Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good afternoon & welcome to day 7 of Newman vs Metropolitan Police. Melanie Newman was a trainee police constable with the Met Police and is claiming harassment and direct discrimination on the grounds of her gender critical beliefs
We expect start time around 2.15-2.30PM

Ms Newman alleges that during a Trans Day of Visibility event, the presenter delivered a politicised, one-sided view of a complex debate and demonised the views and arguments typically put forward by people with the protected characteristic of gender critical belief.

Ms Newman alleges the presenter also portrayed safety concerns about trans identified men in female-only spaces as irrational and in need of correction by trans advocates including the police.

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Abbrevs:
MN/C = Melanie Newman, claimant
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for claimant
MP/R - Metropolitan Police, respondents
AM - Aileen McColgan, KC, barrister for respondents
J - Employment Judge Morton
P1, P2 - M Marenda, G Mitchell panel members

TDOV - Trans Day of Visibility
EE - Eva Echo, TDOV speaker, male claiming female gender identity
SA - Saba Ali, TDOV speaker
SC - Shea Coffey, TDOV speaker
SR - Steph Robinson, TDOV speaker, set up ‘trans police network’ male who claims female identity

CC - DCI Charlotte Cadden, now retired
KM - Kit Moore, Intelligence analyst & Trans lead of LGBT+ Met police Network
KE - Karl Eccott, Met sergeant
BBF - Brigid Beehag-Fisher, Acting Chief Superintendent
NL - Inspector Nick Lockeyear

KJK/PP - Kellie-Jay Keen AKA Posie Parker, women rights campaigner
SFW - Standing For Women, Kellie-Jay Keen's organisation
TDC - Trainee detective constable
RWN - Women’s Network of Respondent
S - Superintendent
NPCC - National Police Chiefs Council

DPS - Directorate of Professional Standards
LVW - Lesbian Visibility Week
TRA - Trans rights activist
GRC - Gender recognition certificate
GC - Gender critical
G/x - Grievance
WS - Witness Statement
MSP - Member of Scottish Parliament
EA2010 - Equality Act 2010

BCU - Borough Command Unit
PACE -Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984
RLGBTN - Respondents LGBT network

Reminder, this is not a verbatim transcript. We report in good faith and make every effort to be accurate.

Please note, we are accessing the hearing remotely and hearing some of the speakers can be challenging. We will do our best so please bear with us.

[HEARING RESUMES 1420]

[We start mid way through convo with new witness Daniel Smith (DS)]

NC - Implicit if lessons to be learned something had gone wrong?
DS - Not necessarily

[For clarity this is DCS Daniel Smith]

NC - [reads MN 'upset she had to out her views'] Again you no reason to doubt [reads]?
DS - Yes no reason to disbelieve
NC - U thought MN genuine?
DS - yes
NC - U thought genuine she was horrified?
DS - No reason to doubt

NC - It says I was upset [reads 'isolation, no support network'] No reason to doubt genuine?
DS - No reason no

NC - Turn to page 614 and look at letter from Robert Frost [reads 'I'm only person who has spoken to her'] factually accurate?
DS - No reason to doubt

(Missed)
NC - Its right despite the way she's been treated her approach to this complaint has been consistant restrained and truthful?
DS - Yes
NC - Can I agree tribunal has no reason to doubt MN truthfulness?
DS - None I'm aware of

NC - Want to see if we agree on a few points, aware ur not a lawyer. PCs have a right not to be discriminated on faith grounds?
DS - Yes
NC - And things like vehanism opposition to CRT and GC, those kinds of things
DS - Yes assume they are
NC - Employers can't harass if they

Harass on those grounds
DS - Yes
NC - If an officer wants to pray in breaks as long as not disruptive that's fine?
DS - yes
NC - But doesn't mean incense everywhere and pray loudly in canteen
DS - Yes

NC - [cites Peelian principle] So that's foundational Yes?
DS - Yes
NC - Is it fair to say what that means is that the Met Police itself should be neutral and not pick sides on religions, brexit, CRT
DS - Part of what that says Yes
NC - Only institutional belief to uphold law?

