Thread by @tribunaltweets

This is part 2 of the afternoon session of Sandie Peggie vs Fife NHS Trust & Dr Upton at employment tribunal.

You can read our coverage of earlier sessions on our substack page
tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fi…

The court is taking a short afternoon break and will resume around 14:50.

[We expect the session to begin with any re-examination of DU by JR]

[some missed because audio did not start immediately]

[Panel asking Qs]

[Q is re where was DU in CR]
DU: The photo is not of my bag, I meant that where that bag is, is where I was standing. I was at sink - you see there are two, I had washed hands at further one, dried hands there

DU: C was standing sort of at the end, had to walk round her and ended c where bag is.

P: [sound v poor]
DU: I knew nothing re photos until I saw bundle.
P: I think you referred to a manager, supervisor, and an educational officer?
DU: Can't recall if she is clinical supervisor or not - not my line manager.

DU: KS role is to keep eye on my welfare but also to make sure I am keeping educational requirements up to date. A point of contact to help me but also keep me moving forward on medical education.

P: So your line manager?
DU: Don't think I've ever had contact. In ER the manager is the senior doctor there at any given time - different from other areas.

P: you said you talked to KS re CR [missed]
DU: correct
DU: Yes, told KS had used female CR at previous workplace and was just checking with KS that was fine for me to do that here.

P: Was that with Fife NHS, previous jobs?
DU: Worked in Fife, but I think technically was NHSEducation while in training, and then [names hospitals]

P: and the incident 28/12, you say went to cupboard for scrubs. Where is the cupboard?
DU: Bit of a labyrinth in A&E. [describes areas, corridor round the top with CRs, other corridors, scrubs cupboard is, you have to go all the way round]

P: So scrubs then go to CR
DU: Yes and typically via fridge to drop off lunch, and sometimes handover room depending on shift.
P: And afterwards?
DU: Big laundry bag outside CR to drop scrubs in

P [A Q]
DU: Yes when I panicked and left CR I grabbed bag but forgot scrubs and had to get more.
P [A Q]
DU: Yes the nurses and doctor scrubs are kept separately [I think this is what is said but sound not great]

J: First time you discussed with anyone about use of CRs was with KS, about 2 weeks in?
DU: Yes I think so - discussed re trans in psych induction, but I think not CRs or toilets.

J: So a couple of weeks in, with KS - any discussion of EDI?
DU: Don't think so - KS said not aware of any policy, that there may not be one.
J: You mentioned a Sarah Richardson, her role?
DU: {missed} -
J Q?
DU: She has rotated out.

J We have heard a Rhianna mentioned, do you know surname?
DU: Not sure [has a guess]
J Her role?
DU: I think healthcare assistant.
J: Still in role?
DU Not sure, might be maternitiy leave

J: Q re another person?
DU: Not sure how to spell the name, would have to look up, don't think she's still at the hospital.
J: A Fiona mentioned?
DU: Yes, think she's still at the hospital

J: So if necessary we could ask a couple of people what you were wearing at various point?
DU Yes

J: How long on 24/12 between you going in, and going to the toilet?
DU: About 5 minutes?
J: And they were also changing into civilian clothes?
DU I imagine so but not looking

J: And F still there when you came out?
DU: Yes
J: [page ref] your iv with AG: you say you can't remember which order people left, but that one left before you went in and the other while you were in the toilet? Did you say goodbye or anything
DU Maybe

[I must have got either the Q or the yes wrong in the first question in previous tweet as it looks as if DU immediately contradicted self]

J: This response looks odd?
DU: Agree - can't explain that
JR: Q5 says this?
J: But this is answer to Q6
DU: yes can't explain.

