We take another break.
AB me or someone else
SWW who?
AB Chris Aujard or Belinda Crowe
We take another break.
And we're back!
We go to an internal email re suspense accounts and the PO's determination to keep the info about them hidden.
We go to an internal email re suspense accounts and the PO's determination to keep the info about them hidden.
JB 2S were seeking info on suspense accounts, what was in them and where it went.
This is the response - an attempt to keep the info undisclosed.
JB so what happened to this significant info about suspense accounts
This is the response - an attempt to keep the info undisclosed.
JB so what happened to this significant info about suspense accounts
AB this was a finance issue
JB so nothing to do with you again?
AB no
We move on
JB so nothing to do with you again?
AB no
We move on
To another email about suspense accounts in an email from Ron Warmington
This is the PO response - to withhold information.
JB why was it not appropriate to give 2S the info
AB too broad a request and commercially sensitive
JB this was a potentially serious issue. was it investigated by the PO?
AB no
JB why was it not appropriate to give 2S the info
AB too broad a request and commercially sensitive
JB this was a potentially serious issue. was it investigated by the PO?
AB no
JB do you know why not?
AB no
JB would it not worry you that money from SPMs was going into profit in lost
AB not my area
JB even a non-accountant would know that disputed money might be being added to the PO's P&L, that's serious
AB yes
AB no
JB would it not worry you that money from SPMs was going into profit in lost
AB not my area
JB even a non-accountant would know that disputed money might be being added to the PO's P&L, that's serious
AB yes
JB that's what 2S were saying
AB yes that's what they were asking about
We move on to the Carl Page case RW and AB transcript recording
JB you did not know you were being recorded at the time
AB no I didn't
AB yes that's what they were asking about
We move on to the Carl Page case RW and AB transcript recording
JB you did not know you were being recorded at the time
AB no I didn't
Here's the start of the transcript doc.
JB in summary, RW was discussing his concerns over the prosecution of Carl Page
JB in summary, RW was discussing his concerns over the prosecution of Carl Page
We move to the relevant pars
and more - JB is reading it out
and more...
And more...
We scroll through it.
JB RW was telling you about a clear miscarriage of justice wasn't he?
AB yes he was also saying he hadn't concluded his investigation
JB he was saying this strongly
AB and we were saying give us the info
JB he told you his report was going to be damning
JB RW was telling you about a clear miscarriage of justice wasn't he?
AB yes he was also saying he hadn't concluded his investigation
JB he was saying this strongly
AB and we were saying give us the info
JB he told you his report was going to be damning
AB yes but it was only a hypothesis
JB you sat next to Paula Vennells in parliament in 2015. Parliamentary privilege prevents me from asking you about the individual evidence you gave, but PV has told us in her second WS to this inquiry that at that stage she had seen...
JB you sat next to Paula Vennells in parliament in 2015. Parliamentary privilege prevents me from asking you about the individual evidence you gave, but PV has told us in her second WS to this inquiry that at that stage she had seen...
... NO evidence of any miscarriages of justice.
JB did you brief PV about what RW had said to you about Carl Page
AB no because at that stage we didn't have any evidence, we had a hypothesis that he was working through to a conclusion, so at that point there was none and the...
JB did you brief PV about what RW had said to you about Carl Page
AB no because at that stage we didn't have any evidence, we had a hypothesis that he was working through to a conclusion, so at that point there was none and the...
... process we were working through at that scheme was that we would do the investigation and we'd have a look and then we'd look through it later and in Sep 2014 that happened.
SWW gives the self-incrimination warning to AB. She can ask to decline to answer a question
SWW gives the self-incrimination warning to AB. She can ask to decline to answer a question
... if it might incriminate her in a criminal court. She is legally represented.
Ed Henry KC, for Seema Misra, Janet Skinner, Tracy Felstead et al starts.
EH as you rose higher and higher through the PO...
Ed Henry KC, for Seema Misra, Janet Skinner, Tracy Felstead et al starts.
EH as you rose higher and higher through the PO...
... did it ever occur to you to ask yourself if people had gone to prison and it was totally wrong?
