Thread by @tribunaltweets

Second half of morning session will start soon. See morning thread for background and abbreviations.

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1889966588264435947

We resume.
JR - we left things on 4 January with the letter, skip forward to 8 Jan, KS email to IB at 15:18, 3rd para down says that KS has had a chat with MC and ED.
ED - the only discussion I had with IB was about the TW using the female CR, and the chat I had with MC was

that she had been given the same advice, that DU could use female CR.
JR - now another email; what does this relate to, is she referring to you
ED - I don't think it's me, I had only that one convo with IB is August and no other convo
JR - lovely, now moving on to 12 Jan

JR - KS email to DU on 12 Jan, to DU, you were CC'd. Would you read that to yourself and what you make of that
ED - I was the designated lead for the IX and I wanted DU to put into writing what the complaint was
JR - who decided you were the lead
ED - Gillian Malone, that was

later changed because clearly I was going to become part of the IX.
JR - why clearly part of the IX
ED - because SP had spoken with myself, I had taken advice about the CRs.
JR - when was that changed
ED - I think in February, probably near the end of Feb
JR - who was new lead

ED - it was Angela Glancey
JR - who decided,
ED - HR and senior management, head of nursing, Gilian Malone (GM) ,
JR - who made you original IX lead
ED - GM, in that meeting in early Jan
JR - how were you told
ED - verbally by GM and Angie Hammond from HR.

JR - email from KS to DU and you. what do you make of that
ED - I had asked for a summary of what had happened, I thought this was clarifying by DU waiting on BMA, getting back to her on her statement,
JR - email from you to DU, read that what did you want DU to provide

ED - I wanted DU to provide a written description of what happened on 24th
JR - you said it would be good to have this in writing what did you mean
ED - I had heard there was this other incident with SP leaving the cubicle with the patient, but I wanted the Xmas incident

so I could begin planning the IX.
JR - you said could give background when interviewed what did you mean
ED - about any other incidents in the CR and the cubicle obs incident.
JR - then you said I want a statement by 25 Jan what was that
ED - i was giving DU a deadline for

the statement, in advance of a meeting
JR - now the Teams invite, is that the meeting, who was at that meeting
ED - it was supposed to be Michelle but she was off sick and Anne Hamilton (AH) took over from her so she was there. AH was giving me the template to fill out, I had

already had much of this info. But she said time was going on and we had to get moving.
JR - what did you say
ED - I said I wanted to start getting dates in the diary to speak with people, this is before I knew I would be removed as IX
JR - now looking at suspension checklist

did you refer to this
ED - on 3 Jan, AS brought down this checklist and we referred to it.
JR - email DU to ED: what was DU saying
ED - confirming I would have statement by deadline
JR - another email from DU to you on 23 Jan, what saying
ED - giving me an attachment with

summary of incident and saying to let DU know if any thing else needed
JR - is this the doc attached? Entitled hate incident?
ED - yes
JR - you mentioned a template, is this the template?
ED - yes
JR - that was the Teams meeting on 18 Jan
ED - it's an IX planning doc, it an aid

its an aid to planning the IX
JR - who decides on witnesses
ED - initially it would be me but others would emerge as it went on
JR - which witnesses did you choose?
ED - DU, SP, LC
JR - why LC
ED - LC was the first person involved on 30 Dec

JR - it says incidents in CR, what does that mean
ED - I needed to hear both sides
JR - what does incidents of avoidance mean
ED - when SP would leave the room if DU came in
JR - now an email from you to DU what does it say
ED - I said that it was clear that there had been a

an incident, very upsetting but that we shouldn't talk about it.
JR - moving on, decision to extend suspension in February, why only 4 weeks in beginning
ED - I was hopeful the IX would be finished and HR had the idea that SP could come back in another area, clearly I was

hoping that we could resolve the situation quickly.
JR - now AS, who is that HR
ED - no, she's our service manager, a manager
JR - what are you telling her there
ED - that suspension was expiring, that I had made a referral to occup health, to see what support we could offer

SP, they hadn't been in touch, I told them where we were in process, they said had a backlog, but gave her an appointment, the letter was informing AS that we needed to continue the suspension because we had not found a solution, and we needed to get occ health moving.

JR - now occ health form, filled in by MSF,
NC - corrects JR, EDs signature
ED - we fill in the form and it gets sent electronically
JR - email to AS, you feel there is a need to increase suspension for further 4 weeks, why
ED - because nothing had changed, we hadn't started

the IX, we hadn't found a solution to interaction with SP and DU. AS was the designated contact person, she should keep in touch with SP.
JR - why hadn't the IX it started
ED - we were waiting for an okay from Occ Health that SP was fit to participate in IX, and AG was taking

over IX,
JR - 14 Feb, what is this
ED - at the time, as nurses we do this a lot, we make a little statement to yourself, often we have to give evidence to police, so we do this 'statement to ourselves' (presumed from SP)
JR - she sent this to you by fax,
ED - yes

