Thread by @tribunaltweets

We will be live tweeting day 6 of nurse Sandie Peggie (SP) v Fife Health Board and Dr Upton from 10am today, although late starts have been typical recently.

SP’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation

We anticipate early discussions to cover any new release of documents relating to SPs suspension, how investigation(s) were set up, and emails from Dr Upton's (DU) supervisor to A&E dept staff, including their metadata. This will be followed by cross examination of DU.

The employment judge has given specific directions to witnesses called by the parties to not read our, or any other coverage before giving evidence:

More background information on the case, our earlier coverage and press articles can be found at

If you would like to support our work please consider subscribing to our Substack via the above link.tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fi…

We endeavour to catch as much of what we hear in court as possible but our live tweeting is not a verbatim transcript. We make every effort to report accurately and will correct relevant inadvertent factual errors.

Abbrevs used:

C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor
R/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board
R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
JR - Jane Russell, KC, barrister for Rs
AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for Rs

J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
ET - Employment Tribunal
P1, P2 - additional panel members
CR - changing room
AE - Accident & emergency department
B&H - bullying and harassment
SocMed - social media
SM - Sex Matters
HR - Human Rights
TW - Transwoman
HI - hate incident

PCP - provision, criteria or practice is a rule/policy/ practice that can put ppl at a disadvantage based on certain characteristics. The term is used in employment law to assess whether an employers actions create different outcomes for employees based on their characteristics.

KS - Kate Searle, DU's supervisor and A&E consultant
ED - Esther Davidson, SP’s line manager
SF - Stuart Fraser, SP’s RCN Rep
AG - Angela Glancy, headed up SP's investigation
IX - investigation
CX or FC - (formal) complaint
DX - disciplinary
FtP - fitness to practice

Update: we are still in the lobby waiting for remote access to the hearing

J Morning everyone. Have been handed doc
NC It's the 2 pages of metadata we requested last week
J Has some been taken out?
NC Yes
J We can slot them in later then [discussing page numbers] I presume this is with consent?
NC Yes
JR We're having supp bundle printed off incl

NC Good am DU. I'm going to ask about permission to use CR. U first met w KS and u mention this in yr 1st interview w AG on p443. It was put to the C by JR that u had permission to use the CR. Can u reread yr responses. Do u agree [reads from statement re intending to use CR]

NC [my understanding wld be to contine using F CR] Isn't it true to say that y'd be doing this?
DU No, said was my experience. She agreed was the best way to proceed and wldnt say she acquiesced.
NC U were aware some colleagues may not be happy
DU disagree. Some ppl unhappy w

T ppl but [missed re GI]
NC Wasnt asking u about balance of interests. Asking u re the legal position & yr colleagues likely to be unhappy
DU I'd say they could be unhappy
NC Looking at formal complaint, you note [reads re using facilities aligning w my GI]
DU Is there a Q?

NC The Q is coming. U know some women will be unhappy
DU Not saying that. Some ppl have biased, misinformed unpleasant and bigotted or transphobic views about T ppl and was aware I might work w some of these ppl.
NC The reason is obvious. It's that yr male and wld expe as an

offence against their privacy.
DU I disagree that I'm male. Y'll have to ask them how they experienced me.
NC Re interactions w KS, It ws reasonable for u to get mgmt back up if problems
DU We agreed I cld use the CR, and expectation of it being discussed

If isses.
NC [reads re expectation of back up if had problems w women]
DU Clear my supervisior would take me seriously if I had issues. Isnt exclusively W who hold T'phobic views. It cld be men.
NC U said last week u wldnt feel comfy in M CR.
DU as a women I feel more at

risk from men from experience and the data
NC Wldnt women feel the same way
DU Yes, they are more at risk
NC For various reasons, they're objectively more dangerous arent they?
DU Yes, all violence more likely from men
NC We all know men are more risky re sexual crime?