AB no
AB no
Here's Ed, with Parmod Kalia sitting next to him and Jo Hamilton in front.
EH did it ever occur to you, from 2010 onwards that the ghastly prospect of miscarriages of justice was happening on your watch
AB my watch?!
EH did it occur to you that the prosecutorial policy of the PO was sending innocent people to prison
AB no, I trusted due process
AB my watch?!
EH did it occur to you that the prosecutorial policy of the PO was sending innocent people to prison
AB no, I trusted due process
EH there are a number of compelling reasons not to believe your evidence
AB I don't think so
EH the High Court litigation has left you with a credibility problem, hasn't it?
AB because of Mr Justice Fraser's comments
EH not just what the judge said, it's what you said on oath
AB I don't think so
EH the High Court litigation has left you with a credibility problem, hasn't it?
AB because of Mr Justice Fraser's comments
EH not just what the judge said, it's what you said on oath
AB I believed at the time it was correct
EH you are worried that if you now admit that you knew about remote access in 2010, you will be liable for perjury
AB no
EH JB's email to you in 2010
AB I don't remember it
EH he left you a voicemail
AB this should have put you on notice..
EH you are worried that if you now admit that you knew about remote access in 2010, you will be liable for perjury
AB no
EH JB's email to you in 2010
AB I don't remember it
EH he left you a voicemail
AB this should have put you on notice..
... there were potential miscarriages of justice
[sorry that was EH]
AB not at the time - I didn't read it
EH what about the voicemail
AB genuinely don't remember it
EH Genuinely doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence
AB don't remember
EH so grossly incompetent?
[sorry that was EH]
AB not at the time - I didn't read it
EH what about the voicemail
AB genuinely don't remember it
EH Genuinely doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence
AB don't remember
EH so grossly incompetent?
AB not if I didn't see it
[we go to the 2011 email. all these emails were discussed in yesterday's evidence]
AB didn't see the significance of this
EH so incompetence, not dishonesty?
AB not dishonesty
EH the next day you get involved in a cover-up interview
AB it was not a cover
[we go to the 2011 email. all these emails were discussed in yesterday's evidence]
AB didn't see the significance of this
EH so incompetence, not dishonesty?
AB not dishonesty
EH the next day you get involved in a cover-up interview
AB it was not a cover
... up
EH about remote access - the words remote access are actually used by Mark baker and you said it was not possible
AB I said PO cannot do it, later we do discuss Fujitsu's ability to do it
EH you didn't volunteer the info you got from the 2011 Tracy Marshall email
EH about remote access - the words remote access are actually used by Mark baker and you said it was not possible
AB I said PO cannot do it, later we do discuss Fujitsu's ability to do it
EH you didn't volunteer the info you got from the 2011 Tracy Marshall email
... because you didn't appreciate its significance. That's a lie
AB no it's not
EH what about the Winn/Lusher email - you didn't see the significance
AB I forwarded it
EH not asking you about pushing paper - what did you understand at the time
AB that I wanted to find out more
AB no it's not
EH what about the Winn/Lusher email - you didn't see the significance
AB I forwarded it
EH not asking you about pushing paper - what did you understand at the time
AB that I wanted to find out more
EH well, what had you found out by 2014?
AB all info about H IT I relied on from Fujitsu and my internal team
EH you are minimising your level of understanding before this inquiry
AB no
We go to a new doc - shows Horizon integrity issues are being dealt with by AB
AB all info about H IT I relied on from Fujitsu and my internal team
EH you are minimising your level of understanding before this inquiry
AB no
We go to a new doc - shows Horizon integrity issues are being dealt with by AB
AB That's loose wording, that's not my responsibility.
