Thread by @crazyjane13

Good morning, folks! Time for another day of #DeemingvPesutto.

First up will be the continuation of Pesutto's cross-examination.

@threadreaderapp unroll please

Chrysanthou asks if Pesutto had been aware there had been "some" mention of Deeming in connection with the rally.

Pesutto corrects her. There had been numerous mentions. #DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto clarifies that the concern of the Party was that media attention was going to zero in on Deeming. #DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou suggests the only reason the media ever mentioned Deeming was due to Pesutto's press release.

Pesutto rejects that.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou has completely dismissed the social media furore that had erupted long before Pesutto's statement, as well as the newspaper article that had come out on the afternoon of the rally that linked Deeming with the rally and the Nazi presence. #DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou asks what specific conduct of KJK Pesutto expected Deeming to condemn.

Pesutto refers to the "champagne" video but says it was also about her association with KJK. #DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou suggests Deeming had no knowledge of the matters raised by Pesutto in the 19/3/23 meeting, and therefore it was understandable that Deeming didn't immediately condemn it.

Pesutto says Deeming didn't dispute the facts presented to her. #DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou now states that the material in the dossier linking KJK to far-right extremism is wrong!
#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto is pushing back. He says Deeming was shown the material, and never disputed the probity of the material. #DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou suggests that Deeming was never shown any documents. Pesutto rejects that.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: Deeming said in the meeting she was "happy to condemn that".

#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto said he was of the belief that Deeming had spoken generally, but that she was reluctant to specifically condemn KJK - and that was vindicated in her statement less than 24 hours later that they (the rally organisers) had "done nothing wrong". #DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou puts to Pesutto that Deeming was not given any draft wording of condemnation.

(I do think that "I condemn KJK in terms of her association with far-right extremism" is a statement that hardly needs to be explained to someone.)
#DeemingvPesutto

Collins now objects to Chrysanthou's questions, saying she has misstated the transcript and uttered "slurs" against his client. #DeemingvPesutto

We're back on the African gangs thing again. Chrysanthou definitely wants to draw an equivalence between Pesutto's earlier statements regarding gangs and Deeming's association with Nazi sympathisers. #DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: politicians in both major parties engage in criticism of each other. Sometimes unjustified.

Pesutto: you have to be sure of your footing, and how it affects the party. #DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: you wouldn't expel an MP if Dan Andrews had said something bad about them.

Pesutto: not for that alone.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou now points out that Pesutto had defended Deeming after comments made by Dan Andrews on Deeming's maiden speech.

Pesutto brought that up himself yesterday.
#DeemingvPesutto

Not sure where Chrysanthou is going here. She's asking about Pesutto's history as leader in criticising the Labor government. #DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: you have several social media accounts. Do you maintain them and check them?

Pesutto: it's mostly my staff, I only occasionally post myself.
#DeemingvPesutto

Amusingly, Pesutto can't recall what his Twitter username is.

#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: it's not uncommon for an MP or staff to block users who are using their account as a platform to post offensive things.

Pesutto: I don't track that, but I understand my staff will do that.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: you have a website, and you endeavour to publish the truth on it.

Pesutto agrees.
#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto reiterates that he does not produce the content for much of his website.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: if there's a photo of you with another person on the website, do you agree that's associating you with the person?

Pesutto says that there are lots of different events where a photo is taken and put up online.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: there are also events where you've gone to an event to meet a specific person. In those circumstances, do you agree you're associating yourself with that person?
#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto: in the court of public opinion, you have to be as careful as you can to avoid any kind of photo that could expose you to criticism.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou shows a statement from Pesutto from 17/5/24 made as part of a settlement with KJK and Jones, in which he says he does not believe them to be "neo-Nazis".
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou suggests that describing KJK and Jones as "passionate women's rights activists" is complimentary.

Pesutto says it was a statement of fact.
#DeemingvPesutto

In the statement Pesutto says that "genuine community concerns" about "women's safety and access to single-sex spaces" warrants meaningful decision.

Chrysanthou suggests that taken with the "passionate" descriptor, this is complimentary.

#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto disagrees. He says it's simply a statement of the reality.

Chrysanthou suggests he's not being truthful. #DeemingvPesutto

We're going through the statement paragraph by paragraph.

Chrysanthou is parsing individual words and suggesting to Pesutto that their use implies that he wanted people to draw other inferences that are not explicitly in the statement.

Pesutto says no.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou suggests that the statement says that KJK and Jones did not knowingly associate with neo-Nazis.

(The statement says nothing of the kind - only that they are not neo-Nazis or members of neo-Nazi groups).
#DeemingvPesutto

The statement says that Pesutto had become aware that KJK/Jones publicly stated that "Nazism is odious and contemptible".

