Good morning.
This is the fifth day of the July session of hearings in Peggie vs NHS Fife & Dr B Upton.
Due to start at 10am.
Today we expect the first witness to be Kate Searle, A&E consultant
This is the fifth day of the July session of hearings in Peggie vs NHS Fife & Dr B Upton.
Due to start at 10am.
Today we expect the first witness to be Kate Searle, A&E consultant
Our Substack on the case can be found on this link.
…
You will find all of our live threads from this and the first part of this case, along with press coverage and other cases we have covered.
A reminder on the limitations of our reporting: open.substack.com/pub/tribunaltw
…
You will find all of our live threads from this and the first part of this case, along with press coverage and other cases we have covered.
A reminder on the limitations of our reporting: open.substack.com/pub/tribunaltw
Admonition from Employment Judge Kemp to any potential witnesses to avoid Tribunal Tweets coverage.
Claimant, respondents, counsel, members of the court
C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor R/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
Rs – 1st and 2nd respondents
C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor R/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
Rs – 1st and 2nd respondents
JR - Jane Russell, KC, barrister for respondents
AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for respondents J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
ET - Employment Tribunal
P1, P2 - additional panel members; CM Russell, L Brown
AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for respondents J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
ET - Employment Tribunal
P1, P2 - additional panel members; CM Russell, L Brown
MF - Maya Forstater, CEO of Sex Matters
DP - Darren Peggie, Claimant's husband
NP - Nicole Peggie, Claimant's daughter
SB - Sheila Bell, Claimant's mother
ED - Esther Davidson, SP’s line manager
IB – Isla Bumba, NHS Fife Equality and Diversity Lead Officer
DP - Darren Peggie, Claimant's husband
NP - Nicole Peggie, Claimant's daughter
SB - Sheila Bell, Claimant's mother
ED - Esther Davidson, SP’s line manager
IB – Isla Bumba, NHS Fife Equality and Diversity Lead Officer
KS - Kate Searle, A&E consultant
SF - Stuart Fraser, SP’s RCN Rep
AG - Angela Glancy, headed up in SP investigation
VV – Vic Valentine, Equality Network
SF - Stuart Fraser, SP’s RCN Rep
AG - Angela Glancy, headed up in SP investigation
VV – Vic Valentine, Equality Network
Abbreviations for frequently used terms (not exhaustive):
AE - Accident & emergency department
B&H - bullying and harassment
CR - changing room
CX – complaint
DX - disciplinary procedure or process
FtP - fitness to practice
AE - Accident & emergency department
B&H - bullying and harassment
CR - changing room
CX – complaint
DX - disciplinary procedure or process
FtP - fitness to practice
GC /SR: gender critical or sex realists. Belief that biological sex is important, immutable and different from gender identity
GI – Gender identity is a person's internal sense of their own gender, which may or may not align with their birth sex.
GI – Gender identity is a person's internal sense of their own gender, which may or may not align with their birth sex.
HI - hate incident
HR - Human Rights IX - investigation
SX - suspension
EA - Equality Act 2010
PC - protected characteristic; 9 under EA
RA = risk assessment
GM - Gillian Malone, Director of Nursing NHS Fife
NEW TODAY
JB - Jim Borwick, KJB computer forensics consultancy
HR - Human Rights IX - investigation
SX - suspension
EA - Equality Act 2010
PC - protected characteristic; 9 under EA
RA = risk assessment
GM - Gillian Malone, Director of Nursing NHS Fife
NEW TODAY
JB - Jim Borwick, KJB computer forensics consultancy
LINK TO SUBSTACK is here : tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fi…
Apologies, earlier substack link was broken.
It, along with all of our coverage, can be found here:
tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fi…
It, along with all of our coverage, can be found here:
tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fi…
Slight delay this am.
Still no live link - will update when we know more.
Still nothing to report.
Very long delay - still nothing to report as yet.
Link is live.
We will begin shortly.
We will begin shortly.
J- morning KS, chose oath.
