Glenn Profile picture
Jun 22, 2024 17 tweets 6 min read Read on X
The EV sector industrial subsidy figures released last week by @CSIS are inflated by at least ~$80B, mainly from poor assumptions made to calculate the NEV Sales Tax Exemption that (i) don't pass the sanity check and (ii) are out-of-whack with disclosed actuals amounts.

🧵 https://www.csis.org/blogs/trustee-china-hand/chinese-ev-dilemma-subsidized-yet-striking
As disclosed in the CSIS analysis, the Sales Tax Exemption assumption is based on a very simple premise:

To incent purchases of NEVs (new energy vehicles i.e. BEVs+PHEVs) over ICE vehicles, most NEVs are exempt from the sales tax exemption, which is assumed to be 10%. Image
$39.5B of Sales Tax Exemption in '23 thus implies that there were at least $395B worth of NEVs sold in China based on CSIS assumptions.

Since we know how many NEVs were sold (~7.9M passenger and ~0.3M commercial), we can back out the implied average selling price (ASP).Image
CSIS discloses ASP assumption of ¥1.2M for large commercial vehicles. This would imply ~$54B in commercial vehicle NEV sales in '23, leaving $341B for light passenger vehicles.

Based on ~7.9M passenger NEVs sold in '23, this implies an ASP of $43k (¥310k). Image
This does not pass the sanity check, nor is it consistent with CSIS' own assumptions (passenger NEV ASP is ¥250k).

e.g. the best-selling models in China are compact and mid-size NEVs with ASPs in the ¥120-250k range.
In any case, we can also cross-check this assumption with actual disclosed figures.

The Ministry of Finance disclosed last year cumulative NEV Sales Tax Exemptions through 2022 of ~¥200 billion (~$29B) + another ~¥115 billion (~$16B) in 2023.

This suggests the CSIS estimate for Salex Tax Exemptions is overstated by 2.5-2.6xhttps://www.gov.cn/zhengce/202306/content_6888094.htm
Factoring in more accurate assumptions that are more in line with these actuals, I have done my own analysis on Chinese EV sector assumptions and arrived at ~$147B, ~$83B lower than the CSIS estimate. Note: the difference in Sales Tax Assumption estimate accounts for ~$64B of the difference. The remaining difference comes from the Buyer's Rebate which is also overestimated, although much more in the ballpark. I have copied assumptions for infrastructure subsidies, R&D and government procurement.
Based on this, more interesting is what happens going forward IMO.

Per below, the NEV Sales Tax Exemption has been extended for 4 more years, but like the Buyer's Rebate before gradually eases out.

For example, the maximum exemption halves in 2026 to ¥15k per NEV.
https://www.gov.cn/zhengce/202306/content_6888094.htm
https://www.adamasintel.com/china-ev-buyers-get-four-more-years-tax-breaks-as-us-incentives-fall-flat/
I've taken the EV sector subsidies analysis out through 2030 assuming the Sales Tax Exemption is retired after this current program ends.

As you can see avg. subsidies per vehicle continue to fall gradually, from $2,700 in '23 to <$200 by '30. Image
If we take the model even further out to 2040, China will have spent ~$330B in total subsidies on the EV sector.

Paired against ~704M cumulative NEV sales through 2040, this would average out cumulatively to a subsidy of ~$468 per vehicle.
I think the lesson here is pretty clear and does not need overstated subsidy estimates to make the point.

The key to any successful industrial policy subsidy program is providing support to a domestic industry to achieve scale and profitability so subsidies can be gradually withdrawn over time.

The last point is key. If industrial policy and subsidies cannot achieve industry scale and self-sustaining profitability, you end up with a non-competitive sector that continues to suck up fiscal resources indefinitely.
The development of the Chinese EV sector has followed this principle.

Subsidies per car have fallen from >$20k per vehicle to ~$2k per vehicle over the last decade and will be effectively completed by 2027. Image
The question for Western policymakers is not about the need to develop and retain an EV industry using industrial policy and subsidies, like China has done. That should be pretty clear, the answer is yes.

It is about execution of said industrial policy. Specifically, are we seeing aggregate subsidies per NEV go down over time at a satisfactory pace?
Remember there are other new industries beyond EVs.

That China is a few years away from withdrawing subsidies from EVs just means that those fiscal resources will soon be available to support development of other future industries.

If one is stuck subsidizing old industries indefinitely this just means less fiscal resources available to spur development of new ones.
This is not the first time I’ve seen highly questionable assumptions in CSIS analysis on China.