J: You say here, can I refer to notes. What are you meaning?
DU: My phone notes.
J: Did you show AG your notes or just read them?
DU: I think, just read out

J: P263 You say SP told you women have right to feel safe, then in quotes 'it's like that [missed] in prisons' - is that a direct quote
DU: Yes I think verbatim
J: You talk of proper channels. Did you know what those were at that time?
DU: No but assumed nurses wd have policies

J: Did you know of any?
DU: Not particularly - assumed NHS Scotland policies etc

J: When you left, did you have outerwear - jacket or something?
DU: I assume so, but can't say for certain

J: This note - I think you said written on the spot, in the car immediately. What time?
DU: 12.30-1?
J and how long to drive home
DU: usually c 50 minutes

J: This email is dated 3.17 am, how long did it take you to prepare?
DU: Don't know
J: Can you recall process of composing?
DU: Think I would have typed out in word or an email, referring to the phone notes to help my recollection

J: You say SP 'often' leaves the CR, what do you mean by 'often'?
DU: I meant the two previous times
J: You were not on rota then till 28/12
DU: Yes

J: Your email to BMA p 739 to AW. 27/12 13:09 [I think] you say "thank you" re a discussion, so there was a disccussion between the boxing day email and this one. Do you recall that?
DU: It says 'as we discussed' so prob means a phone call but I can't recall.

J: You can't recall the conversation?
DU: I think it was a short thing, just about referring me to correct point of contact for Scotland

J: [another email] did you reply to this?
DU: Yes I think I sent emails btwn me and KS, I think another email chain, and the Datix policy, and I think the 'hate incident' doc - I think all in bundle

J: [page] 3/1 you send 'hate incident' message rather than the doc you had Mr Ronald's comments on. Can I clarify, did you take out the bits Mr R had recommended taking out, or different way of editing?
DU: Think I copied relevant bits from R edit.

J: So 'hate incident' is a subset of 'formal complaint'
DU: yes, probably the odd edit to make flow properly but yes

J: What is your definition of 'ciswoman'
DU: someone born female who is comfortable with gender identity 'woman'

J: What is the difference btwn 'cis woman' and NC use 'literal woman'?
DU: I hadn't come across the 'literal woman' term till now
J: do you think they mean the same group of people
DU: Yes that's what I think

J: When did you first see [page ref]
DU: I think, as part of the bundle
J: It's dated 3/1, we have heard that first bundle was 20/12, can you place in relation to that?
DU: I think maybe 2 weeks before the 3/1 hearing

DU: But if bundle sent after 15th I didn't see it until then. Advised not to -
J please don't tell us your legal advice!
DU: Sorry. So, I skimmed the bundle paying most attention to bits I thought I'd be asked about

JR: I have just a few points to cover
JR: at start of cross-ex and throughout you were asked Qs whether you aware that other ppl than C unhappy with you using CR. Did anyone other than C make you aware
DU: No nobody raised concerns or said unhappy

JRL P653, this is the layout plan. And see p659 shows toilets and sinks, this one shows lockers and door. You gave evidence you walked past C to get your bag, What stage of the conversation was this.

DU: C started the convo re this is women's CR
JR: Where were you?
DU: Still by sink then. Had to walk past C to dispose of paper towel.
JR: And when you got to where the pink bag is, where had the convo got to?

DU: That was about when she said to me, I understand you're going through some process. B4 that she'd said re intimidated etc.
JR: So this is just before mention of chromosomes
DU: Yes

JR: p736. This is your email to BMA 26/12. 2 pages in you were taken to p beginning "v upset with recent escalation", it was suggested you were trying to have C sacked (even tho word not used).

JR: You refer just here to a concern you had, what was that?
DU: That she would rally colleagues to her cause, that untrue allegations would be made about me
JR: [reads] concern she would oust you from dept?

DU: that she would use my refusal to agree with her harassment as a challenge, to organise moves to get me moved from that ward, the department.

JR: you were asked re Mr Ronald, about p924. Or rather, cd you explain the extent of your work with Esther D about her investigation.

