Thread by @tribunaltweets

We will shortly return with the first pm session of Sandie Peggie v Fife Health Board and Dr Upton.

Background information, earlier coverage and press articles can be found on our Substack linked below

Abbreviations
C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor
R/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board
R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
JR - Jane Russel, barrister for Rstribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fi…

AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for Rs
J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
ET - Employment Tribunal
P1, P2 - additional panel members
CR - changing room
AE - Accident & emergency department
PCP - provision, criteria or practice
SM - Sex Matters
HR - Human Rights

TW - Transwoman
ED - Esther Davidson, SP's line manager

We are due to begin again at 1:50.

J - have the new documents, lets agree the order of the pages for numbering.
JR - suggests putting in date order
All reorder and check emails and attachments.

JR - DU taking you to note about 18th Dec '23 incident. What was your shift
DU - night
JR claimant?
DU - also nightshif

DU - at the time she was working as triage nurse.
JR - what does that involve?
DU - first point of contact for walk ins. Role is a brief assessment to determine how unwell someone is and what part of dept they should see. Directing to care needed

JR - how did the patient present?
DU - young child came with parents, was triaged but then left with parents. Notes put into tray for review. The notes were there but parents left before they were seen by Dr.
JR - age of patient?
DU - under 10, can't be certain.
JR what category

of triage?
DU - don't know
JR what was your interaction with the child.
DU - called them to the room, didn;t come. You make a judgement about potential consequences if they have left. Call again if they don't come immediately. Generally careful for children. You would try and

DU - reach parent on phone to try and discuss to call them back in, or say happy at home, but if this happens come back.
DU - so that's what happened here.
JR - then what?
DU - I wanted to ask C about the patient, looking for more info to make a good assessment. Went to find her

DU - to see if she had any concerns.
JR - did you find her?
DU - no.
JR what did you do.
DU - I asked Rhianna if she could find her. Then I wrote up my notes and Rhianna left to find C.
JR - then?
DU - R returned with C. I said hello. Got no acknowledgement of my hello from C.

JR - what did you say and to who.
DU - I said hi and waved to C. She answered Rhianna, didn't look at me but said no concerns.
JR - where was C looking?
DU - at R.
JR - how far were you?
DU - half a metre. I said thank you and there was no acknowledgement.
JR - then?

DU - she left the area
JR - ref doc, is this summary fair?
DU - yes
JR - when did you write it
DU - eve of 19th I should think
JR - refs other notes DU made
DU - I try to write them as soon as possile to reflect feelings of the time
JR - why did you make notes about interactions

DU - I wanted a record of the incidents, it was odd and I was concious that those who are against the existence of trans people and I am vulnerable as a trans person to that. I wanted to be able to say this is what happened, this is what's gone on so that there would be

DU - accurate understanding.
JR - when a nurse doesn't interact with a dr, say in resus, what does that mean for a hospital.
DU - need to communicate and respect eachother you don't have to like eachother. A+E is a team game. You have to be able to trust the team as things can

DU - change quickly
JR impact on patients?
DU - on reflection, I'd wanted to mention it to Dr Searle that it is escalating. Wanted to discuss how to address. I need to know I can rely on colleagues, if I can't rely on someone it impacts patient care.

JR - when did you speak to Dr Searle?
SU - couldn't speak to DS till 29th.
JR - how did you feel?
DU - again sad. You try and give benefit of doubt, but at this point, the reason for the records, it to show the situation has changed but behaviour continuing. DIdn't want a fuss

DU - but if escalating, I need to act. It has potential to impact me and patients if I can't trust her.
JR - you describe it escalating.
DU - you don't have to be best friends to work together, in a CR or break room you don't have to interact. But that's not the same as working

DU - you need to talk to each other in work. If you've gone from not talking in non-clin env, to not talking in a clinical env, that is more serious.
JR - Xmas eve incident notes ref'd. And pictures of changing room ref'd to. please describe cubicles
DU - 2 lockable cubicles one

at far end, another next to it.
JR - rest of room
DU - lockers along almost whole left wall and a bench along the other side to the door.
JR - how big is the room
DU - 6x4m maybe
JR - what time was your shift
DU - 2 till midnight

