Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good morning. We will be reporting from Day 5 of the Harriet Haynes (HH) vs the English Blackball Pool Federation from 10 am. A male player who claims a female identity has brought a discrimination case against the EBPF after being barred from competing in women’s tournaments.

HH is claiming discrimination on the grounds of the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.
See our previous coverage on our Substack here:
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Harriet Haynes vs Paul Thomson & Anna Goodwin (English Blackball Pool Federation - Chairman & Secretary)Pool Federation Challenged Over Female-Only Rule Changehttps://open.substack.com/pub/tribunaltweets/p/harriet-haynes-vs-paul-thomson-and?r=1gxdhb

The first witness in the morning session is expected to be Dr Emma Hilton (EH) Research Associate at the University of Manchester

Abbreviations J - His Honour Judge Parker

HH - Harriet Haynes, claimant

RW - Robin White, claimant’s barrister

CC - Colman Coyle, claimant's solicitor

EBPF - English Blackball Pool Federation

PT/D1 - Paul Thomson, EBPF chairman, defendant

AG/D2 - Anna Goodwin, EBPF secretary, defendant

SC - Sarah Crowther KC, defendants’ barristers, and

SS - Sapandeep Singh Maini-Thompson

JRL - JR Levins LLP, defendants’ solicitor

Witnesses
JG - James Goodwin, witness for defendant

BH - Dr. Blair Hamilton, sports medicine research at Manchester Metropolitan University (MMU), witness

PF - Joseph Formaggio, Professor of Physics at Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), expert witness

EH - Dr Emma Hilton, Research Associate, University of Manchester (MU)

DA - Dr Dave Alciatore, Colorado State University, witness.

W - Woman

TS - Transexual

TG - Transgender

TW - Transwoman

PC - Protected Characteristic

GR - Gender Reassignment

GI - Gender Identity

GRA - Gender Recognition Act

EA - Equality Act 2010

IPA - International Pool Association

EPA - English Pool Association

UPG - Ultimate Pool Group

PSSP - Physical Strength, stamina or Physique

We begin

J - Good morning. We have one more witness. Anything to raise?
An incident in court building, I can just say on behalf on def team, have recieved reassurances there won't be any further incidents. From our persp we are confident no further steps need to be taken

J - Anything Mr W
RW - equally confident
J - good thank you
J any other
SC 0- call EH

J Good morning [Oath is sworn}
[some housekeeping discussion}
Name and title
EH - dev biologist
SC - turn to page 389

SC - report by you. Have a look at it, when you get to 298, signature. Who's is it?
EH - mine
SC - next the start of 319
SC - this is the report produced by you and Dr H
at 340 there are two signatures, is the others yours
EH yes,

RW - you are a vocal advocate and trustee of Sex Matters. Re SM website -
RW on passport - TW should be recorded as male
EH yes but I don't have a position on others
RW driving licences?
EH - It is important to acc rec sex
RW not just a member but trustee

EH - we are there to oversee the mgt and work
RW but you do strongly support policies
EH yes
RW - in your first report - p294 p513 you say 'do not declare...'

RW - sig page 298 there are two formal paras you understand your duty of part 35 of cilvil proc rules and part of duty re own knowledge. You don't have expertist in puberty blockers
EH I have

RW in summary - the break is advantagous in the male not female game
EH correct
that is refelcting data I gathered after I made statement in orig report
RW - that isn't come from expert knowelge
EH it's coming from me obs 300 frames of pool

RW at time of joint report only add work done is done by vid
EH yes direct observations
RW when you say the female game, that's teh ones in the vid you saw
EH yes correct
RW back to report 5.1

RW ref to the figure we see at diagram over page
all of sports rep in diag are phys sports
EH the image shows a run down phys diff and how they relate to performance
RW - skelelton and musc
RW - not accuracy?
EH it inc features that are relevant shoulder width..

J repeat
EH you are engaging with a target and using body to aim at that target.
RW prescision sports doesn't apply
EH might not have to consider strenght without knowing the burden of playing for a very long time. Not same as football
RW snooker can it be compared to pool

EH - snooker table much larger
RW - children's pool table analygy
EH - I am ok with the anal
RW there must be therefore somewhere one crossses the line in between where range is
EH - if you are talkingabout field of play - then that is a quant diff, therefore sliding scale...