DU whatever u mean by men, as in cis men who ID as men. That's my understanding of the word men.
NC It's right that every W in this room, and likely some men, do a quick RA of ppl around them in a lonely place re personal threat?
DU Yes, familiar w gut instinct

NC First test is mor F
DU No
NC But if a F y'r much less at risk
DU It isnt my primary thought
JR Not sure if you can determine about this. Is this relevant?
NC It's directly relevant to para ?33 on p31.
JR It's directed to R1 and not R2 to R2s answer not relevant to this

NC R2 is a witness so is legit for me to ask Qs that are relevant. He can speak on these issues
J Is similar to what's in WS but will aloow Q w reservations
NC I'm grateful. I suggest that lightning RA, as soon as ID as F the risk drops enormously unless there's another issue?

DU It reduces. Don't know if it plumits. Discussing gender expression, it's all about context. It's reduced if they present F but isnt the only or primary thing I consider
NC Leaving aside safety, another issue for women is privacy and dignity
DU Ppl have different feelings

and is more complicated than being gendered
NC Why dont u want to use the M?
DU Element of safety, also of dignity. I'd say safety.
NC Woemn feel modesty taboes more strongly and have them enforced more than men. The famous Levi ad from 1985, in which a beautiful man stripping

NC in a launderette. He's admired and reads a paper whilst he waits.
DU I'm not familiar w it, no
NC He's portrayed as cool, enviable and confident. He's not discomforted by stripping to underwear in front of strangers. But if a woman did that, it wldnt work. She'd look so

reckless and vulnerable wldnt she?
DU No, it's giving me a msg rather than showing how the world works
JR Madonna wldnt mind doing this so is an odd Q to put
J We have a wide latitiude. Are we coming to the end of this chapter
NC Have you seen the Beyonce advert?
J I know her

NC Are u familair w her take on the ad?
DU No
NC She's wearing more clothes. Even Beyonce cant strip to her undies
DU I think there's another reason. Ad rules, Bey not comfy w looking vulnerable
JR We dont have the ad here. he was wearing boxers that are similar to hot pants

NC It's right that women feel more [missed]
DU No. Modesty values depend on who they're with. men feel v modest in a urinal and big differences between men.
NC Can u agree that women have taboos placed upon them eg victim blaiming, and violence
DU As a woman I feel society

places values on me, incl on my modesty and dressing approp
NC If u say we're all products of our environment, they feel these more strongly
DU Some but not for all women. U cld argue it enforces heterosexuality, against queer ppl
NC But in general?
DU No

NC In any event, am I right that cos of yr own feelings, mend and women shld have bodily respect
DU All shld have privacy. All shld have cubicles. It isnt gendered I feel
NC But if not enough space for cubicles and given yr feelings re changing b4 men, sint it good there are

seperate M and W facilities
DU Yes, although some choose a cubicle and choose a separate space
NC Given resource restarints, good to have M and Ws and not all together?
DU Depends on what's available. A communal facility w cubicles wld be mixed sex. Prob better than one room w

everyone naked together
NC Y're aware of the law? the workplace regs on ?1992
DU Not specifically, but am sure there are regualations
J Likely to be relevant to this case?
NC Not knowlege of the law
J U can refer to it but put it to the witness? As not a lawyer or profession

J Yr getting close to the line
NC I will move on. Seperate facilities is familiar in lots of contexts eg schs, unis, sports centres, swimming pools and other public places.
DU Yes, that's familair
NC The reason is gen speaking W don't want to dress in front of M and vice vers

DU Yes
JR How can witness answer this. My swimming pool is mixed sex.
J It's generalisation
NC I'm asking R2 about his understanding is he violated these rules on the Cs case
J We're assessing the arg about all of this detail. The evid is Q of facts

NC But exploring his expectations and the reasons for these facilities. It goes to his intention
J Y're going back decades or centuries
JR My opponent refers to cultural mours?
J If it relates to R2s understanding is ok. Why SS CRs is a different Q we'd expect to see skilled

J witness for so maybe rephrase the Q so a matter this witness can give an opinion on
NC Is it yr understanding [sound gone]