JR what did you do when you ended you shift.
DU - went round to say happy Xmas to others, sent a note to the testing lab, apologies for wasting NHS resources.
JR - then?
DU - went to changing room.
JR - wearing?
DU - scrubs and trainers. Jr staff wear raspberry scrubs

JR - men and women
DU - yes
JR - what did you see?
DU - it was empty, and entered at same time as others
JR - talking?
DU - chatting about Xmas, next shift, etc
JR - can you remember who went in first?
DU - no arrived roughly same time.
JR - where did you go when you went in?

DU - entered room and stepped where rucksack is in pic. As a rule I change in a corner facing the wall. I don't like people looking at me and also I'm conscious of the unpleasant attitudes some people have about trans people in changing rooms so I make sure I give no signals

DU - and it makes me feel safe.
JR - where is your locker?
DU - you grab whatever one.
JR - Which did you choose?
DU - not sure but near where that bag is. I like changing there.
JR - when changing, what did you put on?
DU - jean sand probably a t shirt and a jumper or hoodie

JR - shoes?
DU - my trainers I wear to and from work.
JR - then
DU - 2 others were still there and C entered the room
JR - when C entered the room, what was your body position?
DU - facing the lockers, or lockers and sink, I turned my head to see who came in.

JR - what did C do?
DU - she came in and walked towards the colleagues.
JR - refs pic
DU - describes position of colleagues
JR - any verbal interaction at that point?
DU - I don't recall it no, I may have been talking to others. Colleagues left at that point when I was in toilet.

JR - after changing what did you do?
DU - thought it was a long drive and went to toilet.
JR - were colleagues also changing?
DU - the 2 were, not sure about C. I was focussing on changing myself.
JR - colleagues left, where were you then?
DU - toilet cubicle. Heard door open/clo

DU - when I opened the cubicle door I saw just C
JR - then?
DU - went to sink to wash hand.
JR - C initiated conversation.
DU - C was standing at the end of lockers closest to sink
JR - body position.
DU - standing, looked comfortable facing me.

JR - how sere you feeling
DU - when I saw her and not my other colleagues I was anxious. ANy other time I had been in the CR she had left, so when I was alone with her I was anxious. The usual pattern is she knows I'm in CR she leaves. The way she was sat looking gave me the

DU - impression she was waiting for me.
JR - what did she say
DU - this is the women's CR it was inappropriate for me to be there, that she was intimidated and I shouldn't be there. That others felt similarly intimidated and I shouldn't be there

JR - what was the tone?
DU - clear, direct, maintained eye contact at all times, almost rehearsed sounding.
JR - what was her demeanour
DU - calm and ready to say something and she came out with that.
JR - your response?
DU - finished drying my hands. Apologised that

DU - she felt intimidated
J - repeat
DU - I apologised I explained I'm a woman and allowed to use the CR, there are channels she can use and this isn't an appropriate time or place to do it.
JR - the end?
DU - no it continued.
JR - who spoke
DU - she did

DU - she repeated it, that she understood I was undergoing some kind of process....
J - hang on (making notes)
DU - process but as a man I can't be in the CR. I said I'm not a man, this isn't appropriate and she should speak to someone more senior.
J - asks for pause.

DU - she said it wasn't safe for me to be there, asked what my chromosomes were, said it was analagous to the recent case, I assumed Isla Bryson...
JR - hang on please explain exactly the prisons comment
DU - she said it's like the situation in the prisons.
JR -what did you think

DU - I assumed she meant Isla Bryson, that she was comparing me to a sexual predator, there was an argument over men and women's estates
JR - she said you were a man, asked about chromosomes and prisons, how did you feel?
DU - awful, really really upset. I've never been spoken

DU - to like that. It was awful to be compared to someone like that. Someone casting aspersions on my people. I was upset and afraid actually I didn't know what it would mean going forward, would have to raise it but just wanted to extricate myself.