Chrysanthou suggests he knew this before the rally.

Pesutto disagrees.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou suggests that Deeming should have been given the benefit of the doubt re organising the rally.

Pesutto disagrees.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou asks Pesutto if he regrets any inference drawn from his words to the effect that KJK/Jones are Nazis.

He says he doesn't regret, but he has apologised.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou suggests that Pesutto is no longer of the view that Deeming should distance herself from KJK/Jones.

Pesutto says he is still of the view that Deeming should distance herself.
#DeemingvPesutto

It's worth noting that this statement does not in any way address the substance of Pesutto's issue with Deeming - that she was associating with people known to be ASSOCIATED WITH Nazis.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou suggests Pesutto's statement is a "public endorsement" of KJK and Jones!

Pesutto, rightly, rejects that.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: permission doesn't need to be sought to attend a rally.

Pesutto: strictly speaking, yes - but an MP should give consideration to broader impacts on the team and discussion is not unusual.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: Liberal MPs have attended rallies since October 7 2023 (the date of the Hamas attack) where there have been counter-protesters.

Pesutto isn't sure if there were counter-protesters, but accepts it is likely.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou asks Pesutto to accept that there is "controversy" about the Israel/Palestine conflict.

Pesutto says certainly in terms of the Greens!
#DeemingvPesutto

Now Pesutto is being interrogated about his views on the Israel/Palestine conflict.

I suppose this is all leading to "people can disagree about stuff".
#DeemingvPesutto

And we are back on the unfair dismissal train again.

Would Pesutto expel someone who characterised the October 7 attack as an act of resistance?
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: Deeming's expulsion only kicked her out of the Parliamentary Liberal Party, so she's still associated with the party as a whole. #DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto explains what that expulsion means. Basically, Deeming can't take part in the ordinary business of the Parliamentary party.

But the Parliamentary party doesn't have the ability to kick out someone from the party itself.
#DeemingvPesutto

The Judge says that Deeming can't sit in Parliament as a Liberal.

Pesutto says there is some dispute about that. #DeemingvPesutto

I think Chrysanthou is leading up to a suggestion that Deeming's expulsion did not achieve what Pesutto said he wanted, i.e. disassociating her from the Liberal party. #DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou asks if Pesutto gave a copy of the dossier to Michael Kroger of Sky News on or about the 20/3/23?

Pesutto says he didn't.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou now asking Pesutto about Peta Credlin. Does he recall "asking her for help" when he became Opposition Leader?

Pesutto says he didn't ask her for help, but his chief of staff might have. He can't recall if he spoke to her.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou suggests that asking Credlin to help Pesutto set up as Opposition Leader was an acknowledgment of her experience and capability.

Pesutto says he was "reaching out broadly" to everyone. #DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: at 10pm on 19/3/23 Credlin sent Pesutto's chief of staff a message expressing concerns about Pesutto's statement.

Pesutto was not aware of this at the time. #DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto said he anticipated debate on the issue of Deeming's proposed expulsion. #DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou suggests it was important that the info surrounding the expulsion motion be correct.

Pesutto says no one questioned its accuracy.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou brings up Liberal MP who disagreed with the notion:
Bev McArthur, who apparently said she would have attended the 18/3/23 rally had she not had other commitments.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou now talking about controversy over duck hunting.

Pesutto anticipates where she's going with this and says it's different from an issue where there is overwhelming public opinion one way (ie Nazis on the steps of Parliament). #DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou mentions James Newbury, who spoke in defence of Deeming at the expulsion motion meeting. He wasn't disciplined for that, was he?

Pesutto: no.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: there are various lesser disciplinary actions available in the Liberal Party constitution. Did you inform yourself of those?

Pesutto: "No, we believed expulsion was the appropriate course of action."

#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou asserts that Pesutto had made up his mind as of the evening following the rally that no matter what, he was going to expel Deeming.

Pesutto disagrees.

#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto confirms he has had discussions with former Premier Jeff Kennett about this trial.

Chrysanthou: did Kennett tell you he had contacted any witnesses in these proceedings?

Pesutto: No.
#DeemingvPesutto

Is Chrysanthou dancing around an accusation of witness tampering here?!

#DeemingvPesutto

Kennett has made a contribution to Pesutto's legal fees.

I'm not sure Chrysanthou really wants to go down that road. It could bring up some unpleasant things about her client.
#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto asked whether he talked about any settlement discussions with Kennett.

Pesutto says that at that time "someone" had been backgrounding media that he was being unreasonable about the Deeming issue.
#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto said he spoke privately on the subject because a false impression was being created that the issue was going to trial because he was unreasonable.

