Thread by @tribunaltweets

Peggie vs NHS Fife & Dr Upton - Morning session 17 July, part 3

J - reminds GM to please speak as loudly as possible, struggling to hear her
NC - email from JHurkiss to colleagues: ED was on board with my advice, impossible to keep them apart, advice was to suspend after discussion with GM. The real reason for the suspension was a need to

protect DU from SP.
GM - I've said already it was about the risk assessment.
NC - what if SP raised again that DU was a man and shouldn't be in a woman only space.
GM - I wouldn't know, a convo between J Hurkiss and ED.
NC - before the break, you agreed, that patient safety

allegations were raised because SP did not want DU in her CR.
GM - it came from the Datix
NC - the whole process was set off by the convo on Christmas Eve,
JR - my note doesn't say because of,
NC - I thought she did but we can check the transcript this evening

J - do you want to reframe the question
NC - the patient care allegations only arose after the Christmas Eve incident, it was prompted by the Christmas Eve allegation.
GM - the reporting in the Datix suggests that there were other concerns of Beth.
NC - SP has told DU that she

does not want DU in her CR because he is a man, that is what gave rise to the allegations.
GM - DU raised a number of serious allegations
NC - but SP felt that she was harassed by DU in the CR, if she found his presence intimidating, she found his presence harassing - I'm not

asking you to agree that it's true.
GM - yes, if thats how she felt
NC - there's no way that SP could have raised that with DU that would not have been discriminatory
GM - there's a way she could have raised it that would not have involved a confrontation

NC - there was no way to SP could have made that point to DU in the CR that wouldn't have been discriminatory,
GM - I can't answer that, I don't know about Beth's feelings
NC - how could she have raised it?
GM - through her line manager
NC - was there anyway that SP could have

raised the issue with DU in the CR, that wasn't discriminatory
JR - this question has been asked and answered
NC - it has been asked but I think not answered
J - it has, 'it depends on how it was asked, etc'.
NC - let's go back and look at DU account , assume it is true

J - checking with GM, have you seen this before clarifying what is relevant
<all are reading now>
NC - assume everything is true, what's wrong with the manner in which C raised her concerns with DU
GM - it describes a difficult and escalating convo, compared to convicted rapist

NC - so if I ask you to pick out the worst thing, what is it
GM - she keeps telling Beth that she finds him intimidating and keeps repeating that
NC - so what was happening here was that SP was saying that sex matters in this situation, you may want to pretend you're a woman,

you are not a woman, and you are not a woman even if you call yourself one.
JR - that's not what the para says
NC - it's a fair precis,
GM - she says she feels intimidated, isn't it obvious that she doesn't want to get undressed in front of a man and she doesn't believe that DU

<NC question, not GM answer> she says she feels intimidated, isn't it obvious that she doesn't want to get undressed in front of a man and she doesn't believe that DU is a woman.
GM - that's not what it says here
NC - it's perfectly obvious that she was objecting to a man in

the woman's changing room.
GM - she was upset with DU being in the CR
NC - is there nothing in that statement that indicates that she was upset that a man was in the woman's changing room
GM - Beth "SP kept saying I was not a woman'
NC - doesn't that mean that he's a man

GM - some people have a gender id different from their sex, but there are biological men and women, so yes, I would agree
NC - and SP is saying that sex matters in this situation, this is the essence of her gender critical belief, that was the expression of her core gender

critical belief.
GM - it might have been an expression of her core gender critical belief, but it was not appropriate to be confrontational about it
NC - there is no suggestion that she raised her voice or was aggressive,
GM - no
NC - so it follows that the

suspension was because of her gender critical belief.
GM - the suspension was because of the risk assessment that was done
NC - so the entire suspension process was because of her GC belief
JR - a multi part question
NC - I thought we had agreed that SP was complaining about

DU's presence.
GM - I don't know that.
NC - the process started because of SP complaining about DU in the CR
GM - the process was started because of the Datix that was generated
NC - it was SPs rejection of the harassment by DU that gave rise to the disc process

GM - it was the manner in which she went about raising the issue, Beth felt intimidated and harassed.
NC - I'm about to go on to another area of questioning, and conscious of the time.
J - lets break for lunch, back at 2 pm.
Court rises.

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