Thread by @tribunaltweets

We will shortly be live tweeting the afternoon session of day 8 of Peggie v Fife Health Board and Dr Upton to hear the examination of Dr Maggie Currer (MC), Deputy Clinical Lead). It is due to start at 2pm.

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We resume.

J Want to raise a point re timing. We have a problem with timing. We have to leave the building by 5pm so feel appropriate to stop at 3.45 as has been a long and tiring week. Do we go part heard w this witness. JR - do you have a view?

JR I prefer time limit as MC cannot come back until Tues so wld be unworkable to put her evidence into submissions
J Can u come on Tues?
MC Yes, I could come on Tues
J Could you come in on Thurs JR?
JR I have a flight back on Thursday at 3pm

J You could make that. Miss Cunningham?
NC Could I have a moment to discuss?
[adjourn]

NC Our position is that we should have MC's evidence in chief and cross on Tues and continue to Thurs
JR I would prefer to continue as planned or at least start w x exam
J Either way witness wld be part heard
JR Or u cld limit?
J I could say 30 mins chief and 45 for cross.

NC I object to being limited to 45 mins despite the timetable as matters change.
J Having conferred w my colleagues is not to time limit a witness as we dont yet know what the evidence will be. We'll make a decision after hearing Chief

JR Witness returns on Tues. Submission on Tues and mine on Weds?
J Possibly [swears in witness] I take evidence down by hand so please go slowly
JR What's your full name.
MC Been at Fife since March 2010. I'm deputy clinical lead in ED.

MC My role breaks down to clin assessment of patients, supervision of juniors, and non-clin work eg referral letters, interacting w other specialities. And a large amount of teaching. Also critical incident review and some responsibility for oversight of dept and developing

protocols.
JR How do u know SP?
MC I have worked w her since I started. We're not always present at nights and she work night shifts. We both work less than FT so might not crossover.
JR Did u know she held GC views
MC Yes, I'd heard her articulate them in non-clin areas

MC I'd heard her say it's not poss to change sex
JR When met DU?
MC At induction teaching session as a F2 dr
JR Re recruitment to ED
MC Its a jr clinical fellow post. A non- clin training role who may want to pursue ED or get more experience. Is advertised as a 12 month

standalone post. We usually have a lot of applicants
JR Who interviewed?
MC Me and another colleague. We interviewed 53 for 18 posts. Pre-employment checks done by HR including NHS Scotland checks, occ health to ensure ppl adeq protected. More staright forward if worked here

before. references checked - a min of 2. I always check the GMC registaation in case have restrictions or issues we're not made aware.
JR Disclosure Scot check?
MC They'll look for prev names or any issues that might have a bearing on seeing vulnerable adults and children

MC There was nothing in the checks
JR When aware of T status?
MC Before interview. We had a brief convo and asked if was aware was trans. I answered I had wondered.
JR When did this happen?
MC Sometime during the recruitment process, I cant remember exactly

JR Email from Doyle on 18.08 re Sensitive: CR. Who had u been in touch with?
MC With IB. It says Sept but was 28 August.
JR What convo did u have?
MC I contacted IB to ensure what we were doing was appropriate. As a trans indiv was entitled to use the bathroom of the gender

MC they Id as. She made me aware we had no written policy in Fife but this was correct. But DU had the right to use the F facilities. We discussed g neutral facilities and ? whether these wld be acceptable [sound bad]
JR Any convos w anyone else?

MC Had a convo w other consultants that checking doing the right thing. I brought up IBs comments
JR ANy convos w nursing staff?
MC Not prior to convo w IB. My recollection of timing unclear. Talked to ED who had also had the same info from IB.

JR ANything else?
MC I was aware nursing staff had raised this issue but I didnt know who this was.
JR What wld u say re the boards approach re GI?
MC Not my experience. Considered on a case by case basis.
JR WHat factors relevant to this?
MC Um. From ED perspective this

hasnt arisen freq. We'd have a disc re feelings and balance the risk to the individual and concerns by other indivs. Where they are in the process of transitioning whilst being under no oblig to reveal their medical infor. These are the factors we'd consider

JR Look at the follow up Datix report. Have u seen it b4?
MC Not recently
JR U have received this at Xmas 23? Incident re PC of Nurse A and Dr B. Did u know who these ppl were when u received the Datix?
MC [long pause]
JR It's dated 29 Dec
MC Um. Yes, I think I was at that

MC point
JR [new doc] Email from KS to ED consultants
MC Yes I am one of the ED consultants
JR Do u want to refresh your memory and read this to yourself. WHat did u make of this?
MC I was v disappointed that any staff member had had this experience in the dept

MC Whenever a medical staff member is struggling w an experience we'll share it w the team. We work shifts so is highly varied which juniors we work with. We need to be aware if any jr is struggling to ensure it doesnt impact their ability to work and check they're ok.