KS sworn in.
J - I'm writing, please go slowly , JR
JR - full name pls
KS - Kate ELizabeth Searle
JR how long
KS - 11 years
JR - title
KS - consultant in emergency
JR - invoves?
KS - supervision and oversight.
JR - first met DU
KS - aug 2023
KS sworn in.
J - I'm writing, please go slowly , JR
JR - full name pls
KS - Kate ELizabeth Searle
JR how long
KS - 11 years
JR - title
KS - consultant in emergency
JR - invoves?
KS - supervision and oversight.
JR - first met DU
KS - aug 2023
JR - role with DU?
KS - ??+clinical supervision
JR - what does that involve
KS - getting to know their experience and main point of contact and support in career while in dept. Also wellbeing support if require
JR - describe relationship with SP
KS - I'm a consultant in dept,
KS - ??+clinical supervision
JR - what does that involve
KS - getting to know their experience and main point of contact and support in career while in dept. Also wellbeing support if require
JR - describe relationship with SP
KS - I'm a consultant in dept,
KS - large ept have know since started
JR - id you know of her GC views?
KS - no
JR - do you knoww hat it means?
KS - yes I think so
JR - aware of any of SP's views?
KS - no
JR - describe dr induction
KS - practical induction, fire safety etc day 1 then given geog of dept, areas
JR - id you know of her GC views?
KS - no
JR - do you knoww hat it means?
KS - yes I think so
JR - aware of any of SP's views?
KS - no
JR - describe dr induction
KS - practical induction, fire safety etc day 1 then given geog of dept, areas
KS - go through areas and topics, there are projects we do, things they can get involved in, who to support and who supervisors are.
JR - when id you become DU supervisor
KS - aug 2023
JR - when was induction?
KS - weds and thurs of first week
JR - when aware of DU trans status?
JR - when id you become DU supervisor
KS - aug 2023
JR - when was induction?
KS - weds and thurs of first week
JR - when aware of DU trans status?
KS - when I met her, in interview for job was very open about it
JR - did she tell you?
KS - yes
JR - how long did you beloeve out as TW?
KS believe a year
JR - first meeting with DU?
KS - aug 23
JR - purpose of meeting?
KS - intro to me, what she wanted to get out of role, ans
JR - did she tell you?
KS - yes
JR - how long did you beloeve out as TW?
KS believe a year
JR - first meeting with DU?
KS - aug 23
JR - purpose of meeting?
KS - intro to me, what she wanted to get out of role, ans
questions, direct to support available
JR - *turns to bundle* - What is this a pic of?
KS - F CR in emergency dept
JR - what discussion with DU about F CR use?
KS - checked knew where was, happy to use it, had used in previous jobs, extent of conv.
JR - who suggested DU use F CR?
JR - *turns to bundle* - What is this a pic of?
KS - F CR in emergency dept
JR - what discussion with DU about F CR use?
KS - checked knew where was, happy to use it, had used in previous jobs, extent of conv.
JR - who suggested DU use F CR?
KS - Beth use in previous job, happy and comfortable, so I made no other suggestion
JR - recall what you said?
KS - not an in depth conv, asked if happy using, she said yes. I had nothing to add.
JR - what prep for meeting?
KS - l looked at info summary of previous jobs
JR - recall what you said?
KS - not an in depth conv, asked if happy using, she said yes. I had nothing to add.
JR - what prep for meeting?
KS - l looked at info summary of previous jobs
KS - foundation jobs, also looked up EHRC statutory act, as DU ID as F she has every right to use F CR
JR - anything else?
KS - looked for Fife policy, wasn't one.
JR - in bundle, later in Dec, your email to IB, you say first transgender dr, v little info available, asking for
JR - anything else?
KS - looked for Fife policy, wasn't one.
JR - in bundle, later in Dec, your email to IB, you say first transgender dr, v little info available, asking for
info, what were you looking for?
KS - hoping trust policy supporting TG staff in workplace.
