We continue Day 3, AM session two here at approx 11:25. The link to the first of todays sessions is below. 
We resume:
CE - Charlotte Elves - acting instead of Naomi Cunningham for SP
CE - some qu on your testimony. Where did you find DU, DU said had to go round whole dept and ask registrar was to find EP.
How long would that take?
EP - around whole area? describes doors and corridors
CE - Charlotte Elves - acting instead of Naomi Cunningham for SP
CE - some qu on your testimony. Where did you find DU, DU said had to go round whole dept and ask registrar was to find EP.
How long would that take?
EP - around whole area? describes doors and corridors
EP - depends how fast you walk, wouldn't take me long.
CE - so longer than 30 secs?
EP - I don't know how long it would take DU
CE - ref. email 29th Dec, paraphrasing your answer from earlier, you said KS would have had a legitimate info exercise to share in order to support DU
CE - so longer than 30 secs?
EP - I don't know how long it would take DU
CE - ref. email 29th Dec, paraphrasing your answer from earlier, you said KS would have had a legitimate info exercise to share in order to support DU
EP - yes
CE - KS says she had a long chat with DU to show support and condemn the actions of Sandie.
EP - my impression was condemning actions, we aren't lawyers trained to write. My reading was KS condemning what was said and how DU felt.
CE - is it necessary to take sides to
CE - KS says she had a long chat with DU to show support and condemn the actions of Sandie.
EP - my impression was condemning actions, we aren't lawyers trained to write. My reading was KS condemning what was said and how DU felt.
CE - is it necessary to take sides to
CE - be a good colleague?
EP - KS was DU supervisor and was trying to be supportive.
CE - am I being fair that reads as taking sides?
EP - to me it read as supporting DU, how others read it...
CE - she is writing as we, not herself.
EP - we supported DU right to use F CR, fades
EP - KS was DU supervisor and was trying to be supportive.
CE - am I being fair that reads as taking sides?
EP - to me it read as supporting DU, how others read it...
CE - she is writing as we, not herself.
EP - we supported DU right to use F CR, fades
JR - please let her answer
EP - we are the seniors and need to support DU to feel safe and respoected. Accept that sentence isn't specific.
CE - it goes far beyond what's needed to support?
EP - Read it as, don't know if helpful but, anyone would condemn a behaviour that
EP - we are the seniors and need to support DU to feel safe and respoected. Accept that sentence isn't specific.
CE - it goes far beyond what's needed to support?
EP - Read it as, don't know if helpful but, anyone would condemn a behaviour that
EP - causes, not condemning the problem.
CE - draw distinction between behaviour and person. Is it sensible to advertise condemnation on evidence of one person?
EP - KS wrote to closed group
CE - how many consultants on group?
EP - 20 about
CE - so email to 20 most senior staff?
CE - draw distinction between behaviour and person. Is it sensible to advertise condemnation on evidence of one person?
EP - KS wrote to closed group
CE - how many consultants on group?
EP - 20 about
CE - so email to 20 most senior staff?
EP - yes
CE - note to AG, last para read please. FInishes, concluding no cross over at all. So no cross over?
EP - yes
CE - in context then, no reason to consider changing shifts?
EP - don't know when that was decided
CE - that conv happening 29th Dec.
EP - intention to make sure
CE - note to AG, last para read please. FInishes, concluding no cross over at all. So no cross over?
EP - yes
CE - in context then, no reason to consider changing shifts?
EP - don't know when that was decided
CE - that conv happening 29th Dec.
EP - intention to make sure
CE - info sharing exercise in Aug/Sept 23, senior nurse consultant meeting. Clear to senior nurses and consultants that a man who ID as a woman will be able to use F CR
EP - ref to DU?
CE - it's the advice given at that meeting?
EP - this specific sitn, DU entitled to use F CR
EP - ref to DU?
CE - it's the advice given at that meeting?
EP - this specific sitn, DU entitled to use F CR
CE - do you get changed F CR?
EP - no
CE - do consultants get changed there?
EP - no
EP - there's a toilet by our offices we use.
CE - senior nurses change there?
EP - not aware.
CE - fair to say no direct communication to nurses who will be effective?
EP - don't get nurse comms
EP - no
CE - do consultants get changed there?
EP - no
EP - there's a toilet by our offices we use.
CE - senior nurses change there?
EP - not aware.
CE - fair to say no direct communication to nurses who will be effective?
EP - don't get nurse comms
CE - nobody said the nurses had been spoken to?
EP - don't recall.
CE - on to Xmas Eve incident. It's agreed you would walk DU to car over safety?
EP - yes
CE - you've been told SP attacked DU so badly you think that's prudent. Agree that is exceedingly serious?
EP - don't recall.
CE - on to Xmas Eve incident. It's agreed you would walk DU to car over safety?
EP - yes
CE - you've been told SP attacked DU so badly you think that's prudent. Agree that is exceedingly serious?
EP - it's the kind thing
CE - your concern was safety?