EH - but there is a sliding scale.
RW you accept quant analagy
EH yes but there are scaling efforrts. There of factors of geomotry
RW but it must be right there's an increase of weight of balls come a momement when it becomes relevant
EH - yes, as the ball gets heavier

RW - we don't have metrics in any of the reports that shows where any of those metrics are
EH no, and i think that you have to find the line by studying sport itself.
RW the law has to decide
EH the line is specific to the discipline

RW some societal
EH so eg one might easily understand a woman might not have as much practice time - social factors
Not studied ability to focus
We have data on testosterone and ability to focus/cometitiveness and they would feed into how a male plays pool RW -[talks about diff

between American and English pool
EH - just to understand - is something more gender effected than others. It's a binary answer
RW - if we come down to an extreme example where it is not
RW so as we increase teh factors - size, weight, whatever there comes a ,moment if we could

define an ave person there would come a time when we go over binary line
EH I don't think you can rationalise that by a scale of table. You can only look at how the sport is played and observe teh diff between sexes and why that sex diff emerges

Rw didn't catch question about last witness large number of factors/ We don't have metrics for individ factors and whether they effect indiv factors
EH - don't know how would apply to indiv metric
I think there are lots of things that would effect pool outcome, i

tend to think some of those things are not innate to sex, they are a function of the world we live in and some innate to phys differences
(missed one question)
RW -you are an expert in biological dev of human beings but you have said specifically you are not an expert in q sports

EH - when I was thinking about pool it was easy for me to see what phys properties I would have to look at
RW - at places in report you say 'likely' that's you predicting from your experience
EH yes and engaging in scientific language
RW you talk about 'may do this' less definite

EH - may and likely should be considered the same
RW - 'taller players' [refers to report] in this report there isn't evidence 'tall' isn't an outomce
EH the evidence suggests tall is not a strongly suggested but not a necessity but it can be an advantage.

Since this report I can accept that being tall can generate back pain
RW the cue ball all in eyeline
EH when aiming certainly. Your eyes as close as possible. both tall and short rotating their hips, a shorter person will be bending in the range of their biology.

Think being tall is associated with longer limbs, the height of hips and skelletal interaction with table.
[RW asks about size of hands]
EH missed answer
J - can I have a moment to catch up with notes.

[there was some questioning about size of hands and the impact of this]

RW asks about whether there are advantages to places hand
EH - didn't seek studies about flat hand on table
it wasn't one of the characteristics I scored
RW ref to report
EH - flat hands/cueing or bridges? Not something I scored
RW - ref to report -no study of perimeno?

EH there are studies more now tracking how menstrual cycle effects performance. First two weeks can be diff to second two weeks.
RW - physical effects of hormones. No study that looks at those
EH no I have ref standard NHS documents
RW no data?
EH not that I am aware of

RW to undertand the importance - one would need to understand level of effect
EH not clear you have to understand compar magnitude
some effects are smaller, some are bigger. the fact there is an effect feeds into it.

RW i understand but i will make submsision we don't know this effects (the outcome) [talks about percentages and margin of error and whether effect is significant or not
EW No a margin of error is about a data spread. You are not talking about a margin of error

RW trying to get to a diff between men and women and things effecting performand and ;which are important.
J - asks for clarification of question
RW - features that might effect play. We might find some are more important than others

EH - strength is clearly very meaningful. I am not clear on that [question]
RW - average strength is different. If looking at your evidence and if we were expressing in population terms we would end up with a mean and there is variation.

J please rephrase for my understanding
RW if we conducted study looking at diff factors that effect men and women we id when it does, those factors there is normal curve graph - men and women have a mean height. There is an average.
There is a standard deviation.
EH mmmmm

J - I don't understand the size of the graph?
RW diff metrics show diff shape of graph
EH I follow
And you agree
EH yes
RW - so hormone effects - until one has done a study and understands effects, won't have a graph can related to other graphs

EH in the case of absence of data point - eg menstrual cycle we can use data from other sports as to how strength changes and use that to inform to predict strength in the break
RW we don't have that info
EH we don't have that for cue sports but reasonable straightforward to do

The impact I would predict the need for focus and concentration, when you are bleeding/anxiouis/unpredictabbe - in those cue sports I think those effects will have a disprop effect
RW not data on this
EH no but perfectly reasonable conclusion and understanding female body

Missed some here. Discussion about breaks and what games EH watched
EH - watched players well ranked and matched and elite level. these are the matches typically avail.
RW - not average

EH they are trained and practiced players we know how gaps in performance tracked between and elite and average.
J can you give answer more slowly please.

EH when we look at gaps at elite level, gap is say ten percent, at average level the gap is wider. At elite gap is smaller between males and females.
RW - you used eg of 5k that is a very diff technique
EH I'm not sure I agree
RW in terms of cue shot

EH the break shot is a key part of a frame and it relies on strenght
RW precision more important in pool. Using athletics to draw conc about pool
EH I could talk about rugby - strength in scrum same diff between elite and average
using this as a marker for diff between

elite and average
dont see any reason that this would'nt translate to phys parts of game of pool
RW 'males power advantage..frame winning'...refers to report. Want to explore Prof Formagiio ceiling in terms of break.

