You know, we tried. We tried gentle exercise in bouts of 30 s and resting after. And yet, people keep telling us about how exercise is beneficial. Will you ever just listen to patients? Find a cure for PEM and the secondary deconditioning isn't an issue anymore. 🧵
It's just so super patronizing. I learned to run by increments of 30s. I know how to train and what DOMS feels like. PEM is a totally different story. And once again, for those in the back, the decline in function was sudden and not gradual!
I really thought that there was now a consensus in the field regarding exercise training in PEM, but apparently people keep trying to push their outdated ideas.
And once again: the dsq is NOT a good measure for PEM. Check it for yourself. Does this describe your symptoms?
(the full definition of PEM is: increase in symptoms or new symptoms 12-72 hrs after physical or mental exercise. The dsq doesn't capture the flu like symptoms, or that you can feel totally ok during and right after exercise, but like crap after 12-hrs.)
So of course this muddles the data. There are lots of people who will score 'PEM' on the dsq but don't have the 'increase in symptoms or new symptoms 12-72 hrs after physical or mental exercise.'. and then it might look like exercise is good for PEM. 😭 Garbage in garbage out
WE NEED BETTER QUESTIONNAIRES. why do we keep using flawed instruments? We need to design and develop better ones in close collaboration with patients. (The funcap is a great example of what happens when you really take into account what patients actually experience)
Oh and before I forget, I had pretty mild ME when I started the exercise program outlined in the middle column, but after 5 weeks of that, I was basically housebound.
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The most important lesson from Appelman et al is not that everyone with PEM should get a two day CPET with muscle biopsies, but that we should listen to patients. 🧵
ME patients have been telling their drs for years about how exercise makes them ill. Usually this is a reason to be referred to psychology because your relationship to your body needs to be restored. This therapy resulted in people becoming bedbound.
Here's a pic of what happens in our muscles after exercise. Necrosis, muscle cells die, way more than in healthy controls. The magenta blobs are normal muscle fibers and the big spotted pale part is the necrosis. (Fortunately, they also found that the body does try to repair it)
De les die we van Appelman et al. moeten leren is niet dat iedereen met postexertionele malaise nu een tweedaagse fietstest met spierbiopten moet krijgen, maar dat je je patiënt moet geloven. 🧵
Allereerst: het onderzoek van Appelman en co is echt prachtig. De spierpijn die mensen met LC na inspanning hebben is niet gewoon een beetje spierpijn, maar spier die doodgaat doordat er van alles misgaat in de spier.
@drMHellemons legt de vinger precies op de zere plek: er zijn wel degelijk afwijkingen als er gekeken wordt.
Is dit de eerste keer dat we afwijkingen vinden bij mensen met long covid of ME? Nee. En toch denken de meeste artsen dat het tussen de oren zit.
Good morning! Roger Paredes kicks off with a brief overview of what we already know about LC. It's all info we know but which would be revolutionary in the Netherlands, look at that first slide.
Long Covid is not going away and the sequelae are very serious.
Published data from their own LC cohort. He mentioned that he also suspect phrenic involvement, not just the n vagus.
This talk by @neurostingl needs to be broadcast on national media on repeat. It went super fast so am now working from my notes. Super practical and pragmatic advice on how to prescribe the most common offlabel options for long covid.
#LongCovidKongress #LCK2023
Dr stingl Vienna (neurologist who treats ME/CFS)
Happy to share his slides (we can email the organization)
Context: is very important when talking about off label prescribing. LC is very heterogenous. His pts have often had full workups.
Things to take into account
Thorough documentation is very important.
Usually very cheap and well known drugs. If there is no effect then he discontinues it. You have to see pts very regularly.
(Q: how do you do this in housebound pts @neurostingl ? )