We resume
aths taken
J when you give you evidence, I write it all down, so please go slowly
JR - what is your role
LCn senior charge nurse
aths taken
J when you give you evidence, I write it all down, so please go slowly
JR - what is your role
LCn senior charge nurse
JR What does it involve
Day to day running, patient care, nursing and managerial duties
Can you descrive relationship with SP
Line manager so prof relationship
How long?
Since 2020 when promoted
JR Describe relationship
LC Prof working relationship
Day to day running, patient care, nursing and managerial duties
Can you descrive relationship with SP
Line manager so prof relationship
How long?
Since 2020 when promoted
JR Describe relationship
LC Prof working relationship
JR- were you aware of her GC views
LC - nothing direct
LC - nothing direct
LC - views of religion, politcis but I've not witnessed directly so can't elaborate
JR -are you familiar with GC views
LC- they do not recognise um that they do not belive there is more than m or female and you can't change your gender that is my understanding
JR -are you familiar with GC views
LC- they do not recognise um that they do not belive there is more than m or female and you can't change your gender that is my understanding
JR When were you first aware
LC Not aware until this tribunal
JR -( refers to bundle of papers) 1186
this is an email to JD to you end August 23 do you recall it.
LC - I don't recall it.
JR would you describe your awareness of DU coming to your dept. We all knew beth starting
LC Not aware until this tribunal
JR -( refers to bundle of papers) 1186
this is an email to JD to you end August 23 do you recall it.
LC - I don't recall it.
JR would you describe your awareness of DU coming to your dept. We all knew beth starting
she had working in Psy Depty
JR - in the email do you recall when you were first aware of mention
LC - Sandie approached ED not long after to say she wasn't happy. ED has sought advice from IB
JR - in the email do you recall when you were first aware of mention
LC - Sandie approached ED not long after to say she wasn't happy. ED has sought advice from IB
When were you first aware of this email?
Sometime in August
Can you recall what advice was?
that she had the right to change in the female changing room
Sometime in August
Can you recall what advice was?
that she had the right to change in the female changing room
JR - refers to bundle - issues prior to incident
can you read to yourself and I will ask you of your awareness of this. Can everyone read this to themselves.
JR - what strong beliefs
Lc - that Sandie was not happy with Beth in changing room
JR - conv Peggie in Oct where?
can you read to yourself and I will ask you of your awareness of this. Can everyone read this to themselves.
JR - what strong beliefs
Lc - that Sandie was not happy with Beth in changing room
JR - conv Peggie in Oct where?
LC - in the handover area
JR - what did she say
LC - she would like to hightlight what she had discussed with ED. Not happy with Beth changing with her
I said that was aware of concerns also aware that ED had spoken to EDI and using that advice. Use other changing rm if wanted
JR - what did she say
LC - she would like to hightlight what she had discussed with ED. Not happy with Beth changing with her
I said that was aware of concerns also aware that ED had spoken to EDI and using that advice. Use other changing rm if wanted
LC - said she would check with ED to see ifany change in policy
JR - Mentioned alt
LC - main in older building in the basement and the well being room, has a locked door can be used by any member of staff, and the pubic rooms where i have witnessed her changing in the past
JR - Mentioned alt
LC - main in older building in the basement and the well being room, has a locked door can be used by any member of staff, and the pubic rooms where i have witnessed her changing in the past
JR you said you were going to check with ED
LC-= Yes I did, was there any further guidance? She said no it still stands.
JR - Would you describe if you relayed this back to SP
LC - yes
JR - when?
LC - no, I didn't Sandie only works night shifts, I didn't see her, I don't recall
LC-= Yes I did, was there any further guidance? She said no it still stands.
JR - Would you describe if you relayed this back to SP
LC - yes
JR - when?
LC - no, I didn't Sandie only works night shifts, I didn't see her, I don't recall
JR - any awareness of SP DU interactions
LC - no direct communication, was aware Sandie not happy , not brought to me as manager
JR how?
LC - just other conversations - that she will walk out of cubicles, not happy
LC - no direct communication, was aware Sandie not happy , not brought to me as manager
JR how?
LC - just other conversations - that she will walk out of cubicles, not happy
JR -( sound dropped )
refers top P463 to top of 464 Q2
JR - take a moment to read. Where did this take place this conv?