EH that's another lie
[we go to another document]
"any mention of IT fault should be dealt with by Angela"
EH you had carriage of this
EH that's another lie
[we go to another document]
"any mention of IT fault should be dealt with by Angela"
EH you had carriage of this
EH PV knew you were a safe pair of hands, don't admit remote access, don't put things in writing, keep on message, spin the company lines. you would do anything to protect the PO
AB no that's not right
We go to the 2015 Panorama
AB no that's not right
We go to the 2015 Panorama
There's a line from the transcript of the programme - JS is @johnsweeneyroar and RR is Richard Roll
@johnsweeneyroar This is AB's response
@johnsweeneyroar EH wants to know why she wanted to know about positioning the company's line rather than wondering if RR might be right
AB wanted to no the implications of what was being said
EH you knew remote access was possible
AB definition of remote access changed
AB wanted to no the implications of what was being said
EH you knew remote access was possible
AB definition of remote access changed
@johnsweeneyroar ... over the years and I relied on legal re prosecutions
EH you were suppressing the truth, deliberately
AB no
EH you were letting innocent people go to prison on the back of a flawed computer system
AB no
EH the SPMs ignorance of this was your strength
AB no
EH you were suppressing the truth, deliberately
AB no
EH you were letting innocent people go to prison on the back of a flawed computer system
AB no
EH the SPMs ignorance of this was your strength
AB no
EH raises Parmod Kalia's case. Parmod is sitting next to him. His lip is trembling.
EH "He now lives alone in a community centre"
This is Parmod's story (actually it's way worse than I wrote it here) postofficetrial.com/2021/05/two-mo…
EH "He now lives alone in a community centre"
This is Parmod's story (actually it's way worse than I wrote it here) postofficetrial.com/2021/05/two-mo…
EH raises the letter AB wrote to Parmod when he saw the Panorama, realised he wasn't alone and wrote to Paula Vennells asking for an apology. After this reply Parmod tried twice to take his own life.
EH how can you say this when you knew about remote access
AB you'll see from the next par I do say Post Office can do balancing transactions
AB you'll see from the next par I do say Post Office can do balancing transactions
EH asks her to confirm she had no inkling there was a plan to exit 2S from the Mediation Scheme
AB no there were discussions
EH brings up a 2013 document in which AB states 2S are going to be exited from the scheme
AB no there were discussions
EH brings up a 2013 document in which AB states 2S are going to be exited from the scheme
EH you were lying yesterday weren;t you?
AB no
EH and you're lying now as you have been throughout your evidence
AB no I'm not
EH do you have any idea of the suffering you have caused
AB acknowledges there has been suffering, denies she caused it
LUNCH
AB no
EH and you're lying now as you have been throughout your evidence
AB no I'm not
EH do you have any idea of the suffering you have caused
AB acknowledges there has been suffering, denies she caused it
LUNCH
Tim Moloney KC is asking questions. He goes straight to the briefing pack the PO prepared for a meeting with MPs, during which AB was asked to talk about some SPM cases, including James Arbuthnot MP's constituent Jo Hamilton who happens to be sitting next to Mr Moloney
AB confirms it was supposed to be an open and transparent engagement with MPs
TM brings up some notes AB used - an aide memoire on JH's case... it's a timeline from the security/legal team
TM brings up some notes AB used - an aide memoire on JH's case... it's a timeline from the security/legal team
TM takes her to Graham Brander's investigation report into JH's case which shows audit figures. The auditor records a £61 deficit which appeared overnight. And it contains the phrase "unable to find any evidence of theft"
TM says that this info did not find its way into your aide memoire for JA, who wanted to know ALL about JH's case.
AB it was a snapshot
TM lists all the wrongs - none of these were in here
AB no but I don't know if saw it
TM you said you read the investigation report
AB it was a snapshot
TM lists all the wrongs - none of these were in here
AB no but I don't know if saw it
TM you said you read the investigation report
AB I was given files
TM so what did you read
AB the audit and a summary, I presume, I can't remember. I tried to lift the key points
TM did you ignore this very important issue because it was not helpful to the PO
AB no
SWW that's what happened tho isn't it
AB I am not sure what
TM so what did you read
AB the audit and a summary, I presume, I can't remember. I tried to lift the key points
TM did you ignore this very important issue because it was not helpful to the PO
AB no
SWW that's what happened tho isn't it
AB I am not sure what
... files I saw or who provided me with the files
TM you only presented information which supported the PO
AB had I seen what you showed me I would have included it
[unbelievable, astounding incompetence OR she was not given the full picture by someone OR she's lying]
TM you only presented information which supported the PO
AB had I seen what you showed me I would have included it
[unbelievable, astounding incompetence OR she was not given the full picture by someone OR she's lying]
We move on to the Gareth Jenkins/Helen Rose exchange which causes concern to Helen Rose that the incomplete picture is being given to the courts
Moloney is reading Rose's response.