DU: I heard that Dr Curran had been given the datix, was told C had been suspended which surprised me but they explained it was a neutral act to allow the ix. Then discussions with KS and ED getting statement done.
JR: Anything else?
DU: Not that I recall

JR So back to p964, 15/1 to Mr Ronald, what are you sending?
DU: What he had asked for
JR: And it's what follows here?
DU: Yes

JR: Emails here to Ms Curran and KS, various?
DU: Yes
JR: if you look at p933 - email from Mr Ronald (BMA) to you 15/1/ 14:09, and look at p748 - same email on this page?
DU: Yes it's the same email

JR: p262 in main bundle. This is re 24/12 incident. You say colleague leaves, you go to bathroom, other colleague leaves, you say 'she's still hovering' - can you describe where this means you and she were standing?

DU: me by toilets, she presumably, must be between me and door, me and the lockers, in the middle

JR: You were asked when first reported re resus incident. You can see here you describing it to the investigation?
DU: Yes that's me describing it to the investigation

JR: You were asked about forwarding a KS email, p294 I think? To Robert Ronald?
DU: Yes that's it

JR: You were asked whether you were trying to end SP career, can you describe to panel consequences for your career if found to have harassed C?
DU: Quite a serious thing, I imagine there would be referral to GMC re fitness to practice, cd be a conduct hearing at work

DU: If found to be harassment wd be v difficult to continue working bcs even if GMC / work ix didn't find unfit then anywhere I worked and used women's CR wd be risking complaints, would maybe being outing myself the whole time

DU: GMC proceedings wd be pretty serious re continuing as a doctor, but there's also the humiliating nature of constantly being outed.

JR: Last Q, at end of 3 days of questioning in which you have been constantly misgendered. C counsel called you a man, who does not care about women. Accused of immersive role play.

JR: Compared to torturer in 1984, who waterboarded s/o. How do you feel about all this?

DU: Has been horrendous. Am someone cares a lot about others, much empathy. Horrible that bcs of being myself it is taken as comparable to torture. Examples comparing to imaginary Pete hyperbolic. Denial of my self. DIsrespectual and uncessary.

DU: Have been treated horribly, this tribunal has been harassment. Not just for me but for all trans people in the country, just trying to be themselves.

J: Thank you doctor, evidence concluded. You can stay or not as you wish for the rest of the proceedigns.

J: Suggest we start at 10 tomorrow. Who is witness?
JR: Esther Davidson.
NC: Will need to ask ED about all the new material, but also about material we will ask for searches of -
J You haven't asked for, let along got order?

NC: No but I think we can see there still seems to be much missing material and we shall be making a request for an order and will want to ask ED about it. So our suggestion is take 2 other witnesses, Vic Valentine and Isla Bumber, bcs any lacunae won't affect them.

J: It is respondent's decision.
NC: Not really -
J: In this jurisdiction it is.
JR: Can we have a 5 minute break?
J: Indeed
[BREAK]

JR: Can we release witness?
J: Thought I had
[DU leaves witness box]

JR: NC and I have discussed. We would like to call ED. There is likely to be further documents released overnight, we accept may mention ED and we may need to call her back another time.

JR: Then VV and IB on Friday.
JR: And re timing, we are looking at July -
J July?!
JR: Before all are free. We think 5 days needed, 2 for subs and 3 for evidence.

J: I hate part hearings and will double-hate if we have to go part-heard again. Are you sure 5 days is enough? Would much rather allocate too much than too little time. I think fix 7 days. Even if too many.

NC: Do tribunal have July days to let us know about?
J: Not yet
JR: July is Scotland school holiday months.
J: It is. We shall finalised dates tomorrow. July is unfortunate, but if we have to we have to.

J: We may have request for new order, or variation of existing order, coming up. Anything else?
JR: We accept further productions will be needed, but will be looking for an element of proportionality.

NC: It is likely we will ask to add KS as individual respondent, and with specific act of her all-staff email as a detriment.
J: So we may have quite a lot to consider.
JR: Yes. But keen to hear ED tomorrow, we have put her off twice.

J: All right, we will start at 10 am tomorrow and will aim for 10 promptly.

[END OF SESSION]

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