EP - yes, so if they met no need for interaction, right thing to do. Aware DU upset, thought it right thing.
CE - decision on safety concerns knowing SP still in hospital, you need to chaperone. DU sought you out. It's Xmas
CE - your concern was safety?
EP - yes, so if they met no need for interaction, right thing to do. Aware DU upset, thought it right thing.
CE - decision on safety concerns knowing SP still in hospital, you need to chaperone. DU sought you out. It's Xmas
CE - sought you as escalation required?
EP - don't know, wanted to talk to someone, supportive culture, have posters saying senior staff support you. If there had been upsetting interaction with patient, would expect to come.
CE - senior and would be expected to do something?
EP - don't know, wanted to talk to someone, supportive culture, have posters saying senior staff support you. If there had been upsetting interaction with patient, would expect to come.
CE - senior and would be expected to do something?
EP - yes
CE - could have escalated to Band 7?
EP - yes
CE - you may not know by LC escalated immediately, but you didn't
EP - yes, it was late at night, I'm tired, genuinely didn't know right thing to do. But as DU had finished, should go home.
CE - could have escalated to Band 7?
EP - yes
CE - you may not know by LC escalated immediately, but you didn't
EP - yes, it was late at night, I'm tired, genuinely didn't know right thing to do. But as DU had finished, should go home.
CE - could have checked rota? You didn't?
EP - nurse and Dr rotas are separate docs, don't have sight. COuld have, it was late, we were tired thought it right to go home. COuld have gone to senior nurse to check but didn't
CE - fair to say you are senior
EP - yes
CE - judge risk
EP - nurse and Dr rotas are separate docs, don't have sight. COuld have, it was late, we were tired thought it right to go home. COuld have gone to senior nurse to check but didn't
CE - fair to say you are senior
EP - yes
CE - judge risk
CE - etc regularly
EP - yes
CE - challenging relationship incidents too, patients etc?
EP - clinically yes
CE - here you did decide next steps, your statement to AG says you agree 3 things, rest, on return to work contact line manager, leave together.
EP - yes
EP - yes
CE - challenging relationship incidents too, patients etc?
EP - clinically yes
CE - here you did decide next steps, your statement to AG says you agree 3 things, rest, on return to work contact line manager, leave together.
EP - yes
CE - IX meeting note, you said genuinely didn't know what to do next, but take it up when return. Essentially not very urgent.
EP - DU and I both back within next couple of days. I was new to org, didn't know all policies, HR etc. It was late, felt appropriate to do on return.
EP - DU and I both back within next couple of days. I was new to org, didn't know all policies, HR etc. It was late, felt appropriate to do on return.
EP - middle of night didn't seem time to do... the right moment.
CE - knew when you were back, DU?
EP - I think we spoke about it.
CE - didn't know when SP around?
EP - no.
CE - DU understood you saw no critical urgency to escalation?
EP - recollection is rest, contact BMA
CE - knew when you were back, DU?
EP - I think we spoke about it.
CE - didn't know when SP around?
EP - no.
CE - DU understood you saw no critical urgency to escalation?
EP - recollection is rest, contact BMA
EP - as I said, then in cold light of day assess.
CE - Email you sent to ED and KS from your car after conv with DU. Pedestrian subject line - catch up
EP - yes
CE - ask for catch up in the next week
EP - yes
CE - not implying urgency?
EP - yes didn't know when people around
CE - Email you sent to ED and KS from your car after conv with DU. Pedestrian subject line - catch up
EP - yes
CE - ask for catch up in the next week
EP - yes
CE - not implying urgency?
EP - yes didn't know when people around
CE - don't need to know people around to say something is very urgent?
EP -
CE - accept given timing, might not be seen quickly.
EP - wanted to get it done, do my work and go home, didn't expect it read on Xmas day.
CE - but content to give a week?
EP -
CE - accept given timing, might not be seen quickly.
EP - wanted to get it done, do my work and go home, didn't expect it read on Xmas day.
CE - but content to give a week?
CE - See email DU sends KS, less than 3 hours after your conv and agreed next steps
EP - yes
CE - despite agreed approach, DU takes a diff approach to next steps and urgency.
EP - DU states back on 28th Dec, I don't know thier expectation of timing.
CE - short point, not happy...
EP - yes
CE - despite agreed approach, DU takes a diff approach to next steps and urgency.
EP - DU states back on 28th Dec, I don't know thier expectation of timing.
CE - short point, not happy...
CE - to park till return
EP - yes, I knew I'd be back, didn't expect anything to happen 25th, thought back in a couple of days. Can I say their expectations were diff to my expectation.
CE - DU is a bio male in his 20's. correct?
EP - we were told DU was Dr Beth Upton, TBH
EP - yes, I knew I'd be back, didn't expect anything to happen 25th, thought back in a couple of days. Can I say their expectations were diff to my expectation.
CE - DU is a bio male in his 20's. correct?
EP - we were told DU was Dr Beth Upton, TBH
EP - its not something we talk about.
CE - fair DU is over 6 ft?