DS - Yes
NC - Dedicated to truth (missed)
DS - Yes
NC - Murder investigation - u don't do seance to get in touch with victim
DS - No
NC - U smile bc it's ridiculous?
DS - Yes

NC - U cant take neutral position between belief and science
DS - Not in that example no
NC - Rape U are looking for a man Yes?
DS - Yes
NC - Not including women who identify as men bc they can't?
DS - Rape is with a penis so
NC - Similarly can't rule a man out bc dresses as a

Woman
DS - Individual circumstances aside re if they've had surgery to remove penis
NC - Evn if had had surgery recently might still be a suspect
DS - Yes lots of variables to consider
NC - Similarly religious assocciations and attack to mow down pedestrians,

It's relevant as to whether male or female as no female as done that
DS - Dont know the data on that
NC - We know men much more given to violent crime?
DS - Yes
NC - Considering a risk if person will be violent, a man who IDs as woman could still be considered

DS - This is where gets more complicated
NC - If u are allocating police resources to policing a protest if u know 40 or 50 angry young men, or WI protest middle aged women, need of police presence if different
DS - You said angry there so changes things

NC - I didn't spell out women were angry bit lets assume.
DS - U said the men were
NC - I did. OK 40 angry men and 40 angry women, there's a difference in risk level?
DS - Unreasonable. We've made mistakes by assuming things in the past. Based on 2 very large groups

It'd be inappropriate for me to comment.
NC - When ur doing police work, detecting crimes, assessing risk, u have to operate on basis sex is binary
DS - Sex is one factor we consider as much anything else
NC - Its real isn't it and immutable as no woman can be a rapist

DS - if trans hate crime then person's ID would be relevant.
NC - I want to ask a few Qs about unsuitablililty of EE to speak at police event. Turn to 645. This your review. We see that none of the others who spoke to u about event gave u the details that MN gave u

DS - No only other details were about transitioning as children
NC - U say [reads 'highly likely ppl don't remember controversial statements'] U hit nail on the head didnt u?
DS - Yes there were nuances to the arguments.
NC - More than nuance, some pretty hateful things

Were said about GC people by EE
DS - Cant remember
NC - EE said GC ppl and 'warped and twisted views'. U remember?
DS - Yes
NC - Its hateful towards GC ppl isn't it?
DS - Potentially

[J interjects but can't hear]
NC - I mean thoroughly unpleasant?
DS - Yes acceptable understanding of it
NC - Full of contempt for GC ppl
DS - I can understand why ppl would think that

NC - Turn to page 26. Social media posts by EE and SA. EE agreeing with someone [reads 'GC radicalised by their own hate'] and page 29, EE [reads 'like nazism'] and one more, EE [reads 'Joanne has abused platform - JK Rowling'] EE plainly is not fit to be associated with met?

DS - Some may be concerning but depends on context. Answer is depends.
NC - May well be in terms of intelligence gathering reads potential disturbance may be coming from it appearing on public platform at met police hes totally unsuitable?
DS - It depends on their experience

They may have
NC - Its reasonable that KM knew who was dealing with and agreed with views EE had
DS - Dont want to put words in KM's mouth

NC - We see a list there of 5 payments to EE totalling 807 pounds. We see he was engaged and laid by Met to appear at at least 5 events after TDoV
DS - Cant say what events were but yes

NC - Go to page. [EE on Kemi Badenoch and JK Rowling'] Shocking stuff isn't it?
DS - Yes but she's not police
NC - Even if says someone 'should be taken down from the world '?
DS - Yup

DS - Not easy to engage with some parts of communities. Would like to say would like to have known before to make a decision on
NC - Can u agree after that article no way EE should be promoted by Met police as someone they're engaging in?
DS - Cant say on a such a small selection

DS - We're not the moral police eg. If someone is organising a protest we may not agree but we have to engage to make sure its safe
NC - U dont mention Nicola Harding in ur review. Senior lawyer in met police. Present at event. She was best placed to know what amounted to