JR - her reply, describe reponse.
KS - no trust policy for staff, or patients either I think, hope to have one.
JR - why send that email 8th Dec?
KS - don't recall
JR - Xmas 2023...
KS - hoping trust policy supporting TG staff in workplace.
JR - her reply, describe reponse.
KS - no trust policy for staff, or patients either I think, hope to have one.
JR - why send that email 8th Dec?
KS - don't recall
JR - Xmas 2023...
JR - same bundle. Email from EP to you and ED, informs you DU had a v upsetting interaction with staff, is v distressed. She reassured Beth was appropriate to let senior colleague know in future. YOu r reaction?
KS - concerned for Beth.
JR - what did you do?
KS - not read in
KS - concerned for Beth.
JR - what did you do?
KS - not read in
isolation, Xmas day, others also came through.#
JR - your dates of hols then?
KS - can't recall exactly, around 29th back. (missed)
JR - email dated 3:17 am Xmas day, difficult incident mentioned spoken to Elspeth, also a summary.
JR - it says SP said DU shouldn't be in changing
JR - your dates of hols then?
KS - can't recall exactly, around 29th back. (missed)
JR - email dated 3:17 am Xmas day, difficult incident mentioned spoken to Elspeth, also a summary.
JR - it says SP said DU shouldn't be in changing
and lots felt that way. reaction
KS - concerned, and no policies
JR - ???
KS - again concerned
JR - qu of chromasomes
KS - imagine invasive question, not relevant for colleague to ask
JR - why upsetting for Beth
KS - beth ID as F and Chrom don't matter to her
KS - concerned, and no policies
JR - ???
KS - again concerned
JR - qu of chromasomes
KS - imagine invasive question, not relevant for colleague to ask
JR - why upsetting for Beth
KS - beth ID as F and Chrom don't matter to her
JR - continues saying intimidated, and mentions isla bryson
KS - inappropriate
JR - who is Isla bryson
KS - rapist in prison
JR - lots of other feel this way - aware any concerns?
KS - no
JR - when did you respond to email?
KS - 29th Dec
JR - 11:17 why did you send this to Beth?
KS - inappropriate
JR - who is Isla bryson
KS - rapist in prison
JR - lots of other feel this way - aware any concerns?
KS - no
JR - when did you respond to email?
KS - 29th Dec
JR - 11:17 why did you send this to Beth?
KS - imp to acknowledge extremely distresssing event, to make contact and arrange to discuss furhter.
JR - I'll let other consultants know, why
KS - so DU could leave if needed
JR - did she?
KS - don't believe so
JR - when did you see DU?
KS - met around 5pm that day
JR - I'll let other consultants know, why
KS - so DU could leave if needed
JR - did she?
KS - don't believe so
JR - when did you see DU?
KS - met around 5pm that day
JR - where
KS - consultant office
JR - just you?
KS - just me and Beth
JR - what happened?
KS - Beth went through all events, very distressed
J - need to catch up
KS - looked at hate incident policy, going through it realised incident required datix, completed together
KS - consultant office
JR - just you?
KS - just me and Beth
JR - what happened?
KS - Beth went through all events, very distressed
J - need to catch up
KS - looked at hate incident policy, going through it realised incident required datix, completed together
KS - discussed police report as that's in policy. Beth said would think. Looked at shift patterns and if she felt safe. Ensured had all support needed
JR - which events?
KS - Xmas eve. She mentioned 2 others with Sandie, miss Peggie, where DU felt interactions were about trans
JR - which events?
KS - Xmas eve. She mentioned 2 others with Sandie, miss Peggie, where DU felt interactions were about trans
JR - describe incidents
KS - entered while SP doing obs, DU asked if wanted to do them, SP said do them yourself and left
JR - what did you make of that interaction
KS - normally resus nurse would do full obs before or during Dr comes. Odd unless other pressing things
KS - entered while SP doing obs, DU asked if wanted to do them, SP said do them yourself and left
JR - what did you make of that interaction
KS - normally resus nurse would do full obs before or during Dr comes. Odd unless other pressing things
JR - obs are observatins?
