Thread by @tribunaltweets

Welcome to the afternoon session of DAY 3 of S Peggie v Fife Health Board & Dr. B Upton.

We expect Maya Forstater, CEO of Sex Matters & witness for the claimant to continue her evidence.

2pm start.

For this morning, previous reporting & press coverage, visit out substack.

Please note: Today we are reporting via remote access where sound has been challenging.tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fi…

Abbreviations

C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie

NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister

R/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board

R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton

JR - Jane Russel, barrister for respondents

J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp

ET - Employment Tribunal

IX - Investigation

CR - Changing Room

[14.03]

[JR instructs MF to bundle ref]
JR Fair Play for Women are adult gender critical group aren't they
MF Yes
JR And u rely on this for ur proposition [male born prisoners 76 had conviction for sexual offence]
MF: yes date comes from Ministry of Justice

[Previous post *data not date]
JR: Turn to page 13 of those MOJ statistics
[Sorting pages with Judge and MF]
JR This section is introducing [reads 'data exercise, of these 49 reported gender as male'. Reads more]

JR: Upshot is that there is no indication of sentence committed pre or post transition. So unclear how many ID at TW
MF: This is not the document that FPFW. But I think is true as JR says it doesn't say prisoners ID as transgender at time of offence

JR: Do u accept stats I've produced are likely to be those referred to?
MF: Sorry where are they [assessing which docs] Can you show me where?
JR I only printed that part off
J I think I don't know is the answer
MF As far as I know it doesn't come from this

J Just answer Q as put to u
JR Look at page 217. This is a study by Mckay in 2017 on violence in LGBTQ communities. U familiar?
MF Not in depth, I didn't put in bundle

JR Upshot of that study is no evidence that prans ppl posers to wider population and those communities more likely to experience violence themselves?
MF I don't know that academic paper and not in position to comment on it

JR Page 137. Tho be clear this is not academic article. From media matters for America. About 12 states in America. U familiar?
MF Yes
JR '15 experts dispel right wing transgender myth' whether policies allow trans ppl to use sexed spaces in line with gender
J Too fast

JR Reading from Vic Valentine's statement
J Give me a second
[Sorting where they are in bundle]
J Do u have access [to MF]
MF No
[They sort]
MF [re previous paper] I've read the paper and it doesn't say that. Words that are in Vic Valentines statement are not in the paper

MF US legislations I've looked at allow sex discrimination for public accommodations eg showers, CR. So laws are similar to EA10 ur not allowed to discriminate on sex or gender identity. What we call gender reassignment but u lowed to have sex based rules to have M and F only

Bathrooms . Otherwise they'd be unlawful. U can't have a M only board room or M only University. So where u have single sex spaces u are allowed to discrimibate. Nothing in paper that says that.
JR Vic Valentine is saying policies
MF Nothing in paper that says the policies

In these states allow ppl to use opposite sex bathrooms
JR Look at Colorado [reads 'unsubstantiated fears'] So there they're saying no problems
MF But they're not saying they have a law for ppl to use opposition sex bathrooms just that

trans ppl should not be discriminated against which is right, like trans ppl ca use a restaurant or train
JR Lets have a look at Mexico there's a ref to public discrimination since 2011. Any sort of accommodation including a bathroom?
MF It doesnt say

J I'd understood evidence of MF based on fact [can't hear judge. I will get what I can] You would have someone with relevant qualifications. No evidence if any qualification of law
JR Yes

J Just flagging up my concerns. Ur entitled to take this as far as u wish but is a concern this may not be any help
JR This was supposed to be skilled witness
J That's different

JR Yes your right this witness isn't an expert or skilled person in such matters and I find the line both parties have taken is difficult as may look like dressing up facts as skilled

J I don't know what intention is. Asking a question of fact is a matter of skilled evidence
JR Just wondering where that leaves us in terms of evidence
J I'm not sure as I'm not sure directions of evidence. U can take a break and speak to NC or plough ahead
JR Plough ahead

J I'm concerned if we're going to be looking at law in conneticut
JR (laughs) Yes. Look at study page 222. Starts 218. This is 2018 study. U aware?
MF Yes

JR This study found no differences in comparison to criminal incidents...actually this is masachussets so I think I'll move on (laughs) I'll move on. Actually this is north Caroline so will move on. this is Scottish gov. U aware?
MF I read in bundle yes

JR This one says No evidence to support claim that TW are more likely than cis women to sexually assault other women in women only places.
MF I think correct but using its search terms it didn't shed any light on that question at all
JR Moving on to paraphilia section.This whole

section that says TW have a sexual fetish is without foundation?
MF That's not an adequate summary of this section. It says within group on men identifying as women and those who cross dress and may seek to use F facilities. Its been identified that phenomena of

autogynephilia is signif for some of that group and
this has been studied
JR U say the rest of this is in a SM report
MF Yes
JR forthcoming report isn't out yet
MF No
JR SM has a partic perspective of issue of TW?
MF SM is a HR org and we recognise there are 2 sexes & promote HR

JR Look in other bundle. U have just said SM is a human rights org. This article disputes that and say 'they claim'. This is disputed by LGBTQ+ ppl who say they're reducing human rights. Trans ppl don't agree with u?
MF Not everyone agrees with everyone.We're recognised as HR org

MF We're recognised by Charity Commission
JR Helen Joyce caused controversy by holding up progress flag with progress oart ripped out. Can u understand why trans ppl would be afraid of Miss Joyce?
MF Afraid of what
JR She's ripping out part representing trans ppl and trampling

On it and may be trampling on their rights so they could be afraid
MF Afraid?
JR I'm to ask the questions and you are to answer them. I'm asking if someone is representing a part of flag representing ppl that's not very good
MF I thought u said afraid

