Thread by @tribunaltweets

We expect to resume at 10 am this morning in Peggie vs NHS Fife & Dr Upton.

Link to out Substack here:tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fi…

We will be back when court begins.

Witnesses today are expected to be Elspeth Pitt, A&E consultant and Louise Curran, senior charge nurse A&E.
EP - Elspeth Pitt
LC - Louise Curran
CE - Charlotte Elves, junior barrister for C

Spectators being admitted to the in person hearing room and overflow room. Counsel and witness are all seated.

Judge and Panel arrive. Judge taking EP through formalities. Completed.
J - I take notes by hand, quite slowly.
JR - name
Elspeth Pitt
JR - how long at Fife,
EP - since Nov 2020.
JR - job title
EP - consultant, emergency medicine

JR what does your role involve
EP mostly seeing undifferentiated patients who arrive at the ED with all conditions, etc, and I supervise the clinical team doing that. I have a role in dept, running dept, supervising junior drs.
JR - undifferentiated?
EP - seeing anyone who

arrives
JR - when did you first meet DU
EP - when she first arrived at the dept
JR - what was your r'ship
EP - acting as clinical supervisor, overseeing work
JR - what is an early career dr
EP - that's because I'm an old career dr, many of our early career drs are in the 1st

5 years of career
JR - when did you meet SP & your r'ship
EP - meet her at the same time, and r'ship was professional
JR - document, yr interview with AG, Q2, you describe an induction, what does that involve
EP - when drs all change around, they get a hosp induction and

a dept induction. They get a intro to processes and policies both admin and medical.
JR - when did DU get that induction
EP - August 2023
JR - what shift were you working on Christmas Eve 2023
EP - I was the oncall consultant, clinical work until midnight, then handed over to

nightshift team and then was home but on call for emergencies.
JR - interview w AG, remind yourself of it, you describe being approached by DU at the end of your shift, did you witness the incident
EP - no I did not
JR - when did DU come to speak to you
EP - about midnight

that's as accurate as I can be, that's the time I was getting ready to leave
JR - where did convo take place
EP - in the back corridor, away from clinical part of dept, staff room, wellbeing room, store rooms, met DU there as I was leaving
JR - where is the back corridor in

relation to f cr
EP - two parts to back corridor, through another set of swipe doors, to the CR,
JR - how long to walk from CR to where you encountered DU
EP - 30 secs
JR - what sort of state was DU in
EP - looked very shaken and visibly upset

JR - how could you tell, what were the signifiers
EP - her demeanour was different from what it had been earlier in shift, looked quite pale, hyper aware,looked a little bit startled
JR - document, email copied to you on Xmas Day at 5:30,
EP - I have read it, don't remember

when I saw it
JR - why did DU communicate to you
EP - Dr U knew I was going to contact KS, because I had said I would email
JR - read page 271, <EP reading> can you give the Tribunal your best recollection of what DU told you had happened in the back corridor

EP - we had moved into the wellbeing room, I let DU speak, I felt my role was to listen, she said that there had been a very upsetting interaction, can't remember exact details of what was said to her, but that she was very fearful and had felt cornered,
J - can i catch up

EP - said was at end of shift, changing to leave, had convo with SP, it had become very unpleasant and painful for her, DU felt as if she had been cornered, expressed that the end of the shift was not a good time to have the convo, that it had escalated and couldn't get away.

Felt very upset by what had been said to her.
JR - can you recall report of what had been said to her by SP,
EP - can't give you specifics it was some time ago, the gist was that SP felt DU shouldn't be in CR, must have been some comment likening situation to convicted rapist

I can't remember the exact words, but I remember feeling very sad, it must have been so hurtful a thing to hear. I felt very sad when I heard that comment, that was when Dr U was so upset. I had to comfort DU. Was crying so much.
JR - what sort of crying, can you describe

EP - I suppose sobbing
JR - back to interview on 9 May, response to Q8, I'm going to ask about the understanding you had from Beth about the tone that SP used, Beth said she had experienced a verbal attack, what did you mean by that

EP - what I understood to be the tone, the tone was said in an aggressive and an unkind way.
JR - Did DU refer to anything about demeanour
EP - in the CR
JR - yes
EP - she said she felt cornered
JR - what do you thinks he meant by that
EP - I did not interpret it, it was what