TM what in those words did NOT ring alarm bells for you
AB it was up to HR to raise this. It didn't have alarm bells for me as HR would deal with it in her reporting line.
TM surely the alarm bell is your responsibility too?
TM what in those words did NOT ring alarm bells for you
AB it was up to HR to raise this. It didn't have alarm bells for me as HR would deal with it in her reporting line.
TM surely the alarm bell is your responsibility too?
AB it didn't ring any alarm bells
TM should it have done
AB now I would look at it differently
TM let's see what else might not cause alarm bells...
[he takes her to the email Helen Rose taking the problem back to AB]
TM should it have done
AB now I would look at it differently
TM let's see what else might not cause alarm bells...
[he takes her to the email Helen Rose taking the problem back to AB]
AB it wasn't for me to do anything
TM were you just wilfully blind
AB no - I wish I had the insight to read this as I am now. My response would be very different
TM so you understood reversals could be performed by the system, not the operator.
AB yes
TM that it wouldn't show..
TM were you just wilfully blind
AB no - I wish I had the insight to read this as I am now. My response would be very different
TM so you understood reversals could be performed by the system, not the operator.
AB yes
TM that it wouldn't show..
... the difference to the operator.
AB yes
TM you told the Horizon Issues trial [part of Bates v Post Office] that the change request need to separate this out did not happen
AB yes
TM takes her to the Panorama meeting transcript
AB yes
TM you told the Horizon Issues trial [part of Bates v Post Office] that the change request need to separate this out did not happen
AB yes
TM takes her to the Panorama meeting transcript
Moloney reads from AvdB's section.
TM why not tell them about Lepton - the reversal issue
AB it can be seen
TM why not tell them about Lepton - the reversal issue
AB it can be seen
TM and you maintain that every keystroke can be recorded by Horizon and that was not true and the judge found against you on that point.
AB I think I got confused
TM yeah. why not mention it then. why not tell Panorama about Lepton
AB because we weren't talking about individual..
AB I think I got confused
TM yeah. why not mention it then. why not tell Panorama about Lepton
AB because we weren't talking about individual..
... cases.
TM was it more that it was distracting from your very clear picture?
AB Lepton? no it highlighted that it wasn't obvious the system had generated the reversal at the time so i think that for me was important we understood that at the time.
TM was it more that it was distracting from your very clear picture?
AB Lepton? no it highlighted that it wasn't obvious the system had generated the reversal at the time so i think that for me was important we understood that at the time.
We move Catriona Watt for the NFSP
CW you had a period in your career between 1996 to 2001 when you recruited SPMs
AB yes
CW so when Sir Anthony Hooper said it didn't make sense that soo many honest people would term to crime, do you agree it didn't make sense
CW you had a period in your career between 1996 to 2001 when you recruited SPMs
AB yes
CW so when Sir Anthony Hooper said it didn't make sense that soo many honest people would term to crime, do you agree it didn't make sense
AB no I had direct experience - pre-Horizon - of SPMs thieving
CW despite evidence you let prosecutions carry on regardless
AB I wasn't involved in prosecutions
CW your evidence "there are none so blind who cannot see"
AB not intentionally. I do accept there are things I missed.
CW that was wilful
AB no
AB I wasn't involved in prosecutions
CW your evidence "there are none so blind who cannot see"
AB not intentionally. I do accept there are things I missed.
CW that was wilful
AB no
CW as Lord Arbuthnot said, 2S were uncovering something which created an existential threat to the PO
AB not my intention
CW you were complicit in a conspiracy to lie to people
AB no
CW responsible for the lie that there was nothing wrong with Horizon - a lie propagated to...
