Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good morning.
Day 7 morning session of the July hearing of Sandie Peggie v Fife Health Board and Dr Upton will be reported on this thread.

The start time is 10am, though there may be delays.
We expect witnesses Angela Glancey (led investigation) + Anne Hamilton (HR advisor)

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Instruction from the judge for any future witnesses:

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Abbreviations used:

Room is seated, awaiting panel and judge.

J - you will take an oath.
AG (we believe) - takes oath
J - asks for slow
JR - full name
AG - angela eliza glancey
JR - how long at Fife
AG - 28 years this yea
JR - job
AG - clinical nurse manager
Responsibiliites?
AG - v fast list
J - slow
AG - oncology, haemotology (among othe

JR how long known
AG - 20 years
JR - interactions
AG - no problems
JR - know GC views
AG no
JR - first involvement in this
AG - teams message

JR - what?
AG - internal incident, needed an investigating person, would either of us do it.
JR - who was other colleague
AG - wendy hutchinson
JR - did GM give you details?
AG - no
JR - what did you say?
AG - colleague starting new job, had just finished another IX and have scop

JR - you said you'd come in to do interviews, what was that
AG - advanced practicioner post interview
JR - role of investigating manager
AG - be impartial, establish facts, get statements, meet people and ask certain qu. try and assertain facts. Once complete, compile report

JR - after report, what are hte options?
AG - can decide no further action, secondly may be some internal learning through support/action plan, third recommend conduct/capability hearing.
JR - you were involved 29th feb, after suspension and review of suspension. Involved in them

AG - no, was just sent an email about it once appointed ix manager
JR - 1324 - looking for 13th march anne hamilton sent, statements sent to you. WIll find. It's right AH sent statements mid march?
AG - yes
J - 1311
JR - thanks, 10:05 email. AH sent statements to you

JR - email you mentioned about return to work
AG - the one from GM, just says FYI as investigating manager
JR - involvement in return to work?
AG - no
JR - 776, 10th April, from CM to you re ix asking for electronic notes, what were they. Middle para refs notes

AG - probably paperwork, not notes, once asked to do ix, GM wasn't able to meet ED to get info, GM left it in office for me, that's what she was asking for, susx check list, DU statement, LC statement, OC referral for SP, and B&H policy and workforce policy

JR - was was workforce policy
AG - just general, conduct
JR - when did you get it
AG - prob mid-march, went on hols end march, just before
JR - first meeting with HR about ix?
AG - met AH
JR - when?
AG - mid march then michele when she returned
JR - what with AH

AG - gave names of peopl DU, KS Sp - others
JR - and next contact
AG - hoped meeting notes had gone out but hadn't then 17th april with Michele, also to include EP
JR - why hadn't notes gone out
AG - I was on leave, HR didn't want to sign off without speaking to me

JR - meeting with michele, more info on that
AG - who to invite first, when etc.
JR - DU, ED, LC, SP, KS and EP - 6 people?
AG - yes sandie last.
JR - 809 - 12th april email you to MSF and others about witness meetings 1 hr each. Same day, letter to SP, 336.

JR - recall that letter re initial meeting
AG - yes
JR what incident informing her about
AG - incident 24/25 dec
JR -described as HI in letter, look at HI policy
One of the docs you looked at?
AG - yes
JR -page 570, para 2.1, describes in bullets. WHich do you think relevant

AG - 9 chrx GR being one, harassment inc humiliating or offensive (summary)
JR - other docs you may have seen, this is text of datix, did you see?
AG - yes
JR - 439 - DU complaint about HI 29th dec '23. Dated 23rd Jan.
AG - yes
JR - 533 - DU formal complaint, see that?

AG - was sent to me later by AH
JR - 799 -
AG - sorry must have been michele
JR - when seen first time?
AG - 12th june
JR - 806 - 16th April, from Michele to you, asking to discuss progressing as matter of urgency. WHy urgent and what stage ix at.

AG - urgency because believe org knew of legal case, but mid april was the start of IX
JR - your email 828 replying, say EP hadn't been mentioned
AG - wasn't till 17th
JR - EP involved then
AG - Emailed later that day to introduce self and as for any docs re incident

JR - EP invited to meeting, can see 18th April
AG - couldn't attend 26th
JR - one to ED and one to KS - 1341 - LC 817 all sent 18th April
AG - yes
JR - also 18th michele emails you, ED advises issues around SP leaving cubicles, need to know issues and what was done

AG - first time I'd heard anything about patient care, was due to meet DU in a couple of weeks.
JR - about DU meeting. email from you to KS, asked if she could be DU support, you say not ideal I've had a chat and we will iv you first
AG - would normally hear DU first

AG - but if KS was sitting in important we heard her evidence first.
JR - now it's april, incident was dec, complaint dated 23rd Jan. WHy delay to interviews?
AG - as said, only asked to take ix on 29th Feb, can't say why delay before, not involved. From when I took on

AG - annual leave, me and michele, made getting meetings in.
JR - person helping was michele sinclair farrow, issues?
AG - unfortunately MSF unwell, with her being off and leave it was hard to arrange.
JR - to ix activity in may, EP statement, sent to you 24th april

AG - yes
JR - 456 - ix meeting with ED on 26th april
AG - yes
JR - 469 - ix iv with KS also 26th april. Amended version (bundle ref) explain process notes were sent to witnesses and amendments made
AG - each meeting explain process, they get notes from meeting and have 2 weeks