DU - it might be modesty but might be historic ideas around purity etc.
NC - generally women don't want to undress infront of men, they find it intimidating and embarrassing. Whereas men generally don't want to undress in front of women is because they know women won't like it

NC - it's asymetric.
DU - I don't think wanting privacy is gendered. You'll find some women who don't mind and men who do. It's not general.
JR - it's also cultural, in Sweden for example
J - we aren't in Sweden, I don't have jurisdiction
JR - once a qu is asked and answered

Apols TT -
Judge - once question asked and answered you can't object.
NC - if a female nurse/dr is in her bra and pants and Chris walked in you would expect embarassment. yes?
DU - I don't understand relevance, why Chris?
J - just answer
DU - I would imagine so

NC - natural thing for Chris to do is back out apologising?
JR - I object, doesn't go to these issues, unless CHris is a transwoman, which I don't think is the case
NC - I refrained from interrupting JR last week on understanding there would be a lot of latitude. I'd be grateful

NC - for the same.
J - it is clear there's lots of latitude, it's up to JR if she wishes to object. At this stage I think we don't allow the objection.
NC - right thing for Chris to do the natural and right thing is to back out and apologise
DU - I think so, avert gaze and

DU - close door. If you find someone unexpectedly undressed you apologise
NC - lets call imaginary colleague Pete, big man, beard, deep voice. He enters CR where female nurse is in bra and pants. Suppose he doesn't back out apologising and just says hello and stays put

NC - nurse could interpret as a deliberate violation of privacy
DU - if he just stood there yes, if he didn't go to do something else that would be strange behaviour.
NC - suppose Pete doesn't leave, steps in and closes door. Is that menacing behaviour?

DU - third scenario?
NC - no a continuation, he closes the door. Do you agree, it's positively menacing?
DU - define menacing
NC - ordinary meaning
DU - could be but I couldn't speak to his intention.

NC - aside intention, reasonable for nurse to feel it.
DU - in that scenario you would find, well not everyone, but it could be menacing.
NC - fair to say unwanted conduct of a sexual nature?
DU - if being part naked makes it sexual, I agree it's unwanted conduct.
JR - what is

JR - sexual in that?
J - *quiet can't hear.
NC - is this not comparable to boys in a mixed school running into girls changing at a mixed school to intimidate firls?
DU - not been in that sitn, hope it's not common

NC - or when boys gather outside a cubicle and speculate about whether a girl has her period
DU - I don't think periods are sexual, they aren't discussing her genitals etc, it's sexist not inherantly sexual.
NC - back to Pete - easy to imagine nurse in that situation

NC - clutches top asks him to leave.
JR - I object, Pete could be a transman who is far along in transition and would be perfectly entitled to use the room. I think Pete eg is unfair and ridiculous
J - I'll allow and not objection
NC - we can simply say he is known to be male

NC - talks about low sperm count
DU - a cis man
NC - as you would say. If he stays and gets changed, that is menacing too?
DU - if someone has said they are uncomfortable and menaced, they could and I agree, presumably Pete is allowed to change here

NC - it's the female CR.
DU - she has said she's uncomfortable and has said it, yes I can see she would feel menaced. I agree it would be unusual behaviour by Pete. I don' tconsider the act of changing to be sexual or menacing, it's in conduct, proximity, knowledge that it matter

DU - doesn't imply intended menace even if experienced that way. Could be interpreted as menacing.
NC - Pete doesn't have to do anything other than be in there to create an intimidating and humiliating environment for the nurse?