JR - what else did you do
ED - I was not able to progress the investigation
JR - now looking at the IX checklist, describe to tribunal what actions you took
ED - SP was offered to have union rep, she declined,
JR - what meeting
ED - 3 Jan. She was told she being suspended

the reasons for the suspension, she was given a name of someone to contact who was a neutral person, told she would have to be available for the IX, that's basically it
JR - suspension review meeting 7 March, email to SP copied to you, about that meeting

JR - and the suspension risk assessment, who completed that assessment
ED - (reading no answer)
JR - do you think it was you
ED - I don't know
JR - 2 notes, who wrote these, take a moment to read those,
ED - I think it may have been Charlotte,

JR - other note of meeting by Stuart Fraser, RCN officer who accompanied SP
(reading)
who attended that meeting
ED - myself, SP, SF, Lottie,
JR - what was the topic of that meeting
ED - the suspension was now two months, we were looking at ways to bring SP back to work to

support her at work, how to do that
JR - what was discussed
ED - HR suggested that SP could go work in a different area, but SP wanted to return to her area of work
JR - what area of work
ED - quite often when IX going on we might move someone from a med ward to an ortho ward

JR - just a diff department, who suggested that
ED - I think that was me
JR - what was SPs response to different dept suggestion
ED - SP did not want that, she wanted to work in the same dept
JR - how did SP respond to different shift suggestion

ED - we thought that moving to a day shift, there would be senior staff around, it would give SP support
JR - why senior support appropriate
ED - we thought SP needed support back into the workplace she'd been off for several months, and we had senior staff to support her

JR - was there any other concern
ED - we wanted to offer her support and make sure no interaction with DU
JR - why did she reject shift change
ED - was going to be difficult for SP to work days because she had a dog, and so we offered shorter shifts on the weekends,
JR - when

did she return to work
ED - she came back on day shift, we did half shifts,
JR - when was that
ED - I think the end of March
JR - SF note of meeting, read specific para please, a description of SPs beliefs, when was the first time you had understood those to be her beliefs

ED - i think that was August because SP said at that point she didn't want to share changing room with DU.
JR - anything else you learned in this meeting
ED - SPs belief had not changed
JR - re different shifts, different departments, what are the rules on that

ED - people are offered different work when they can't do the job they were doing and during or after an IX
JR - email from Lottie to SP, what is she saying there
ED - telling SP she is coming back to work, potential shift pattern, make an opposite shift pattern to make her not

interact with DU, and telling SP I would be in touch about planning return to work.
JR - ref to post meeting phone call, who took part in that
ED - I presume SP and Lottie,
JR - not you
ED - no
JR - 24th March phone call,
ED - I think that was when were trying to work out

a time when she could come back, I think I made that phone call.
JR - what did you say
ED - we were trying to find the solution to her coming back, looking to plan a date and a time for her to come back to work,
JR - your email to Lottie, read and tell tribunal what you were

telling Lottie
ED - I was giving lottie a quick catch up on where we were at, I was going to be off on holidays, I had been in contact with HR, SP would contact Lottie when she was back from annual leave, just giving her an update on where we are
JR - letter on 28 March

letter about suspension and return to work, have you seen before,
ED - I haven't been CC'd but I think I know the gist, (reading)
JR - reasons for return to day shift, would you describe your understanding of that reasoning
ED - as I said before was so that we could support

SP back into working, to limit contact with DU, allow us to start IX, and get SP back to work, confident we could manage that.
JR - another email
ED - Lottie was keeping in touch with SP, trying to get her back to work, her manager was off on long term sick, confirming that SP

would come back on 4 week phased return, she would come back as soon as possible.
JR - now email about return to work, what is your understanding of what's being said there, ref to compromise what was that about
ED - we were bringing SP back to on weekends only, we were trying

to find a common ground, to get her back to work, with senior support
JR - what is this other reference
ED - we wanted there to be a band 7 on all of SP's shift, so not evening work
JR - a suggestion of a band 6 what was that about
ED - but no one in Band 6 had any knowledge

of the IX,
JR - why not acceptable,
ED - we had not discussed it
JR - now from Belinda Morgan (?), a new name
ED - thats our general manager
JR - what was that about designated contact person
ED - Lottie had taken over AS role as designated person during AS sick, but Lottie

would retain that role, as being fair to SP.
JR - email, cc'd you, what is that
ED - correcting Belinda, Lottie has been filling in for AS, but someone else is contact person
JR - now about the return to work, 19 April what form
ED - face to face
JR - what was said

ED - we felt it was going well, no issues, managed rotas so no interaction with DU, we felt it was going well
JR - a couple of more emails, from AG to you, what was she telling you
ED - giving me a timetable for the IX, and could I attend then
JR - your reply
ED - told I was

on a day off, but available anytime after 12, I had a dental appointment
JR - now your IX report what date is that
ED - 26 April,
JR - I have no further question.
J - time for a break, back at 1:40
NC - can we have a slightly longer lunch as there is much to consider from that

material.
J - until 1:50 then. How long for your xx NC
NC - realistically we will go into tomorrow
J - what witnesses do we have tomorrow:
JR - Isla Bumba, Louise Curran, Lauren Harris.
J - ambitious, but lets see.
Court rises.
Morning session, part 2 ends.

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