Thread by @tribunaltweets

We hope to report today on the employment tribunal of Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife and Dr. B Upton. Conflicting information on the start time; either 10 or 11 am. We have been given permission to live tweet with some cautions for witnesses from Employment Judge Sandy.

The Judge's instruction to witnesses is here.

Peggie has objected to Dr Upton using the female changing room at the hospital where both worked in the A&E department. Background on the case and a selection of press can be found on our Substack here. open.substack.com/pub/tribunaltw…

Abbreviations we expect to use:

C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor
R/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board
R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
JR - Jane Russel, barrister for respondents

AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for respondents
J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
ET - Employment Tribunal
P1, P2 - additional panel members
CR - changing room
AE - Accident & emergency department
PCP – provision, criteria or practice

PCP – provision, criteria or practice is a rule, policy, or practice that can put people at a disadvantage based on certain characteristics. Used in employment law to assess whether an employer's actions create different outcomes for employees based on their characteristics.

A reminder to readers that our reporting should be considered as a whole. It is not a verbatim transcript of proceedings as we explain in our Substack as linked via our X bio. We report in good faith and make all efforts to ensure our output is fair and accurate.

We are a volunteer collective of citizen journalists. Our work is focused on covering legal cases on freedom of speech and belief. Please consider supporting our work with a subscription to our Substack.

Further abbreviations that may be used:
GC or SR: belief that biological sex is real, important,
immutable, and different from gender identity
TWAW - transwomen are women (often used to refer to male persons who claim a female gender identity)

TMAM - transmen are men (often used to refer to female persons who claim a male gender identity)
CX - complaint
DX - disciplinary procedure or process
IX - investigation

Thank you for your patience. The hearing is expected to begin shortly.
Correcting the spelling of JR: Jane Russell and including her recently acquired KC designation.
Panel members sitting with EJ,
P1 - CM Russell
P2 - L Brown.

We have been admitted to the video hearing. There seem to be some technical difficulties.

The judge and panel have arrived.
Remarks live tweeting, we have granted permission to one organisation to do that, not generating an exact transcript but a detailed relaying of evidence. If anyone wished to live tweet beyond that org, I will grant that permission.

Email the tribunal, if received before 5 pm today it will be deemed to apply to today as well.
****
There are standards of behaviour expected of anyone who is present. Observers may hear views with which they disagree but they may not comment on those views.

Discussing use of language, a disagreement between the parties. I have decided that during arguments or advocacy the witness or advocate can use the pronouns that they are comfortable with. That is for both sides. There may an element of asymmetry,

question asked with female pronouns and answered with different pronouns. The tribunal will attempt to use neutral pronouns, unless this is unnatural in which case out of courtesy, the tribunal will use female pronouns.
A matter of detail on documents relating to agreed facts.

where a fact is agreed there is no need to read evidence about it. If a fact is undisputed there is a difference. Addressing the difference between agreed facts and undisputed facts.
JR, NC - agree that document in question is agreed facts.

J - on to jurisdiction, timing of first conciliation hearing and impact on jurisdiction. If incidents are discrete claims are they out of the jurisdiction of the court? Just flagging that so the parties are aware of that. Does either party want to say anything.

JR - I'm not sure if C has taken a time point, but we are likely to address in closing.
NC - we will wait and address in closing that the two incidents are part of a course of conduct.
J - we have a timetable, it does seem quite tight for time. We should take stock at the end

of the week. My colleagues and I have been given a reading list and we have been over it but will not be aware of every word on the every page. NC - anything to raise?
NC - we have an additional document we want to insert into the bundle, DU previous GMC registration under the

name of Theodore Upton.
JR - that is opposed. I'm disappointed that MLC has deadnamed DU. Making that order might an act of direct discrimination and harassment against DU. Citing a case, deadnaming is an act of harassment.

Is the panel aware of deadnaming
J & panel indicate yes.
JR - deadnaming is a rejection of the person's identity and make them very stressed and it might affect the evidence they can give in this tribunal. Particularly egregious in a public hearing, anyone can harass DU

on the basis of previous name. Not relevant to the case. Do not need to refer to DU's deadname to deal with the case. Simply not relevant. To allow the document in is to harass the witness.
J - that's a tribunal case I'm not aware of, can you send to me. We will have

a look.
JR - yes.
J - it's not binding but I will take it into account.
NC - it is surprising that it is possible for DU to sue the tribunal for the manner in which it carries out it's functions. I don't have the case law to hand, but I can address you on that after a short

break but it's an extraordinary suggestion. It is not under any obligation under the EA that could give rise to cause of action against the tribunal or the judge. JR has given evidence that deadnaming has a harassing effect and stress the individual. This case is about the

fact that not everyone agrees that men can women. The point of the claimant's case is that DU's identity does not trump reality. It is not of critical moment but there are questions I will want to ask DU about the fact that his GMC reg has changed from his original name

said to be relinquished and changed to a female name.
J - why wasn't this included earlier.
NC - I don't think C's legal team had found it until later.
(NC taking instruction)
NC - we proposed to add it to the bundle two weeks ago so it's not last minute.