LC - in the consultant corridor outside my office
JR - the acc gives no names, who was involved?
LC - it was obvious who it was
refers top P463 to top of 464 Q2
JR - take a moment to read. Where did this take place this conv?
LC - in the consultant corridor outside my office
JR - the acc gives no names, who was involved?
LC - it was obvious who it was
JR -= she describes there was a diff what did Dr Searle say
LCThat a conv had taken place in CR not very nice, confrontational, left Beth upset, scared and vulnerable. I said can I ask which nurse and nature of conv.
That Sandie said she shouldn't change in there because...
LCThat a conv had taken place in CR not very nice, confrontational, left Beth upset, scared and vulnerable. I said can I ask which nurse and nature of conv.
That Sandie said she shouldn't change in there because...
..female. That LC not sure what to do, get advice from HR. Knew nothing to do immediately as Sanie not on shift tif following eve Sat 30 Dec
JR Who did you contact from HR?
LC Didn't as none there. Contacted Jamie
JR Why did Dr S contact you?
Because I'm the manager
JR Who did you contact from HR?
LC Didn't as none there. Contacted Jamie
JR Why did Dr S contact you?
Because I'm the manager
LC - I made a note of the conv
JR after Searle when did you speak to Jamie.
LC The following day, around 12 oclock
JR 15 December - conversation with Jamie Doyle - please read. where did it take place
LC - in his office, clinicial nurse mgrs office. Around 12 -1 oclock.
JR after Searle when did you speak to Jamie.
LC The following day, around 12 oclock
JR 15 December - conversation with Jamie Doyle - please read. where did it take place
LC - in his office, clinicial nurse mgrs office. Around 12 -1 oclock.
JR = would you explain why you spoke to him
LC - most sen. mgr on site that day. He is more educated experience in this
LC I said I had been approached by Dr Searle that a serious complaint was made, told the extent of the complaint.
Relating to situation and Sandie had advised
LC - most sen. mgr on site that day. He is more educated experience in this
LC I said I had been approached by Dr Searle that a serious complaint was made, told the extent of the complaint.
Relating to situation and Sandie had advised
..Beth had no right to be there as not female. The doctor was considering reporting to the police as a hate incident.
What was his response
He said we should go and look at the ED policy which led us to the bullying policy and the NMC code of conduct and we would need to seek
What was his response
He said we should go and look at the ED policy which led us to the bullying policy and the NMC code of conduct and we would need to seek
..HR advice on this
JR - P 537 - and at 538 - the definitions of bullying and harrassment. What were your thoughts?
LC - protected chara of gender reass and sexual orientation.
JR - Looking at p549 - examples of bullying behaviour
JR - P 537 - and at 538 - the definitions of bullying and harrassment. What were your thoughts?
LC - protected chara of gender reass and sexual orientation.
JR - Looking at p549 - examples of bullying behaviour
LC - unacceptable tone, mainly the threatening behaviour
Jr - examples of harassing behaviours = types
LC - yes gender reassignment, gender identity, failure to use requested pronouns
Why is this relevant
LC - because trans people come under protected charas
Jr - examples of harassing behaviours = types
LC - yes gender reassignment, gender identity, failure to use requested pronouns
Why is this relevant
LC - because trans people come under protected charas
JR - refers to bundle - describes prioritising people and upholding dignity
JR - why this>?
LC - because we thought it was relevant because not respecting human rights
JR - P598 upholding reputation of profession
LC - act with honesty and integrity at all time
JR - why this>?
LC - because we thought it was relevant because not respecting human rights
JR - P598 upholding reputation of profession
LC - act with honesty and integrity at all time
LC - shouldn't express personal and moral beliefs.
JR - you said you looked at anything else
LC - no
JR - after we looked at this, enough info that it was a serious enough accusation. Advised by JD to put Sandie on special leave and I was to phone and tell her
JR - you said you looked at anything else
LC - no
JR - after we looked at this, enough info that it was a serious enough accusation. Advised by JD to put Sandie on special leave and I was to phone and tell her
JR - How long was the leave to last for.
LC - one shift until speak to HR and go forward with plan after that
JR - describe if you are aware if JD aware of GC beliefs
LC - not aware
LC - one shift until speak to HR and go forward with plan after that
JR - describe if you are aware if JD aware of GC beliefs
LC - not aware
JR - p731 back to your notes when had conv with JD and Dr Searle. You ref that the allegation is that the member of staff was delib abusive and a hate crime. Why did you write that? Why did you charac this way?