JR - why were you afraid?
DU - away from others, unlikely to be overheard, comparing you to someone who has committed terrible acts and they are confronting you and saying things about your community I was afraid. It was hurtful
JR - when did you write the note?
DU - maybe 25mins

DU - later.
JR - refs note. please read. you describe her cutting you off. describe from just before that.
DU - as in the note, she said others had similar concerns, I said I'd heard none, she said she was the only on who would speak up. Said didn't want to change

DU - in front of men. Bad experience with men. I sympathised and she cut me off saying you don't, if you did you wouldn't be changing in here.
JR - why did you say you understood/sympathised.
DU - didn't know her experience. As a woman I've also experienced everyday misogyny

DU - and patriarchy. I've been catcalled, touched on knee without consent, men have tried to hug me, made comments about my clothes. I empathise with that. Trans women and cis women are at risk. May not have same experience, but I was trying to understand based on my experience

JR - where were you when this happened?
DU - dried my hands, after first couple of sentences, stepped around C to the in
JR - ref picture, where was claimant?
DU - here she looked at me the whole time.
JR - what wa syour body position
DU - bent to pick up bag
JR - dressed?
DU -

DU - clothed the whole time
JR - you ref'd process of complaint?
DU - yes 3 or 4 times, every time she said something new, I would try and be calm and say I'm sorry you should raise this somewhere else.
JR - what was her response?
DU - carried on with comments, I'm indimidating

DU - shouldn't be here etc. eventually she agreed to raise it higher up and I left.
JR - you wnated the conversation to end why?
DU - it was deeply upsetting to have people say these things, I was upset and distressed.
JR - who ended the conv?
DU - hard to say. C said she would

DU - raise it, I may have said OK, it mutually ended like that.
JR - who left first?
DU - I did
JR - went where?
DU - tried to find consultant on call, overnight on A_E there's a registrar in charge and a consultant on call. If not busy consultant would be resting.

DU - so I knew likely Elspeth would leave a couple of hours after starting shift.
JR - where did you find her?
DU - went round whole dept at least once, asked registrar, found her eventually and asked for a conv.
JR - where did conv happen?
DU - well being room in A+E

JR - when?
DU - 12:10 roughly
JR - how long?
DU - 10-15 mins. Hard to judge as it was stressful and upsetting.
JR - how did you feel?
DU - upset I was crying a lot and struggling to get words out. TOok time to calm down enough to relay events

JR - when talking t o C did you see any signs of distress?
DU - not really, seemed wound up when she cut me off, not distressed. Angry, driven by anger.
JR - how could you tell
DU - body language, not breaking eye contact, directness of speech, repeating herself

DU - wouldn't stop even though not appropriate until she said she'd raise it.
JR - what did you say to Dr Pitt?
DU - explained what happened in CR
JR - said?
DU - went to toilet, came to wash my hands, C asked about chromosomes, compared it to prisons, said I shouldn't

DU - been there and I'd tried to deescalate it. I'd said there were processes and she didn't acknowledge that.
I told DP if C felt intimidated but I felt cornered and attacked and unable to get out of the situation. Gave brief background on other incidents, said sorry for keepin

DU - DP there but felt I had to say at the time.
JR - she said?
DU - she said it sounded like a distressing sitn, there wasn't anything she could do at this time, agreed to email Kate Searle and head of nursing A+E and said take time to think what I wanted to do

DU - a formal complaint or whatever. She thought it was wrong and was supportive and offered to walk me to my car.
JR - why did she walk you to your car?
DU - I suspect she knew I was really upset and so that I wouldn't have to have any interactions with anyone who might upset

DU - me on my way which was good as we briefly saw C
JR - when you got home what happened.
DU - Cried a lot, at the insistence of my wife I wrote an email to Dr Searle explaining everything everyone said and asking to see her when I was next in.
JR - can we turn to that email

JR - dated, timed 3:17am
JR - short break?
J - yes. 5 mins.

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