KS - yes ecg, blood pressure etc and documenting on chart.
JR - 2nd incident?
KS - Beth called patient, didn't respond to call, patient presented with MH crisis I think, concerned. Peggie was triage nurse, asked if concern over leaving
KS - yes ecg, blood pressure etc and documenting on chart.
JR - 2nd incident?
KS - Beth called patient, didn't respond to call, patient presented with MH crisis I think, concerned. Peggie was triage nurse, asked if concern over leaving
KS - when DU found SP, SP spoke through another staff member, wouldn't speak directly
JR - what dd you make of that
KS - concerned, first I'd heard that, concerned for patient safety if nurse can't talk to Dr, we need to communicate well for safety
JR - subsequent conv with other
JR - what dd you make of that
KS - concerned, first I'd heard that, concerned for patient safety if nurse can't talk to Dr, we need to communicate well for safety
JR - subsequent conv with other
JR - staff member?
KS - asked if she recalled, she was concerned about getting invoved in conv, she said I am mixed race, I am worrued about getting involved for my own safety.
JR - what do you think she meant?
KS - this at this point meant this legal case, press attention
KS - asked if she recalled, she was concerned about getting invoved in conv, she said I am mixed race, I am worrued about getting involved for my own safety.
JR - what do you think she meant?
KS - this at this point meant this legal case, press attention
staff involved underscrutiny and views would be widely publicised.
JR - what did DU describe in meeting 29th Dec
KS - all of events of Xmas eve and 2 other incidents. That was an escalation from previous events, she wouldn't stay in CR if Beth there.
JR - what did DU describe in meeting 29th Dec
KS - all of events of Xmas eve and 2 other incidents. That was an escalation from previous events, she wouldn't stay in CR if Beth there.
JR - DU telephone notes. Seen before?
KS - not seen Beth subsequently told me about them
JR - when?
KS - 29th along with rest. Not sure if mentioned around time I sent email to IB about CR policies. May have had conv then and prompted me.
JR - might have known on 8th when emailed
KS - not seen Beth subsequently told me about them
JR - when?
KS - 29th along with rest. Not sure if mentioned around time I sent email to IB about CR policies. May have had conv then and prompted me.
JR - might have known on 8th when emailed
isla Bryson, sorry Isla bumba
KS - ????
JR - on the changing room 26th Aug 2023 incident? did she say?
KS - not sure, we talked on 29th dec, might have been mentioned before and why I wrote 8th Dec.
JR - you reviewed hate policy, quick look then likely break fo rlunch
KS - ????
JR - on the changing room 26th Aug 2023 incident? did she say?
KS - not sure, we talked on 29th dec, might have been mentioned before and why I wrote 8th Dec.
JR - you reviewed hate policy, quick look then likely break fo rlunch
JR - is that the policy you mean?
KS - yes
JR - difinition of hate incident written there, can you read and describe why you think it applied
KS - thought it verbal abuse and harassment.
JR - same for hate crime, why catagorised?
KS - we discussed, filled datix, felt criteria met
KS - yes
JR - difinition of hate incident written there, can you read and describe why you think it applied
KS - thought it verbal abuse and harassment.
JR - same for hate crime, why catagorised?
KS - we discussed, filled datix, felt criteria met
KS - discussed police, that's part of incident or crime policy
JR -
KS - embarrassing, humiliating, met those criteria
JR - NHS staff must report all hate incidents
KS - that's why we did datix and informed DU and SP managers
JR - SP manager is?
JR -
KS - embarrassing, humiliating, met those criteria
JR - NHS staff must report all hate incidents
KS - that's why we did datix and informed DU and SP managers
JR - SP manager is?
KS - *apologies missed the name*
JR - think a good place for lunch.
J - back in one hour.
ENDS SESSION
JR - think a good place for lunch.
J - back in one hour.
ENDS SESSION
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