LC - that is what Dr Searle had said about it,
JR - (refers to doc)
LC - that is what Dr Searle had said about it,
JR - (refers to doc)
JR - deals with subject matter - the words 'hate crimes' and bullet points. Would you describe your understanding of what they say in relation of what you were told.
LC - harassment
JR - P722 Email Dr Searle to you and ED
LC - that was sent after conv with Jamie
LC - harassment
JR - P722 Email Dr Searle to you and ED
LC - that was sent after conv with Jamie
JR - refers to your informing lauren
LC - I said to kate I would speak to Lauren next time I saw her. (missed)
JR - conv with Miss Peggie - two accounts. in notes
When did this happen,
LC- with SP Sat 30 Dec around 4pm
LC - I said to kate I would speak to Lauren next time I saw her. (missed)
JR - conv with Miss Peggie - two accounts. in notes
When did this happen,
LC- with SP Sat 30 Dec around 4pm
I was in Jamie's office
JR - where was Sandie?
LC don't know
advised her we have had a serious allegation and putting on special leave, that we would get clarity from HR. Not sure quite the words.
What was her response
JR - where was Sandie?
LC don't know
advised her we have had a serious allegation and putting on special leave, that we would get clarity from HR. Not sure quite the words.
What was her response
LC - she said if you don't want me to come in tonight that is fine with me.
JR - you were on the phone?
LC - she sounded very matter of fact
JR - what was your interp
LC - yes she had have a confront, but she didn't see it as serious and didn't mind not coming in to work
JR - you were on the phone?
LC - she sounded very matter of fact
JR - what was your interp
LC - yes she had have a confront, but she didn't see it as serious and didn't mind not coming in to work
LC - I advise I had days off, it would be ED, and also HR (sound poor)
JR what happened then
LC - I was duty charge nurse that night, so went on wards
(can't hear)
JR Were you alone when had conv with SP
LC With Jamie. On speakerphone
He was surpised with the matter of factness
JR what happened then
LC - I was duty charge nurse that night, so went on wards
(can't hear)
JR Were you alone when had conv with SP
LC With Jamie. On speakerphone
He was surpised with the matter of factness
That she didn't see that bothered.
JR Why special leave?
LC - it's to protect confidentiality, also doesn't effect pay or sick leave
JR - p 1253 email from MC to various people 5th January - SP been referred to NMC, were you aware?
LC - no not aware, thought investigation 1st
JR Why special leave?
LC - it's to protect confidentiality, also doesn't effect pay or sick leave
JR - p 1253 email from MC to various people 5th January - SP been referred to NMC, were you aware?
LC - no not aware, thought investigation 1st
JR - March page 1356 this email, you to LM 28 March about shifts on graduated return, why was this being sent to Lottie
LC - that Sandie should be fully supported and allocated shifts for senior support.
JR - p330 emails other bundle. 2nd and 3rd April. LM email to you and ED
LC - that Sandie should be fully supported and allocated shifts for senior support.
JR - p330 emails other bundle. 2nd and 3rd April. LM email to you and ED
(mentions other emails senior support ED)
ED email 3rd April Lottie this is a compromise
Email from GM always a Band 7 but reasonable to have band 6
Mentions other emails
Why was it felt that SP needed senior support
Lc - important because of allegations. If she needed to talk
ED email 3rd April Lottie this is a compromise
Email from GM always a Band 7 but reasonable to have band 6
Mentions other emails
Why was it felt that SP needed senior support
Lc - important because of allegations. If she needed to talk
JR - What things had you got in mind re support
LC - working along side her, staff wellbeing, peer support, whatever she felt she needed
JR - can you explain these?
LC - staff wellbeing - checking in with staff, support and wellbeing groups and rooms, peer support not familiar
LC - working along side her, staff wellbeing, peer support, whatever she felt she needed
JR - can you explain these?
LC - staff wellbeing - checking in with staff, support and wellbeing groups and rooms, peer support not familiar
..but would have referred to Elspeth if she wanted that support.
JR - no more questions
J - a break now ten minutes
JR - no more questions
J - a break now ten minutes
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