AB not my intention
CW you were complicit in a conspiracy to lie to people
AB no
CW responsible for the lie that there was nothing wrong with Horizon - a lie propagated to...
... MPs, gov ministers, civil servants, the NFSP, CWU, courts, 2S, the Working Group, BBC, C4, Computer Weekly, Nick Wallis and anyone else who ever asked weren't you?
AB no
CW it was absolutely necessary that organisations believed that lie
AB no
AB no
CW it was absolutely necessary that organisations believed that lie
AB no
Now Gareth Jenkins' barristers asks a question or two.
Don't know her name so going to call her GJ
Don't know her name so going to call her GJ
GJ takes us back to the Gj/HR correspondence
She says GJ provides some explanation you've already been taken to
Then we go to the HR concern about these logs being used in evidence
GJ responds about making it relatively simple to effect the change and address her concern
So GJ is telling HR there is a relatively simple process to effect.
AB yes
And is your evidence that despite the simplicity and the offer itself, it was not implemented
AB don't know
AB yes
And is your evidence that despite the simplicity and the offer itself, it was not implemented
AB don't know
BREAK
Then Sam Stein KC for 100+ SPMs starting in a few minutes time for 45 mins to the close of play
Then Sam Stein KC for 100+ SPMs starting in a few minutes time for 45 mins to the close of play
[Lowlight of the day for me so far is that when news of Martin Griffiths decision to walk in front of a bus reached the Post Office, the first thing the then Director of Communications @markdavies67 suggested was breifing a media lawyer.]
Okay we're back. Sam Stein KC has raised the helpline.
Says SPMs were told they had to make good shortfalls by the helpline. Where did that come from?
AB the knowledge base
SS scripts?
AB not intended to be
Says SPMs were told they had to make good shortfalls by the helpline. Where did that come from?
AB the knowledge base
SS scripts?
AB not intended to be
SS what about being told they were the only ones
AB no that was not in there. I've heard it over the years but I've never seen it written anywhere
SS 43% of our clients say they were told to pay up. 48% of our clients were told they were the only ones. That's fraud, isn't it?
AB no that was not in there. I've heard it over the years but I've never seen it written anywhere
SS 43% of our clients say they were told to pay up. 48% of our clients were told they were the only ones. That's fraud, isn't it?
AB the detail of the conversations would be different
SS sometimes its fraud, sometimes its not?
AB its not fraud
SS if there is a £50k shortfall and they don't know where it came from, but they're told to pay up, that's fraud, isn't it?
AB I'd expect us to investigate that...
SS sometimes its fraud, sometimes its not?
AB its not fraud
SS if there is a £50k shortfall and they don't know where it came from, but they're told to pay up, that's fraud, isn't it?
AB I'd expect us to investigate that...
... to see where it came from. But we didn;t have that investigation function over the years
SS but is that fair
AB my expectation is they would get some help to see where that came from
SS you said this right to demand money from SPMs cam from legal - is that what they told you?
SS but is that fair
AB my expectation is they would get some help to see where that came from
SS you said this right to demand money from SPMs cam from legal - is that what they told you?
... that you could demand money irrespective of the contract?
AB no
SS what did they say then?
AB the approach was that they could be held liable for losses except those caused by carelessness negligence or error
SS yes but that wasn't happening.
AB it would have been in line...
AB no
SS what did they say then?
AB the approach was that they could be held liable for losses except those caused by carelessness negligence or error
SS yes but that wasn't happening.
AB it would have been in line...
... with the contract.
[this is blatantly untrue - we saw the Rod Williams emails and the one concerning Graham Ward making it plain it was for the SPM to prove it wasn't their fault]
[this is blatantly untrue - we saw the Rod Williams emails and the one concerning Graham Ward making it plain it was for the SPM to prove it wasn't their fault]
SS what system were the knowledge base articles for the helpline stored?