DU - he could be a plumber come to fix the toilet, that's not the same, Pete changing or being in the space are not the same.
NC - we have already said he comes in seeing her undressed and is now undressing in the room.
DU - Pete is doing something, undressing knowing

DU - she's uncomfortable, what are you saying
J - don't answer with questions
DU - I don't understand
J - if so say so, don't ask questions, it's a quirk of the rules
NC - you say your presence in CR is completely unlike the Pete sitn?
DU - yes

NC - I need to ask why, through questions with preamble. These are qu that are yes no, dont' want to be unfair, there is a general qu to explain in own words. But for now I guess the reason and you tell me if I'm right. You've not told Tribunal about medical treatments you had

JR - object to questions on R2's appearance. It is demeaning, appearance is not relevant. Only C's perception is relevant. Am disappointed NC hasn't reflected on use of terminology and impact of choices on R2.
NC - goes to heart of case. R2 says he agrees Pete shouldn't

NC - be in there as a cis man, but he is as a transwoman, in that scenario he is a man.
JR - it is agreed he had permission, the heart of the case is about the list of issues. Was C harassed in the ways listed. Questions to be asked are demeaning and hurtful.

NC - it is essential, the first answer is employer cannot give permission to harass. So permission is tangentially relevant. What matters is what he did and what the effect was. He says he is entitled because he's a woman. C says not because hes a man. His legal status is man

NC - can't be because of medical treatment because it's not been mentioned. SO I need to know why he says he's a woman.
JR - *missed*
J - understand objection, but may be arguments over perception and reality potentially relevant to at least some of the issues.

J - have to take on board the impact of qu, I will watch that carefully, there is a line past which appropriate. Potentially relevant to arguments, don't know what they are yet. I will allow questions, carefully and slowly.
NC - grateful. Qu no mention of medical treatment

NC - hoping for Y/N answers, with ability to explain later.
JR - sorry witness can explain
NC - I don't pretend I can limit answer, it's open to do so,..
J - witness can answer as sees fit
NC -no mention of medical treatment so you don't think that is what makes a woman

DU - don't think trans identity is contingent on treatment for anyone, just as a cis woman couldn't be barred from F CR if she has a hysterectomy.
NC - not tld C lawyer or tirbunal if you hold a GRC, so that doesn't make a difference either?
DU - don't think a GRC is needed for

DU - transpersons identity to be respected.
NC - is the difference that Pete has a beard and short hair, and you shaved yours and grew yours?
DU - I don't think the beard is relevant, there are cis women with facial hair, a butch lesbian can have masculine appearance

DU - but identify as a woman.
NC - is it that you have a slimmer build?
DU - short men can use the gents, I don't think build is relevant, female body builders use CR
NC - is it that you wear womens clothes and make up?
DU - this is about gender expression, that doesn' tneed

DU - to match gender identity?
NC - is the diff that you speak in a softer higher voice htan other men?
DU - again I'm not a man, but there are women with low voices, and men with high ones, some people use it for gender expression
NC - so what is it that makes you a woman?

NC - is it that you say you are a woman?
DU - if people are sincere about how they want to move through the world I don't see why that shouldn't be respected.
NC - does it follow from these answers about build, hair, clothes, speaking all can vary independently of GI

NC - does if follow that big bearded manly looking Pete is able to say I'm a GNC woman?
DU - I can't say how Pete feels. If that were the case, like for any GNC women there would be challenges. like for any GNC person there would be challenges.
NC - do you say if Pete sincerely

NC - believes he's a GNC woman, no surgery, no GRC, no treatment, no presentation - it seems you are saying if he says he's a GNC woman I want to use the F CR that would be his right?
DU - if Pete was a real person I think it would prompt tricky conversations about what we view

DU - as a women and expectations and as a trans person in a transphobic Society, trans people are not unaware of what they look like.
JR - they are not delusional or fantasists
DU - society is not at a point where it understands GI, all trans people want is to be understood and

DU - safe. We don't knwo what conversations Pete has had with her employer, what process he's undergoing, this scenario is fantastical it's hard to say.
NC - he wouldn't be the first bearded man to say he is expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman.
JR - is this a

JR - specific person?
NC - don't need to go further.
JR - Also someone is sketching my client. Goes against regulations.
J - please stop sketching. 5 minute break.

@threadreaderapp please unroll

This morning will continue here:

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1888926020603986197