Harassment?
DS - Yes
NC - Shouldn't u have interviewed her?
Ds - (missed)
NC - Shouldn't u have at least cast eye down list to see who best to assist u?
DS - How?
NC - By telling u what was said and if appropriate

DS - We decided it would be voluntary only
NC - Do u think acceptable lawyer who was witness to the event is lawyer involved in this claim?
DS - (missed) We're professionals here
NC - TDoV invite widely shared?
DS - It was wide but can't say if 50,000 ppl

NC - You see more there [reads 'help share it'] Response to that from Sally Thomas [reads 'amazing I'll send out']. What's CLP?
DS - City London Police i assume
NC - [reads] I suggest widely shared in and out of organising?
DS - Yes that's quite wide

NC - Go back to learning review. The second paragraph u say [reads 'events deemed political'] U candidly acknowledge hosting event at NSY can give impression met is endorsing sides?
DS - I was talking in general

NS - Look at second paragraph under Kit Moore [ reads] Its clear that KM regarded this as Met endorsed event?
DS - No i say he's saying he's seen them speaking at other met events not endorsed by the Met

NS - [reads]
DS - That's not what I meant. Depends on who is organising the event (sound is difficult here)

DS - [Talking about Staff support association] Thats what were trying to do now and bridge the gap that everyone is on same page
NC - Its right you have put in place for future that speakers are properly vetted?
DS - In my team, culture and inclusivity we look at support

And look to offer that support.
NC - If these guidelines are followed properly things EE said at the event wouldn't be said in the future
DS - Yes but obvs can't stop people saying things
NC - (can't hear)

NC - The DPS declined the complaint as perceived it to be about EE?
DS - Yes I believe covered this morning
J - Cant hear
DS - Cant remember let me have a quick read

DS - So in terms of recommendation 3 of my statement -
J - Cant hear
NC - Turn to 63 of supplementary bundle. If u look at page 67, [reads] Thats the bullet points and look at bottom [reads 'expectations of ppl MPS engages with']

Nc - [reads 'must continue values of respect and tolerace'] Can be no doubt if that policy had been in existence and followed before TDoV EE would not have been invited and if had he'd not be permitted to speak in terms he did.
DS - In terms of

Being able to speak the way he did, they did, no, but invited yes
NC - Second para on page 339 where MN says [reads] Goes on to say [reads 'code of ethics Met police act impartially'] Then describes the event and talks about KJK name and hissing in response

In particular referring to hissing of name and she says [reads] Its clear from those passages that MN is complaining about Met personal and condoned and hissed
DS - Yes the response yes
NC - DPS simply said this was a complaint about EE and couldn't look into?

NC - What should MN do if this happened tomorrow
DS - We must remain impartial but not deaf. We now have GC network and MN requested such a network. MN can come in and discuss these issues and for advice

NC - MN had been complaining about TDoV since 2023 and WRN, Met should have found a way to deal with both internally and externally
DS - Inwasnt there at the time. Cultural understanding, we're trying to understand cultural sensitivities and have GC network now so have

Cultural understanding and what they means in terms of policing
NC - Page 526. Bottom of page Heather Binning says [reads 'invite u to arrange day'] That didn't happen did it?
DS : Not that I'm aware of. Wasn't here then
NC - She also says [reads]

That hasn't been taken up either has it?
DS - I don't know. I joined in April 2024. I have nonreason to disbeliev u.
NC - She also asked for advice on IAG and VAWG and that hasn't happened?
DS - Dont know
NC - So they were in effect given hecklers veto?
DS - Dont know

NC - Can u agree a good thing if u took all those offers up now
DS - Wouldn't make promises. We have GC network now. Depends where else it would fit. Normally led by staff. We don't have staffing to run for every single group amd network. I will say culture plan means we are pro

Inclusivity and that means to all
NC - U would understand why GC people wouldn't find the term pro inclusivity particularly reassuring?
DS - (Missed too fast)

[HEARING BREAKS]

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