AB doesn't know
SS you're in charge of the helpline
AB don't know where it is
Takes her to the case of Jennifer O'Dell
AB doesn't know
SS you're in charge of the helpline
AB don't know where it is
Takes her to the case of Jennifer O'Dell
Helpline logs
SS how many helpline employees in 2009
AB about 50
SS so multiple people likely to tell her to pay up
AB says what should have happened
SS scripts from the helpline telling people to pay up came from the Post Office
SS says Mrs O'Dell claims that AB's attitude towards her was..
AB about 50
SS so multiple people likely to tell her to pay up
AB says what should have happened
SS scripts from the helpline telling people to pay up came from the Post Office
SS says Mrs O'Dell claims that AB's attitude towards her was..
... bullying and intimidating and threatened her with losing her house if she didn't pay up. Mrs O'Dell was ostracised by her community, and has PTSD and night terrors as a result of her experience.
AB says Mrs O'Dell is mistaken about their encounter and she has witnesses
AB says Mrs O'Dell is mistaken about their encounter and she has witnesses
... and that if she'd behaved like that it would have been escalated.
SS takes her to the High Court judgment where Mr Justice Fraser says he would not believe AB's testimony unless it was backed by documentary evidence. Says she lied to the High Court, so when it comes to AB's
SS takes her to the High Court judgment where Mr Justice Fraser says he would not believe AB's testimony unless it was backed by documentary evidence. Says she lied to the High Court, so when it comes to AB's
... word against his client's, it's difficult to believe AB. Asks if there was any PO investigation into AB after the judge found she tried to mislead him.
AB no
SS no chat, no conversation with the boss?
AB np
SS did you get your bonus that year in 2019
AB yes
AB no
SS no chat, no conversation with the boss?
AB np
SS did you get your bonus that year in 2019
AB yes
SS despite you lying to the High Court you got your bonus?
AB yes
SS how were the helpline people trained - how did they learn to get cash out the SPMs?
AB training in their role and ongoing throughout
SS how do think it affected people - SPMs scrabbling around for cash...
AB yes
SS how were the helpline people trained - how did they learn to get cash out the SPMs?
AB training in their role and ongoing throughout
SS how do think it affected people - SPMs scrabbling around for cash...
... borrowing money from loan sharks, raiding their childrens' piggy banks... you've not taken responsibility for very much in this inquiry - do you want to take any responsibility for what the PO did to people
AB i missed some things
SS People are being told to pay up
AB i missed some things
SS People are being told to pay up
... when they are reporting Horizon faults. How does that help identify faults.
AB it should have been escalated and often was, in the case of Mrs O'Dell she should have got help
SS it was more than Mrs O'Dell - I quoted the statistics of our clients - who should have been...
AB it should have been escalated and often was, in the case of Mrs O'Dell she should have got help
SS it was more than Mrs O'Dell - I quoted the statistics of our clients - who should have been...
... in charge of the helpline.
SS COO or CEO, or who?
AB it changed over the years
SS raises the branch closure programmes - where there targets?
AB at a higher level yes - there was compensation
SS only if closed by agreement - what if a branch failed an audit and was closed
SS COO or CEO, or who?
AB it changed over the years
SS raises the branch closure programmes - where there targets?
AB at a higher level yes - there was compensation
SS only if closed by agreement - what if a branch failed an audit and was closed
SS then the PO did not have to pay compensation, did it?
AB no
SS and if a branch was closed in a small community area and if the PO could blame the SPM, that's helpful to the PO because then the PO can deflect the community anger onto the PO
AB we would have looked to re...
AB no
SS and if a branch was closed in a small community area and if the PO could blame the SPM, that's helpful to the PO because then the PO can deflect the community anger onto the PO
AB we would have looked to re...
... establish it in that area because we had certain access criteria to comply with
SS if a branch was closed for a failed audit, they could try and recover the deficit through the civil courts couldn't they. So - they get a branch closed without having to pay compensation...
SS if a branch was closed for a failed audit, they could try and recover the deficit through the civil courts couldn't they. So - they get a branch closed without having to pay compensation...
... and they get money back from a shortfall which wasn't the SPMs fault.
