Thread by @tribunaltweets

It is Day 3 of Peggie vs Fife NHS and Dr B Upton.
We expect to resume at 10 am.
We will continue to report on this thread.

Our Substack with links to case background, our reporting so far, other press can be found here: open.substack.com/pub/tribunaltw…

Abbreviations:
C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie

NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister

R/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board

R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton

JR - Jane Russel, barrister for respondents

J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp

ET - Employment Tribunal

IX - Investigation

CR - Changing Room

We are waiting for the live link to open.

We begin.
J reminds of oath.
Panelist asks question - inaudible
P - Said you did 2 days a week (inaudible)
SP - Louise is the charge nurse, works in dept. Esther Davidson also works in dept as line manager.
P - (inaudible)
SP - (inaudible)

Panelist (P1) has no mic.

SP - I don't think there was a response.

P1 - (inaudible)

SP - not at that time

P1 - (inaudible)

P1 (inaudible) are you aware of diff between NHS Scotland and NHS Fife?

SP - I think it's NHS Fife

P1 - (inaudible)
SP not at that time
P1- (inaudible)
SP I just wanted to have a response from her to see if she could do anything about it.
P1 - (inaudible)
SP - yes that was the tone
P1 - how did you become aware of process?
SP - I just looked it up
P2 - who took the photo's of

The toilet and changing?
SP - one of the receptionists, last year
P2 - is that how it looked xmas eve?
SP - yes, the external ones of the female ones were 2 weeks ago. The internal ones last year. The male ones later. Female ones about 2 weeks ago.
P2 - photos don't reflect Xmas

SP - it's the same. Receptionist took the male CR pics.
P2 - did you ask?
SP - yes Charlene
P2 - of the changing room.
SP - because I asked her to yes.
J - thanks
J - help with details. You were aware R2 might be using CR.
SP - yes
J - what did you understand in advance?

SP - it was chit chat.
J - had you seen DU there?
SP - no
J - what was the chit chat?
SP - that he was ?? I said as long as he's not using the changing area
J - on 26th august, what did you see?
SP - saw Beth sitting on chairs, putting his shoes on

J - refs page - messages exchanged, the black is your contribution. It starts the trans Dr.
Did you know the name?
SP - yes
J - why say trans Dr?
SP- ?
J - second message, starts in caps, then normal ends lol.
SP - laugh out loud.
J - why
SP - was a joke as such

J - spoke to Ester the next week?
SP - I think it was the next day. in the morning around quarter to 8.
J - end fof shift?
SP - yes
J - spoke to esther when?
SP - 8:30 about
J - just 2 of you?
SP - yes
J - What about
SP - that I wasn't happy about Beth in female CR

SP - (inaudible)
J - anything in writing after that?
SP - no
J - did you think you were talking informally or formally?
SP - informal at that time
J - what did you expect to happen?
SP - thought she might get advice from management or HR

J - next spoke to Louise?
SP - yes in the same room, hand over room was with another member of staff. Talking about whether she'd heard anything about Beth in the changing area. She said she knew Esther had been to equality and diversity . you'd have to ask her.
J - lists dates

of incidents. when did you speak to Louise?
SP - before the second.
J - somewhere round end of Sept?
SP - yes.
J - next event, spoke to Esther. Timing. End Sept guestimate for Louise, when was Esther?
SP - poss 2 weeks later.
J before 2nd incident?
SP - no after.
J -

J - mid/late Sept?
SP - yes
J - what did she say?
SP - I asked what the outcome was. She said spoke to E+D but hadn't got anywhere. (inaudible) said I was unhappy and if in that situation again i'd have to speak to Beth.
J - said to colleague here no reply?
SP - yes.

J - got a reply that you weren't happy with. So early mid nov what else could you do?
SP - wasn't given any advice or information about what else I could do. (inaudible) NHS Fife stop using the toilet.
J - 25th Oct incident. where you were in changing room partly undressed

J - and DU walked in. did you speak to anyone?
SP - just Esther
J - didn't speak to anyone else.
SP - had 2 weeks holiday.
J - just one conv ?
SP - yes
J - so second incident, then chat with Esther. 24th Dec incident, what was your undertanding of NHSFifes position

SP - I didn't know anything, just presumed there was going to be nothing.
J - it's agreed R1 gave permission to DU, when aware of that?
SP - first time I saw beth in toilet/CR.
J - how were you aware permission had been given?
SP - he was in there and he said he had as much right

J - on which date did DU say?
SP - (3rd date)
J - Mid october realised permission given
SP - yes
J - 24/25 Dec. What time was it?
SP - about 12 o'clock
J - as you entered what did you see
SP - saw Fiona on a bench putting shoes on, a dr by the rack
J - dr, know name?
SP - no
J

J - wearing scrubs
SP - don't remember
J - where was Dr U?
in the toilet
J - was was DU wearing?
SP - clothes
J - scrubs?
SP - yes
J - Tell us what happened.
*all look for photos of room*

J - where was fiona?
SP - here by bag on floor
J - was she sitting?
SP - yes on shoe rack
J - where were you
SP - standing by lockers
J - other DR
SP - by shoe rack
J - DU?
SP - in the toilet.
J - when you were speaking with Fiona DU was where?
SP - by toilet door

J - there are 2 toilets
SP - clarifies which one.
J - why can we see a bag in one photo and not the other
SP - taken diff times
J - you were standing at end of lockers?
SP - yes
J - then?
SP - I was speaking to Fiona, DU came and washed his hands.
J - DU was close to you?