J - JR says it's not relevant. Why is it relevant
NC - the medical professions and the NHS willingness to indulge the identity claims, the GMC is prepared to falsify a document...
J - the GMC is not a party here.
NC - it's a measure of the power the DU has been able to exercise

It says at the bottom of the previous registration 'not on the register, cannot practice as doctor', I want to ask questions about that.
JR - two points, this is not a roving public inquiry, its a tribunal case, we should focus on the issue. Second point is that people change

names all the time and it has no practical consequences.
J - I'm not going to try and make a decision quickly. It may be that I wait until we see what the questions relating to the document, I will defer a final decision on this matter. Will it be necessary before we get to 2nd

R?
NC - I don't think so, I'm content with your proposed course of action.
J - referring to an EAT case that may be relevant. Will not make a decision now, leave it for further consideration.
NC - clues to help us find that case?
J - if you're both happy to wait, I will go

next door and look it up.
<J leaves the room>.

<J returns>
Reads off the case reference.
J - any other preliminary matters
NC - R has additional documents to add to the bundle.
<JR handing additional documents to J & P>
JR - cast list, witness timetable, statement from Maya Forstater, agreed facts, etc
<distributing docs>

JR - amending witness timetable to include Kate Searle (KS), now including additional emails from KS>. Another witness was on C's witness list until last week (SP's RCN rep) we may want to call him but will let you know.
J - apparently somebody named Forstater has attempted

to join the hearing.
NC - has she asked for a link to join or has she attempted to join? I know that she will observe once her evidence is completed, but has asked her team not to discuss the evidence in her hearing and will not read any reports of the case.

J - <tidying up documents>
J - there's a name appearing on the screen, if anyone is observing remotely turn off your camera and microphone. We will keep an eye on the technology.
Are we ready to start.
NC - yes, first witness is Sandy Peggie.

<J swearing SP>
J - you will be giving evidence, first questions will come from your counsel, my speed of note is 1/2 speed so I may ask you to slow down.
NC - Can you confirm your name, and your workplace address.
SP - does so.
NC - how long have you been a nurse

SP - since 1994, and at R since 1994.
NC - what is your shift pattern
SP - 2 night shifts per week, since 2000
NC - what was your work pattern before that?
SP - full time day and night shifts
NC - why did you go down to part time

SP - when I had my first child in 2000.
NC - when did your first meet DU? and what was your impression of him?
SP - Oct 2023, my impression was that he was male
NC - what was he wearing
SP - scrubs,
NC - why did you think he was male

SP - tale, receding hairline, male physique, hair in a ponytail
NC - anything to contradict that impression
SP - no
NC - did DU appear differently or present differently at the privacy hearing
SP - hair down, wearing a suit,
NC - how do you refer to DU at work
SP - Beth

NC - did you work together frequently
SP - not often, but on the night of Halloween
NC - can you describe how that went
SP - a child was brought in, appeared to be in anaphylaxis from sweets they had been given
NC - how serious was his condition

SP - very serious, required urgent response from a consultant, Beth and myself
NC - so you had to work together, how was that
SP - we worked together as a doctor and nurse, we gave medications, took observations, monitored to patient's condition
NC - how was that

SP - I thought it was successful
NC - do men and women wear different scrubs or are they unisex
SP - doctors wear maroon scrubs,
NC - but these are unisex
SP - yes
NC - what do you wear
SP - blue scrubs, short sleeves, top and trouser

NC - do you come to work in those clothes?
SP - no I bring my work clothes
NC - who washes them
SP - I do
NC - where do you change at work
SP - there is a female CR, I have been using it since 2012.
NC - who else uses that changing room

SP - most of the female staff, nurses doctors support workers.
NC - is it for me and women
SP - its for women only
NC - how do you know that
SP - there's a sign on the door, women only
NC - I thought we had a picture in the bundle
<picture found>

NC - page 692,
<SP struggling with page numbers, bundle shuffling>
NC - we see a door and a bit of wall besides the door, we see a close up of that sign which says 'female staff only' How do you get into that room
SP - we have a swipe card,
NC - does it know you're female

SP - no
J - let me catch up
NC - can you give a rough estimate of how many use that staff every day
SP - about 30, including domestic staff
NC - do consultants use that room
SP - no, most do not, just one that I know of
NC - moving on to first incident that you and DU were in

the changing room, can you describe that
SP - I entered the cr, I had my hand on the door, I didn't go all the way in, I saw DU in the room, I felt quite shocked. DU said hi, I said hi and went back out and remained in the corridor and waited until DU came out and I went in.

NC - why did you leave the cr on finding DU in there
SP - I feel uncomfortable changing in front of men,
NC - did you speak to someone in the corridor, who was it
SP - it was 2 nurses, one asked why i was standing there, and I told him that DU was changing in the CR.