Its analysis of COMAC development costs was even more egregious and off by 6-14x.

These numbers influence policy and decision-making. Isn’t it important that we get them right?
Bad analysis does enormous disservice to our policymaking.

13 years ago, Chinese NEV industry subsidies were scoffed at as “wasted investment”.

Instead of breeding complacency, maybe we should have taken them seriously. Catching up will be that much harder as a result.
Another interesting datapoint from this analysis:

~2/3rds of NEV sector subsidies were focused aimed at stimulating the consumer demand side with <1/3rd focused on production.

Nascent industries require coordinated stimulation of both supply and demand.

This also contradicts prevailing narratives about how China "focuses disproportionately on the supply-side at the expense of households/consumers".Image

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More from @GlennLuk

Feb 19
Remember all the people who said China wouldn’t be able to make the shift away from the real estate-driven economy?
This transition was possible in part because of the continuously underrated migrant “floating” population.
16 years ago in the wake of the GFC, they gathered their things from the export factory dormitories where they lived and moved to dormitories at residential and local infrastructure construction sites all around the country.
Read 18 tweets
Feb 14
There's of course a certain level of irony with rumors of 50/50 JV with TSMC being considered with "tech transfer" when juxtaposed next to complaints about China's mandated use of 50/50 JVs and tech transfer, e.g. in the automobile sector in the 90s and 2000s.
Instead of correctly viewing it dispassionately as a rather effective structure to transfer tacit knowledge in a "learn by doing" activity like manufacturing, the 50/50 JV structure itself was demonized and associated with allegations of IP theft and unfair trade practices.
This negative association with China is perhaps a key reason why it has taken so long for the structure to be seriously considered in the U.S. despite making a ton of sense.

But now that we seem to be crossing this psychological barrier, it is important to keep in mind some of the actual lessons learned from China's rather effective use of 50/50 joint ventures and technology transfer.
Read 16 tweets
Feb 7
Rising U.S. goods trade deficit is (in part) a mirror of the rising power and profitability of U.S. MNCs that generate large profits offshore that are accumulated in tax havens.

You can see this by walking through the balance of payments.
Everyone knows that the U.S. goods deficit has been growing.

The CSIS (Pettis/Setser) explanation is that this reflects imbalances in the global economy, e.g. China “overcapacity”.

The problem as I have been saying is that the goods trade is only a subset of trade.
When a U.S. MNC like Apple sells an iPhone in China, most of the value is in intangible technology and brand.

Chinese households send money to Apple. The trade happens in China because the phone is manufactured there.

So most of the purchase price does not hit the goods trade. Image
Image
Read 20 tweets
Jan 31
This key chart from @SemiAnalysis_ appears to have been the key source for claims of "50,000 Hoppers" and more detailed disclosure on their CapEx buildup analysis ("$1.3B").

But the table has errors/inconsistencies. More significantly, key assumptions don't pass sanity checks. https://semianalysis.com/2025/01/31/deepseek-debates/
1⃣ First thing you might notice is that it says 60,000 in the Total column.

But the A100s aren't "Hoppers". So the 50,000 is just the last three columns.

Ok, so far so good. Image
This is where it starts to get confusing.

The Total column only seems to SUM the first three columns.

Also "ASP" and "per GPU" are average numbers, so you cannot just sum it up. You need to do a weighted average. So the Total figures make no sense. Image
Read 32 tweets
Jan 29
One focus area for DeepSeek was going "lower level" with PTX.

Here's a nice explainer on CUDA/PTX 👇.

While this is an admittedly arcane/technical subject, it actually provides critical insights into:

1⃣ the development cost question
2⃣ export controls
3⃣ future trajectories
First some quick background: PTX is a low-level coding language analogous to Assembly.

This is "deep" software engineering: you are now talking in the native language of the machines, with the thinnest of abstraction layers.

I discussed more here, too:

To help visualize:

The next level down from PTX/Assembly would be to view it all as a string of numbers e.g. the Matrix.

In modern semiconductor-based computing, it'd be a string of 0s and 1s, a.k.a. "binary" to accord with the physical on/off nature of electricity and circuits.
Read 22 tweets
Jan 28
If people freaked out about DeepSeek wait until they hear about how it is scaling inference.
“Third of the cost” is

1) Likely conservative, and

2) Didn’t require EUV
DeepSeek will increase demand for chips because of Jevon’s Paradox, yes.

But whose chips?
Read 32 tweets

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