SP - yes
J - what next
SP - the others left
J - presumably your conv with Fiona ended when she left.
SP - yes.
J - when they left where was DU
SP - still at sinks
J - next happens?
SP - Drs finish at different times, I thought he would be leaving to go back to work.

SP - I turned and he started getting undressed
J - where
SP - centre of room, closer to the door.
J - DU walked past you to change?
SP - yes
J - nobody spoke as yet?
SP - no
J - refs pic. describes layout. where would you way DU was at this point
SP -taking belongings from seat

Sp - I think he had a rucksack
J - pic shows door and shoerack - where was DU then?
SP - possibly just in front of the orange bag.
J - had you moved?
SP - I had just turned my body to the left, to try to look away from DU.
J - still nearer locker than bench?
SP - yes

J - you said DU was undressing?
SP - I believe it was his trousers, I wasn't watching
J - how did you know if not watching.
SP - more or less listening
J - when did you decide to say something
SP - at that time. I opened the locker and started speaking
J - where were you looking?

SP - the lockers
J - what was the first thing you said
SP - that it was unacceptable
J - have heard about convo over last 2 day, but how long was the convo?
SP - about 2 minutes
J - did you look at him, DU at anytime?
SP - only wehen I turned around and said surely you can

SP - understand after the recent court case.
J - why did you turn
SP - to look at him, to try and convey how I was feeling.
J - there were visible signs of distress?
SP - me? yes I was shaking.
J - you turned and saw what?
SP - DU dressing, it was a coat he was putting on

J - did you see what was under?
SP - no
J - what colour it was?
SP - no
J - was it a big heavy coat?
SP - short from what I remember
J - not scrubs
SP - not from what I can remember.
J - when DU left did you see any signs of distress on DU part?
SP - no

J - about the IX meetings. First 7th March?
SP - can't remember date, was with Esther and ?? to discuss my suspension.
J - where
SP - Margaret hospital
J - Might have been a meeting wth Angela and Michelle and others. What was the purpose?
SP - introduce ourselves. Let me know

SP - that IX will go ahead
J - did you see any notes from that?
SP - no
J - we have a letter about it - refs page - remember seeing it?
SP - can't remember it. but it looks
J - says should you wish to meet with me and Michelle, was the meeting a response to this letter?

SP - don't know
J - this is how you knew Angela Glancy was investigating?
SP - yes
J - did you get the guide to investigation?
SP - can't remember
J - looking at claim form, invited to a meeting do you remember that
SP - might have been 10th may meeting
J - 19th July letter

J - that sets out 4 allegations, and meeting 2nd august
SP - yes
J - did it take place then or 30th
SP - 30th
J - copy of IX documents, do you remember what you got?
SP - I remember it was a copy of the meetings and the bullets here (refs)
J- looks like statements were included

J - interviews and documents, what were the documents?
SP - results of other interviews
J - anything else?
SP - can't remember
J - note on 30th Aug meeting. Is it a reasonably accurate record?
SP - it's accurate
J - qu20, where were you and DU when conv started, you responded he

J - was to my left and were both standing, you said he started undressing and Angela notes you were upset.
SP - yes, she mentioned previous experience, didn't want to look into it and I became upset, I had tears in my eyes
J - were able to continue?
SP - yes
J - then you say DU

left
SP - yes
J - it follows most of the conv was as DU was changing?
SP - yes
J - scrubs to casual clothes
SP - yes
J - I think you said, you thought another meeting in Oct. What was purpose?
SP - Angela said there were things to go over. Discuss the result of the IX.

J - where was it
SP - a room (inaudible)
J - who was there
SP - stuart fraser (inaudible) another girl taking notes?
J - did you see notes?
SP - i never saw notes it was also recorded
J - how long
SP - half an hour

J - discussed what
SP - same details as previously
J - anything different?
SP - (inaudible)
J - finally you remember being asked about alternative and you mentioned the basement?
SP - when Esther had spoken to me she mentioned the basement or a cupboard the domestics use to

change.
J - where?
SP - next to female changing
J - what's in it
SP - supplies, bandages.
J - does it have a sign
SP - no
J - a blank door
SP - I think so
J - thank you
P1 - (inaudible) you said you were unsure (inaudible) when the Dr and burse left changing were they going home

SP - yes
J - 5 min break.

Will return to SP's barrister (NC) questioning after the break.

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