DU said.
JR - what did you say
EP - I said I was sorry this upsetting thing had happened to her, she needed to go home to rest, it was end of shift, I may have signposted her to other support, and I said I would be in touch with her supervisor. I wasn't sure about next steps

if there was a process to report or complain but the best thing was to go home and rest and be with family. I also said should write a factual account at some point.
JR - DU's email to KS, ccd to you, DU's account of convo with you, can you check the second sentence, had a good

convo about my right to use the CR, and next steps.
EP - and I signposted to support
JR - what happened next
EP - I said we should leave the hospital together, so that DU could get to car and go home safely,
JR - why the right thing to do, to leave hosp together

EP - DU feeling quite threatened at that point, I thought it was the right thing to do to be by side in case something happened however unlikely, I was the consultant, it was my job to look after people
JR - how long did convo last
EP - about 30 minutes

JR - now going to look at emails following that day, email from you just after midnight Xmas day, had a catch up - KS and ED, where were you when you sent this
EP - probably in my car
JR - why KS and ED
EP - KS is DU's supervisor, and ED is charge nurse
JR - you said to DU if

ever happened again to let a senior person know why did you say that
EP - everyone wants to feel safe and respected at work, its a dept of 200+people, and line manager not always available, so a senior person would be a consultant
JR - seq of email - DU emails KS, you. KS emails

DU copying you in, what did you make of that.
EP - that's what I would expect KS to do
JR - she mentions you, says that EP might join us as well for convo, did that happen
EP - I don't recall being in that meeting with them, all the consultants share an office I was on a

clinical shift with them, but I don't recall that meeting although it was possible I was with them.
JR - email from ED, replying to your email, says that what was described was totally unacceptable.
EP - that was her opinion of what I reported, I didn't make any other

assessment
JR - KS email to Fife ED consultants, does this include you
EP - yes
JR - did you see this at the time
EP - yes
JR - refresh your memory on what it says, want to ask you 2 question, 1st, what is your opinion on KS action on sending email to consultants

EP - it's a tricky and sensitive thing, she would be sharing it so that we were aware that DU's shifts might be changed and DU might be a little bit upset at work, trying to make the assessment between how much you share and tell the group but as the seniors in this dept we had

be aware and DU might be a little bit more sensitive at work. It's difficult to figure out what to say, she wanted to give the facts and let us know the situations.
JR - why would the seniors need to know about Beth's shifts changing and why more sensitive at work

EP - if DU didn't arrive when expected we might normally contact the person and we do a difficult job, and we worry about pastoral care, and we might need to be more supportive, just looking out for them if they are struggling, seeing a patient

JR - you've mentioned DU's shifts being changed, how were they changed,
EP - from reading the emails, changed so that her shifts would never overlap with SP's shifts, seemed very sensible for everyone
JR - dr's shift are devised in accordance with a rota, how does jr dr

rota get done
EP - rota done by one of the consultants, shifts vary, a number of different types of shifts, appointed to shifts a number of months in advance sometimes
JR - what types of shifts
EP - at least 5 types, day shift, shift from 10 am to 8 pm, a 12 pm to 10 pm

2 pm to midnight and a night shift from 10 pm to 8:15 am.
JR - which of those would overlap with nurses night shift?
EP - all of them except the day shift
JR - can you be more specific on when jr dr rota gets done
EP - it has changed but at that time it was done in 3 month

or 6 months blocks
JR - can you describe who does the nursing rota
EP - no I can't
JR - when did DU return to the workplace
EP - I don't know exactly
JR - were you aware of any previous tensions between SP & DU
EP - no I was not aware

JR - statement to AG. Read Q11 and your answer to yourself, you say 'we were aware' who were you talking about
EP - the ED consultants
JR - how did you become aware
EP - the consultants meet on a monthly basis, one of the senior nurses said a concern had been raised about DU

using the CR. But we were informed that policy was that she was entitled to use that CR. We were not told any specifics, just that there was a concern.
JR - can you tell me when you were told
EP - sometime between the end of Aug and end of 2023.
JR - who was it

EP - senior nurses join that informal meeting, one of them mentioned it,
JR - how many concerns
EP - I don't know, just that there was a concern
JR - how did you know that DU was entitled to use that CR
EP - we were told that advice had been sought and that she was entitled to

use that CR.
JR - who was it who told you advice had been sought
EP - I don't remember
JR - are you able to be more specific about what you were told and the advice
EP - all I can recall is that we were told that DU could use that CR should she choose to

JR - how was the info shared among consultants and charge nurses
EP - it was shared in the meeting
JR - was ED there
EP - she may have been but maybe not
JR - all nurses there?
EP - no just charge nurses
JR - what info was shared
EP - that someone had raised a concern

that DU was using CR. No actions, that was all we were told.
JR - I have nothing further.
Court rises.
End of Morning Part 1

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