#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou suggests Pesutto told Kennett about settlement discussions because he wanted Kennett to go to the media.

Pesutto says he did not, he did it to correct the record with senior Liberal colleagues. #DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou says Pesutto knew Kennett *would* go to the media.

Pesutto disagrees. He can't speak to Kennett's thinking. #DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto says he cannot recall what, if anything, Kennett said to media about settlement discussions.
#DeemingvPesutto

Former Premiers Ted Baillieu and Denis Napthine also contributed to Pesutto's legal fund.
#DeemingvPesutto

At this point Collins objects to this line of questioning. There's no suggestion that any witnesses were intimidated into not testifying.
#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto says he was not aware that Kennett was going to publicly say witnesses for Deeming were "treacherous" and would be "dealt with" at pre-selection time. Or that Kennett spoke about Senator Sarah Henderson.
#DeemingvPesutto

That was a whole lot of nothing.

Jeff Kennett gave his opinion about people supporting Deeming, but there's no suggestion Pesutto had anything to do with it.
#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto now shown a letter from Deeming's lawyers to his legal team in which he is asked if he ever disclosed a confidential communication regarding settlement discussions from 25/7/24.
#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto says he believes he has not forwarded the letter regarding settlment discussions on. He repeats his earlier answer that he discussed aspects of the settlement discussions in order to counter accusations of unreasonableness. #DeemingvPesutto

This was not a formal process, but rather informal mediation discussions.

#DeemingvPesutto

Now Chrysanthou says there was a formal mediation agreement, but not subject to Federal Court rules.
#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto now being asked about Deeming's pre-selection.

Pesutto says there was disagreement about the pre-selection at the local party level.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: Deeming was elected, and the swing was higher than the state average.

#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: Pesutto met with Deeming at that time and there was no media controversy surrounding her.

Pesutto: no, there was an issue.
#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto confirms he didn't tell Deeming she couldn't hold her views, but suggested that she needed to be careful how she expressed them.

Chrysanthou: You didn't express any concerns to her, did you?
#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto: they did discuss that issue and that it was important for her not to be a single-issue MP. To the best of his recollection they also touched on the sensitivities surrounding her beliefs.

#DeemingvPesutto

This is very much not relevant. Pesutto is not being accused of defaming Deeming on anything to do with her beliefs about trans issues or women's rights.
#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto supported Deeming for Party Whip. He says he wanted to give her a chance, but didn't consider her for the Shadow Ministry.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou referencing a discussion that apparently took place in January 2023, in which Deeming asked for advice on carrying out her advocacy, as part of the Liberal team. And that she intended to attend KJK's rally.

Pesutto doesn't recall such a meeting. #DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto recalls a phone call in early to mid January, when Deeming told him there were some people coming to Melbourne and asked if he would meet with them.

He says he told her to take it up with his office.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: Deeming made a booking for Pesutto to meet with KJK on the morning of the rally.

Pesutto: says he did not know it at the time.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou suggests Pesutto knew "very well, as you sit there" that Deeming was planning to attend the 18/3/23 rally, and that Deeming had not been deceptive about it.

Pesutto rejects that.
#DeemingvPesutto

Now asking about an event where Mundine was appearing. Pesutto confirms he requested that a photo of him and Mundine be removed from the flyer.

Chrysanthou: because of his opposition to the Voice?

#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto says no policy had been formally adopted in regard to the Voice, so he didn't want to send an incorrect message to the public. #DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou suggests Pesutto wouldn't have attended an event with Deeming if she had a bad reputation.

Pesutto says he attended party events with members in general terms but doesn't agree that Deeming's reputation was good as of February 2023.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou suggests Pesutto was aware before the rally of Deeming's involvement, the flyers, and the invitation for the state Minister for Women to attend.

Pesutto says he was not.
#DeemingvPesutto

Chrysanthou: Deeming asked you to say that her views were mainstream, not controversial.

Pesutto: no, Deeming wanted him to actively defend the substance of her views.
#DeemingvPesutto

Pesutto confirms that he did not condemn Deeming on the subject of her views in a presser on 23/2/23.

The transcript shows Pesutto said Deeming would remain a member of the team, and that he had spoken to her about her views.
#DeemingvPesutto

In the presser, Pesutto said he didn't agree with Deeming's views. He clarifies this was in context of the earlier discussion.

Chrysanthou says Pesutto was telling journalists he didn't agree with any of Deeming's views.

The question will be carried over.
#DeemingvPesutto

And we are adjourned until 2.15pm. I'll be back with a new thread.

Enjoy your lunch, folks!
#DeemingvPesutto