AG - to make any changes. KS changed some of hers
JR - last thing in april meeting LC 26th april.
AG - that's blank
JR -
AG - just my qu
JR - did you meet her
AG 0 yes
JR - 9 may met DU, yes
AG - yes
JR - 1420 - DU makes amendments as well.
AG - yes

JR - LC filled in version, 463,
AG - yes
JR - EP's is 478
AG - yes
JR - manuscript comments by EP at ???, I can't see them.
AG - blank
JR - you said MSF had absences, have a spreadsheet of those.
AG - yes
JR - don't need to go into what for, colours show off work

JR - roughly what proportion in/off work
AG - less white days (in work) than coloured (off) 6 months with no work days
JR - how did you do interviews with MSF
AG - sure, iv's don't in site in hospital, intros, read standard NHS scot intro, ask qus which are pre-populated with HR

JR - seen blank templates
AG - yes that it, we ask the qus, answered and further questions depending on those, then anything to add.
JR - letter to SP on 19th july, but in run up emails with MSF about what should be in letter.
AG - yes
JR - you say is this ok about draft

JR - you mention resus, missing patient incidents and the incident in changing room with DU saying you made a point of staying in CR. Why did you not include allegations of leaving when saw DU?
AG - wasn't any ill manner in that, SP chose to remove herself, which is why I didnt

AG - add them
JR - this letter adds more incidents than first letter, why did you add?
AG - I didn't have info at first when I met DU 1st may, asked re dec and she mentioned other incidents she was concerned about but hadn't raised. Asked if I wanted to know. Said yes

AG - DU was unsure of dates but
J - pause please
AG - incidents discussed 9th may with DU then had first meeting with SF and SP, discussed what it was about. MSF and I had further discussion after and thought important to add

JR - final letter 15th May, you state avoid discussing, why
AG - standard template letter, encourage all involved in ix's not to discuss other than with us, or union rep, for fairness.
JR - 353 - you asked DU for more info on patient info, she gives more info on that

JR - 24th may, 849, email between you and the health care worker involved in one incident. Meeting held and we see at 483, 16th July.
361 19th July you went to SP to ask she come to ix meeting. 4 allegations. 3 looked at and why the 4th?
AG - reiterating ???

AG - xmas incident
JR - involvement with miss peggie
AG - none really
JR - what did you enclose with letter?
AG - all of notes, except HCW notes as hadn't returned.
JR - those sent on when
AG - around 23rd August
JR - meeting on 16th
AG - yes.

JR - what did you say about how SP address hte meeting
AG - what do you mean? union rep? Statement?
JR - you describe logistics, and you are entitled to trade union rep. what did you advise?
AG - could have RCN rep, had brought to meeting 9th may, could bring colleague instead

JR - you ref a written statemetn - why
AG - you are entitled to write a written statement, I'd not had one, a reminder
JR - 509 - is that statement, says should be considered with interview etc did she have help with statement
AG - dont know
JR - meeting didnt go ahead
AG -no

JR -w as it rearranged?
AG - yes, had arranged a second date was 12th aug, on phone said can you come 12th to SP, had been in with SF and knew his availability. But SP wanted to look over paperwork and asked for later
JR - meeting arranged for 30th august went ahead

JR - 2 sets notes from that caroline summerville and stuart frasers
AG - yes
JR - CS notes sent to SP on 9th Sept, why delay
AG - we all write notes, meeting recorded, CS wrote up, I looked over along with my notes and check with MSF on hols till 8th. ASAP checked with her and

AG - sent over
JR - correspondence with DU 8th Sept, about?
AG - diff of opinion over whether DU washing hands then got changed, it came up in conv with SP, asked DU for version of events
JR - to SP 27th Sept, email arranging further meeting 14th Oct
AG - to discuss info from DU

AG - the two didn't say same thing
JR - 10th Oct, further statement SP, supplementary written response, did she say how prepared?
AG - no
JR - 415, final version of report, 2 earlier drafts of report. first draft 1st Nov, second 6th Nov.
J - let me look, date of this is 31 Oct

AG - auto generated message date
J - which date completed?
AG - 4th Nov
J - when we look at 415, submited 13th (nov/dec), right
AG - yes
JR - as ix officer how write report
AG - use expertise and knowledge, balance of probabilities.
JR - productions, later in bundle, emails from

JR - you not produced first time round, but first to Adam watson email. Please note, C rep said no need for admin emails
AG - before Feb, I thought it meant letters, emails btwn me and MSF, but not administrative emails, diary commitments, trying to get meetings in

JR - then what did you do after that point to find emails we see?
AG - guidance from IT, including search terms, key words and to include everything that was saved.
JR - 1459 - hand written notes from ix meeting with SP
AG - my writing
JR - MSF she would say something, your

J - hang on
JR - AG penultimate line - you would have it out. We know SP complained saying she didn't say that. She said that she said, she'd say something, not have it out. You agreed. your email, sorry for misunderstanding, go with your version condolences on bereavement

AG - I agreed it was my wording.
JR - why go with SP version
AG - in notes she said say something, didn't think it imp. One was my interpretation, one what SP said.
JR - IX notes, I said if I was in the same position again, I'd have to say something. What do you think?

AG - don't think it's OK confronting colleagues, you go to your manager, don't think it's something we should say.
J - break for 10.

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