Sigh.
Ok, so for one, it is: ἢ τὰν ἢ ἐπὶ τᾶς
(Plut. Mor. 241f)*
"With this or on this."
Because Plutarch wrote in Greek and not in Latin.
His Latin isn't even a precise translation, as Plutarch leaves out the world shield (though that is the sense). 1/
Ok, so for one, it is: ἢ τὰν ἢ ἐπὶ τᾶς
(Plut. Mor. 241f)*
"With this or on this."
Because Plutarch wrote in Greek and not in Latin.
His Latin isn't even a precise translation, as Plutarch leaves out the world shield (though that is the sense). 1/
Funnily enough, a Latin author - Valerius Maximus (first cent. AD) - does mention this saying, but phrases it differently, ""monebantur ut aut vivi cum armis in conspectum earum venirent aut mortui in armis referrentur." (Val. Max. 2.7e.2) 2/
'They [the mothers] admonished them that they [the sons] ought come into their sight living with their weapons [=shields] or else slain be carried back on their weapons."
So there is a way to give this saying in actual from-the-sources Latin, but it isn't the quote he gives. 3/
So there is a way to give this saying in actual from-the-sources Latin, but it isn't the quote he gives. 3/
Finally, as a rendering of the basic idea into Latin, @latinedisce has made a basic vocabulary error - the shield in question (clear in the full aphorism in Plutarch) is the ἀσπίς (the hoplite's round shield), the Latin for which is clipeus (or clupeus) not scutum. 4/
Greek and Latin have more than one word for shield, but they match up:
small round shield - Greek πέλτη, Latin caetra
large round shield - Greek ἀσπίς, Latin clipeus/clupeus
oval shield - Greek θυρεός, Latin scutum
Ancient authors are generally particular about these words. 5/
small round shield - Greek πέλτη, Latin caetra
large round shield - Greek ἀσπίς, Latin clipeus/clupeus
oval shield - Greek θυρεός, Latin scutum
Ancient authors are generally particular about these words. 5/
So to sum up: this saying is in the wrong language, does not precisely translate the original language into Latin, does not use the Latin author who does relate this saying, but does introduce a vocabulary error few ancient authors would make.
6/10, see me after class. /end
6/10, see me after class. /end
Addendum: There is a variant reading of Plutarch's Greek here - the Loeb (Babbit, 1931) has the text I've given above, which seems to be the most common, but the Teubner (Bernadakis, 1889) reads ἢ ταύταν ἢ ἐπὶ ταύτας.
The translation is unchanged.
The translation is unchanged.
I don't know the reason for the variant reading and I don't have an apparatus criticus for this passage to hand to check.
Anyway, I look forward to him going on next about how 'woke professors' and the 'academic world' don't want you to learn Latin.
We do want you to learn Latin. But we also would like you to learn something accurate about ancient cultures and literature (and also maybe Greek).
We do want you to learn Latin. But we also would like you to learn something accurate about ancient cultures and literature (and also maybe Greek).
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