EP - I don't know everyone is taller than me
CE - SP is small
EP - yes
CE - you knew suggestion of DU being unsafe was implausible
EP - No, not at all, when I met DU clear v upset, frightened, verbal not physical
CE - fair DU is over 6 ft?
EP - I don't know everyone is taller than me
CE - SP is small
EP - yes
CE - you knew suggestion of DU being unsafe was implausible
EP - No, not at all, when I met DU clear v upset, frightened, verbal not physical
CE - not just appearances, but risk needs to be assessed. Serious and urgent to DU, but not assessed like that by you.
EP - serious and needed due consideration, didn't want to do something ill-considered or incorrect. It was serious. Not to be handled on shift.
EP - serious and needed due consideration, didn't want to do something ill-considered or incorrect. It was serious. Not to be handled on shift.
CE - serious enough to walk DU to car, but not to ensure no encounter in following week?
EP - I thought DU not back till 28/29th, I would be back, SP on nights, didn't know specifics.
CE - Your view, didn't need total separation, just others around?
EP - wasn't thinking we need
EP - I thought DU not back till 28/29th, I would be back, SP on nights, didn't know specifics.
CE - Your view, didn't need total separation, just others around?
EP - wasn't thinking we need
EP - this this and this, just thought prudent that they weren't on together and could figure out how to go forward
CE - confident of it, without knowing SP's shifts.
EP - seemed likely not to encoutner
CE - MISSED
CE - your email is for DU and KS, broad.
EP - my job is clinical
CE - confident of it, without knowing SP's shifts.
EP - seemed likely not to encoutner
CE - MISSED
CE - your email is for DU and KS, broad.
EP - my job is clinical
EP - if I was on shift would have seen KS, if DU came in would have seen too. EMails can become a conversation, it's not how I would always use email
CE - back to "catch up" email, thread plays out over several days. You don't engage in that thread further
EP - don't use as conv
CE - back to "catch up" email, thread plays out over several days. You don't engage in that thread further
EP - don't use as conv
EP - prefer to speak to people.
CE - KS email to all ED consultants, seen other replies, you don't reply do you?
EP - entirely possible, don't use email for conversations, always assume my mails will be read, said need to get in touch with KS and ?? might not have been on duty
CE - KS email to all ED consultants, seen other replies, you don't reply do you?
EP - entirely possible, don't use email for conversations, always assume my mails will be read, said need to get in touch with KS and ?? might not have been on duty
EP - don't sit around reading eamils all day
CE - you say you write emails as if they are going to be read?
EP - yes
CE - a prudent approach, suggest you knew replies to that email weren't appropriate and didn't reply.
EP - can't say, don't use as a conversation.
CE - no more qu
CE - you say you write emails as if they are going to be read?
EP - yes
CE - a prudent approach, suggest you knew replies to that email weren't appropriate and didn't reply.
EP - can't say, don't use as a conversation.
CE - no more qu
*Will use P for both panelists if qu arise.*
P - you were asked where you got changed as a consultant. Are there any lockers for consultants?
EP - no
P - where do you keep things?
EP - in the consultant office, swipe access to it, belongings in there
J - no qu, any JR
P - you were asked where you got changed as a consultant. Are there any lockers for consultants?
EP - no
P - where do you keep things?
EP - in the consultant office, swipe access to it, belongings in there
J - no qu, any JR
JR - 3. Discussed time to walk round corridors, what would be max time?
EP - 28 clinical rooms, 3 major clin areas, I can get round quickly.
JR - how long?
EP - about 5 mins, depends how many rooms you go into, who you are speaking to.
JR - asked about what you didn't do re
EP - 28 clinical rooms, 3 major clin areas, I can get round quickly.
JR - how long?
EP - about 5 mins, depends how many rooms you go into, who you are speaking to.
JR - asked about what you didn't do re
JR - escalation and were asked about experience. Ever come across something like this?
EP - no
JR - similar?
EP - between 2 staff members, never.
JR - you were asked, DU had a diff view of urgency, suggested DU had a more serious/critical level of urgency. Look at para
EP - no
JR - similar?
EP - between 2 staff members, never.
JR - you were asked, DU had a diff view of urgency, suggested DU had a more serious/critical level of urgency. Look at para
JR - DU says not sure of next steps, what level of urgency did DU have?
EP - possibly discussed changing elsewhere, would still have to use lockers in there, it's poss we discussed that till we knew what to do.
J - that concludes your evidence, thanks.
EP - possibly discussed changing elsewhere, would still have to use lockers in there, it's poss we discussed that till we knew what to do.
J - that concludes your evidence, thanks.
JR - next is senior charge nurse Louise Curran.
J - how long will evidence in chief be?
JR - about an hour
J - so we shall break for lunch.
Resume 13:15.
J - how long will evidence in chief be?
JR - about an hour
J - so we shall break for lunch.
Resume 13:15.
@threadreaderapp please unroll
• • •
Missing some Tweet in this thread? You can try to
force a refresh