NC - did that person say anything to you,
SP - I don't remember, I told him I wasn't happy
NC - can you tell the tribunal how finding DU in the women's changing room made you feel
SP - I was upset that he was allowed to use it, didn't want to go in because I was embarrassed

and I didn't want to change in front of him. (Missed something witness very quiet)
NC - did you talk to anyone about how you felt
SP - I talked to my husband, there were already discussions at work about DU being in the changing room, and a few nurses were also unhappy

NC - did you talk to anyone in your management chain
SP - I spoke to my line manager Esther Davison, she told me she would get it sorted
NC - what was the tone of that convo
SP - she sounded supportive, sounded like she wasn't aware of the situation,

NC - what did you understand 'get it sorted' to mean
SP - I thought she would speak to senior management and DU would not be allowed to use the changing room
NC - did that happen
SP - no.

NC - can you tell the tribunal what this document shows (pg 259)
<bundle shuffling>
NC - do you have the supplementary bundle and the main bundle
J - what are you referring to?
NC - it's the supplemental bundle of authorities
J - we don't have a hard copy yet
NC - maybe the

Rs can look at the bundle in the break, and sort it out.
NC - looking at 259, what is that,
SP - its a message to my colleague, a friend
NC - you say 'I thought Chris was winding me up'
SP - there had been a discussion about DU, and had said 'hoped not going into female CRs

SP - and Chris had said 'yes, he thought that DU was'
NC - were you the only person upset about DU using the female CR
SP - a few of the girls shared my views
NC- how did you know
SP - through word of mouth
NC - directly or indirectly

JR - a number of leading questions
J - was that directly
SP - Yes
NC - were you the only person that expressed a view to senior management
SP - yes
NC - can we move on to the second time you were in the CR with DU

SP - i was in the CR, in my bra with my work trousers on, DU came in with another doctor, I put my work top back on and left the room,
NC - how did that make you feel
SP - also embarrassed
NC - what happened after that
SP - I stood in the corridor, waiting for DU to come out

and while waiting spoke to another female work colleague.
NC - who was that
SP - Anna Dunstan. She also agreed that DU shouldn't be in the female CR and she was going to talk to management
NC - do you know if she did
SP - I dont' know
NC - why was Anna in the corridor

SP - she was waiting for DU to finish as I was
NC - did you report this incident
SP - no, was waiting to hear from ED
NC - did you speak to anyone else
SP - I spoke to the charge nurse, she said that ED had spoken to diversity, she wasn't sure of the outcome and I needed to speak

to ED.
NC -what happened next
SP - I never heard from ED, until we were working together and I approached her. She replied that she never got anywhere. I told her I was unhappy, and if I was put in that position again, I would have to speak to DU.

NC - did ED comment on that
SP - no
NC - did you raise the issue with anyone else
SP - just colleagues at work, not management
NC - turn to page 465 of bundle, this is the IX meeting notes, who was the charge nurse you referred to
SP - it was LC

NC - can you describe that convo
SP - I was in the handover room at end of shift, I asked about DU, I told her I was unhappy, she said that ED had spoken to her.
NC - what did she say
SP - that ED had spoken to Equality and Diversity (ED), she told me there were other areas

I could change in
<J gets a note, sound is hard to hear, can we speak directly to microphone>
SP - I was told there were other areas I could change in and I would have to speak to ED
NC - did anything happen from your complaints
SP - nothing was done
NC - can you described the

incident in the CR with DU on Christmas EVe. I realised I was bleeding heavily, I needed to change myself. Anticipated there was a possibly that I needed fresh clothes. So I went back to the CR. Hoping to get to the toilet and when I arrived, there was a nurse, another dr and

DU was coming out of the toilet. He was speaking to the other nurse in front of me. I didn't want anyone to see if there was any blood on my trousers. The two other staff members left, and DU remained in the room. DU started to undress. And I was trying to avoid looking at

him. I turned my head towards my locker. I told DU that I felt it was unacceptable that he was in the female CR. I told him I was embarrassed and intimidated. And I didn't think he should have been in there. DU informed me that he had as much right to be there as I did.

SP cont - I told him that wasn't true, if I wanted to get changed in front of a man, I would have been in the other CRs. And I once again told him I was embarrassed and intimidated. I turned to look at him. And tried to make him understand how I felt, I mentioned the

recent incident in the court, when a male prisoner had been put in a female prison. And I had also told DU that I had been previous bad experience with a man. I was hoping he would realise my discomfort.
NC - what did DU say to you
SP - told me there were protocols I could

follow, I told him that's what I would do and then I left the room.
NC - can you describe the tone of that convo
SP - we were just talking normally, no raised voices, and I felt it was just a convo where we disagreed
NC - turn to pg 653, photo of CR. What does that pic show?

SP - it's a pic of the CR
NC - where was DU standing?
SP - next to the sink
NC - thank you, it's nearly 12:50, the room is warm, rather too water, can we take an early lunch
J - yes, let's take an early lunch, then gives instructions to SP on not discussing evidence with anyone

Court rises, end of morning session.

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