AB no
SS did you get a bonus for achieving branch closures
AB only at a certain level - we had to open and find new branches so it's the opposite of what you say
SS doesn't sound like the opposite...
AB no
SS did you get a bonus for achieving branch closures
AB only at a certain level - we had to open and find new branches so it's the opposite of what you say
SS doesn't sound like the opposite...
SS ... you got a bonus for closing branches
AB only part of it
SS takes her to her WS section
AB only part of it
SS takes her to her WS section
SS When did you become aware of "rumblings" about Horizon?
AB 2011. Prior to that some rumblings
SWW you said yesterday in 2004
AB yes
SS lists the "rumblings" MPs, JFSA, media etc etc
AB yes
SS worrying for the PO. You as a business were dependent on Horizon
AB yes
AB 2011. Prior to that some rumblings
SWW you said yesterday in 2004
AB yes
SS lists the "rumblings" MPs, JFSA, media etc etc
AB yes
SS worrying for the PO. You as a business were dependent on Horizon
AB yes
SS where are the PO documents saying gosh what are we doing to people? Think of the harm we might be doing? Their mental health? Nothing. Was this about the culture of the PO and the brand and damn the consequences.
AB that's why we brought in 2S
SS goes back to the helpline
AB that's why we brought in 2S
SS goes back to the helpline
SS what did you do to change the helpline?
AB i initiated the Branch Support Programme which changed the helpline
SS did you put the serving the SPMs on notice that there was a problem
AB no
AB i initiated the Branch Support Programme which changed the helpline
SS did you put the serving the SPMs on notice that there was a problem
AB no
SS did the PO try to outspend the SPMs during the High Court
AB no
SS Mr Justice Fraser commented on your approach - was it to outspend the claimants
AB not my understanding
SS let's look at this legal strategy document for the PO
AB no
SS Mr Justice Fraser commented on your approach - was it to outspend the claimants
AB not my understanding
SS let's look at this legal strategy document for the PO
SS this was the strategy, wasn't it
AB Not when we started but it got like that
SS you say you were conscious of the public purse
AB I was
SS did you say to the legal teams at the High Court - woah this is costing too much, think of the public purse
AB not for me to say
AB Not when we started but it got like that
SS you say you were conscious of the public purse
AB I was
SS did you say to the legal teams at the High Court - woah this is costing too much, think of the public purse
AB not for me to say
And that's it. Over for the weekend.
Sam Stein KC managing to ram home a huge amount in 45 minutes at the end. AB denying everything, but her credibility is surely shot.
We reconvene 9.45am on Tuesday.
Thanks for reading. Come and see us in Bishops Stortford or Southend. Huge
Sam Stein KC managing to ram home a huge amount in 45 minutes at the end. AB denying everything, but her credibility is surely shot.
We reconvene 9.45am on Tuesday.
Thanks for reading. Come and see us in Bishops Stortford or Southend. Huge
venues... both half empty at the moment!
Others, weirdly, are selling fast. Guildford will likely go, as will Walton and Shoreham. Hailsham and possibly Chelmsford are going fast.
Come see Parmod in Hayes! That's not doing well either...
postofficescandal.uk/live-events/
Others, weirdly, are selling fast. Guildford will likely go, as will Walton and Shoreham. Hailsham and possibly Chelmsford are going fast.
Come see Parmod in Hayes! That's not doing well either...
postofficescandal.uk/live-events/
Or if you want to, please do make a tiny donation to join my newsletter.
postofficescandal.uk/donate/
postofficescandal.uk/donate/
Or just donate to the Horizon Scandal Fund, a charity dedicated to helping Subpostmasters/Post Office managers/assistants and/or their families affected by the Horizon scandal. We've made grants for...
postofficescandal.uk/horizon-scanda…
postofficescandal.uk/horizon-scanda…
... respite breaks, counselling, social occasions, medical care, rent arrears, hardship issues, furniture etc. It's all confidential.
I'll get a report up about today asap. Have a good weekend.
I'll get a report up about today asap. Have a good weekend.
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