JR Ripping out part of a flag & trampling on it is an extreme thing to do?
MF I'm not sure whether it would make me afraid
J Is it an extreme thing to do?
MF For a start it wasn't HJ who made the flag. It was a lesbjan activist who held flag up & asked Helen to hold & she agreed

MF I don't think it's an extreme price of political theatre and I don't think there's a need to be afraid of HJ for that reason
JR HJ has also been accused of wanting to reduce number of trans ppl [reads]

JR She's saying there we must stop ppl transitioning
MF Those are the words she says there and I think she's talking about the harm particularly to young ppl who are autistic or maybe same sex attracted and coming to believe they have been born in wrong body

MF and at the time of statement were being given puberty blockers to stop their puberty which have effect if they go on to cross sex hormones sterilising them before they've been ae to have any adult sexual experience of their own a d which has e since been banned by Gov

JR Your agricultural degree doesn't give u any skill behind any of those statements
MF They're based on Cass Review by Dr Hilary Cass who looked at it over for years
JR You're not a doctor
MF No but I've read the Cass Review
JR Saying we must stop trans ppl is rather ominous?

JR [reads prev statement HJ said]
MF No I don't agree
J What do you mean
MF She means keeping down number of ppl who transition and this was to do with rapid increase in young ppl transitioning and taking one sentence from that and saying ominous when what she was saying was

Prefigured what Dr Hilary Cass said and harm of puberty blockers. I don't think that makes it ominous
JR I used the shorthand in my Q bc u agreed with me that she said she must stop ppl transitioning
MF Sorry what?
JR [repeats about ominous]

MF I don't think ur characterisation is correct
JR Saying we must stop ppl transitioning is ominous
MF Not if it's causing harm to ppl
JR Ur position is its justified
MF What is?
JR Stopping trans ppl?

MF Reducing in particular children and young people put on medic pathway is justified by cass review and now Gov
JR Here someone accuses u of being involved in terrorism
(Missed)
JR It's true you're trying to remove equality of trans ppl (my paraphrase)
MF No

JR You are to make sure trans women are not in same category as bio women correct?
MF Yes
JR Some ppl interpret that as reducing trans ppls rights. Do u agree that's interpretation of some ppl?
MF I can't disagree that some ppl think anything

JR It also says you called esteemed barrister Robin oira White a man?
MF Yes
JR Thats profoundly offensive isn't it?
MF I don't know bit it doesnt stop it being true
JR So it doesnt stop it being profoundly offensive by misgendering?

JR You talk about pattern of cross dressing. Ur conflating TW with cross dressers when that's not true. Correct
MF Under transgender umbrella crossdressers are included and we're until last year. It is well known ow there js a development from cross dressing to transition

MF While some psychologists characterise they're not the same thing it's also not possible to draw a clear line between the two. Someone who has cross dressed then does it full time, this is not two completely different things
JR Where's the study that shows that
MF In bundle

[J asks MF to find in bundle]
J - It might help on this issue
MF On page 6, this is Ray Blanchards study. He is clinicians who coined term autogynephilia. In 2nd column he says [reads 'likely in non Homosexual gender dysphoria']

JR Not sure that's evidence as u describe which was effectively a journey. That's talking about erm. Not the journey.
J - Is there a question
JR Question there's no mention of a journey? He's not saying that

MF I think he is, that's what clinicians say they see. Indivs coming to them saying I'd be happier living as a woman and ive been dressing as a woman for some time. So there is a progression from sometimes to full time and take on identity of woman. I don't think it's

controversial to say dressing comes first
JR He doesn't use work progression or similar
MF In all clinical studies there's case studies what brought them to the doc to transtition and almost always begin wearing opp sex clothing.

It's part of diagnostic Qs a doctor would ask
JR We don't have diagnostic info in the bundle so we can't check what ur saying is correct can we?
MF I'm not sure
JR There isn't. In any case Dr Ray Blanchard who u quote, he wrote this in 1980s?
MF Yes
JR 40 year old now
MF Yes

JR This is by Police Chief, Julie Challoner and she's not a researcher or expert?
J Q was about her
MF I don't know
J You mentioned book by Ann Lawrence and first person account. Who is Ann?

MF Was a doctor and an academic and autogynephile who wrote several papers and one book about autogynephilia
JR This is from Doctor Az Hakeem. I think thats A book?
MF It is
JR Gist of book is captured in title 'detrans when tranition is not the solution'?
MF No

JR Sorry the title is not the pages of we see following?
MF On page 20 he says 'in my previous book 'trans' [reads]. He has treated numerous several transplant at Tavistock.
JR He write Trans and Detrans. Rather suggests he's coming to a solution.

MF No it's about a group of detransitioners and decided it was not right for them and very vulnerable population
JR He thinks transitioning isn't solution bc ppl have regretted
MF No it's a book about detransition as those people exist

JR How can u say that with the title of the book 'when transition is not the solution'?
MF Because the book about ppl who transition was not right for them
JR I want to look at results of study on page 129 [reads 'prevelance of sexual behaviour and comparisons of men and woman]

JR I want to focus on men compared to women. That doesn't tell us anything about TW does it?
MF I think in this study... assuming in this study they mean biological men and bio women
JR My Q was this doesn't say anything about TW does it?

MF It doesn't mention terms TW. Talks about men with paraphilia of travesty fetishism which is under umbrella
JR The category u describe is not in this report is it?
MF Yes [shows]
JR It doesn't refer to TW in there?
MF No it's refers to transvestite fetishism

JR I see heading. There are 4 columns. There is no column of TW is there?
MF No there's a column for 'males exhibiting'
JR It doesn't say that! This is misleading. There's no fourth column for TW or TM?

MF No we don't know if TW are included in male or fenale category bc it doesn't show how they've categorised them.
J Short break please

[BREAK]

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