EH that is quite complex power relationship. There is a power advantage for males because they have to use less of their capacity. For the female she has to use more of her power and there is less left over.

Judge clarifies discussion and RW question re diff between men and women. The woman is much closer to maximum than male?
EH if I'm understanding you are matching player a and player
Player B the man has more headroom, more in reserve
EH [males] have more in reserve

RW is asking about hypothetical scenarios
EH I'm not sure I understand can you reframe please
RW - [talks about headroom of player A and B's headroom]
EH to match output?
RW - yes
[Apologies it is difficult to transcribe this]

EH - asks to clarify about the percentages given in RW scenarios
RW what shot we are playing depends on power output
[missed]
EH the differences become less impactful to be clear, on matched outcomes
RW yes there are some assumptions

J - is it not right that if you are below a certain point so much headroom that it doesn't matter how much, it isn't an issue
EH i can think of shots where both plaers are below capacity.
EH we need to think about diff phases of play for issues of headroom.

J I understand there are big differences but this is a general discussion about headroom. Fine covered that
RW - reads from report - types of cues
EH - players using momentum while keeping control. Swap to regular cue [after break]
RW - 5.2.3 - [regarding shot selection]

EH - power sacrifice - when you are not at max effort. You have to be careful about ball position
RW the cut break
EH that i understand requires more power. With an ideal rack, a cut break gives you an advantage there.

RW 5.2.4 - two numbers from your observations, male player winning breaks
EH the male break wins 59 percent 51 female. The male break
EH 50 percent is random chance, 51 no diffm this not statistically diff to 50 percent.

EH I attempted to submit that data [referred to but missed]fThe male break at 59% is significant
RW [measures to exclude trans players. Uses golf analogy and fairway strength advantages
EW - golf is good analogy

RW but the green less differences? There is almost a split between fairway and green potting
EW that replicates the game of pool
RW - in broad terms it's an exact anal.

The way in which golf balances this is playing off diff tees - shorter distances to play. It is poss to balance diff in this way
EW generally handicapping is to match players across output. I am not expert on numerical handicap system

RW [using horseracing analogy] there is a way of handicapping
missed this bit
RW - refers to studies, it would be poss to score men and women in pool in terms of how they perform
EH it is my understanding the fargo rating does this.

Rw from that one could arrange indiv handicapping or form a view of an average between men and women
EH as a gen principle i accept that but it not clear in pool or EBP it is not clear a handicap could mitigate the difference.

RW you dont know how successful existing pool handicapping is?
EH no
RW would a handicapping system be less dicrim?
SC I would like to lay down marker that this is the first time that handicapping has been mentioned, not in evidence

J are you suggesting the possibility of some other approach
SC - yes because how am i supposed to respond to it
If the defendant suggested the rules should be changed

It would have been appropriate for my experts would have had time to respond this this. This is not forshadowed at all.
J not disputing that. Best if i allow the q to be asked and you can submit.

[there is some discussion between SC and J on rule changes and ability to evalute proposal]
RW - asks about a reports work on TW and people on a spectrum, asks about 'cis men and cis women' and tw 'absolute strength that is between the two'

EH sex hormones will mean loss of muscle mass in some metrics, tw have lower absolute strength but higher than female.
[some questions about absolute strength and outcome of sex hormones on male bodies]
RW you accept that for general population.

EH there is a nuance to add which is that when you have longit studies what you often see if that TW baseline for strength is slightly lower, and that is behavioural eg not engaging with sporting activities, not down the gym.
I am talking about ave population

RW tw are on one measurement phycially stronger than women but on relative strength are weaker
we are thinking about level of advantage a tw would have. They are above or below cis women

EH arm stability and muscle, shoulder back muscles are absolute. Counter with core is absolute strength
EH arm velocity is absolute strength
Core is absolute
The meaning of the retention of absolute strength, my opinion is the majority of strength is retained.

[missed this due to sound quality]
There is some discussion about relative v absolute strength. Bending over table for break shot
EH stance is importance
RW this is relative?
EH in the sense that you are supporting body against gravity

RW you need that to bend over
EH you move the full spectrum, you will have to resist falling over.
RW it's not just falling over you need to hold stable position

EH lots of players have dynamic position using absolute strength, but as a proportion relative strength is a small part of it

@threadreaderapp please roll up