MC Is relatively standard
[sound going]
JR Why did u talk about a formal Gx process?
MC Obvs v diff dor Beth and the staff member. Was perceived as B&H. Is a process for this and I suggested HR wld be most approp as not sure of the details of process. DU agreed

JR Why mention the BMA?
MC They'd been v helpful what is and isnt the right process re drs struggling for a huge range of issues. Hold a lot of knowledge and a resource I've used before.
JR U say similar to a patient being abusive
MC Yes, my understanding that behav based on

a PC cld be a HC. And DU has a PC.
JR Why do u think u were informed of the incident by KS?
MC As I'm an ED consultant. I'm one of the older consultants and ppl think I've experienced things others havent. Plus I'm dep clinical lead

JR How were interests between SP and DU balanced?
MC [pause] An email chain among the ED consultant team. The mgmt process betwn drs and nurses is v separate which is my prev experience w/in the NHS. V little involvement in mgmt between the two

MC Senior nursing team wld contact SP and we'd focus on the medical team, which is what I'd expect
JR What about the seriousness?
MC Very serious. Because the events described suggest a v unpleasant convo and interactions of this type have potential to make v challenging

MC working conditions
JR [new doc] The HI policy has bullet points. Wld u describe whether any and if so which u think are relevant?
MC 4th of verbal abuse. And 6th of harassment and bullying [pause - not sure if sound has gone]
JR Top email [JR had lost page] Yr email to KS

on 30.12. What did you mean by "I guess its a good thing"?
MC I felt it fortunate none of us had the process at our fingertips and we didnt have to do on a regular basis
JR [new doc] Email 5.1 to KS, LC, ED, LH and ? "as discussed need to know is small" Why send this?

MC Cos we're the leadership team, which is small
JR Why did they need to know the C had been Sx?
MC Cos a potential concern DU might be on shift w Miss Peggie which wld be difficult. We wanted to avoid. Med rotas are written well in advance. Jr fellows self rosta and meet

ahead of starting to sort out their 6 months of work. This has to be balanced with 2 jr dr rotas so changes v hard
JR Do jr fellows self rosta?
?
JR When did 6 month block start?
MC Begining of Feb and beginning of Aug? This roster had been in palce since beginning of Dec 2023

JR So Feb to Aug 24 had already been written?
Yes
JR How difficult to change it?
MC We have 6 jr shifts across the 24 hr period, minimum dr staffing levels to provide cover. There are limitation on when return from a shift - min hrs of 12.5. Breaks after night shifts.

MC ANd has to slot around registrars and F2 and GP trainees who work a fixed rota. Changing shifts can be complex so need to change other drs rosters, at least 2 normally. Short notice shift changes are v difficult to accomodate [mobile pinging]

JR U said a concern re being on the same shifts. Why
MC DU was v distressed and had been another diff interaction. SP works fixed night shifts which means the point of concern is begin/end of shift. Overlap between staff meant the day before and after wld be difficult for DU

JR Why did u mention referal to NMC?
MC I dont know. This hadnt happened. I have no recollection of writing this and dont know why I did as I know the information is incorrect

JR What do you know about the Ix commencing?
MC It hadnt started. ED was originally due to lead but she was a witness and part of Ix so cldnt lead it. Didnt know who now was going to lead it.
JR We've had evid about chromosomes and genetics.
MC The belief there's only 2

gender chromosomes is not correct. There are others than XX and XY that affect ppls sex characteristics. ALso mosaicism - where s'one has chromosomes are mixed
J instructs quiet
MC Mosaicism is v rare and when have 2 diff sets of chrormosomes. Most well known is post bone

MC marrow transplant so carry both. Sex chromosomes in addit to XX (F)and XY, can be XO where the other chromosome is blank. YO is not survivable. Also XXY and XYY. These are all recognised syndromes
JR Are there names?
MC Xo is Turners. XYY is Klinefelters and XXY is?

JR Miss Cunningham knows and says is Swyers
J Let me ask again about breaks? Now or start cross but not finish it. Remind me.
NC My position hasnt changed and hardened as a lot of info has come out in chief. Which I can think about better later
JR I'd like to do at least half

JR an hour now. I think it's best to stop now.
J You can come back at 10am on Tuesday [reminds re not discussing evidence]. And we can discuss some issues w advocates now.
J We have Nichol on Monday and then the issue of what the C, if anything wants to do.

MC on Tues will take to noon at least. NC?
NC I wld like to give this some thought. How best to manage submissions?
J I understand. We can attend on Thurs if we need to. We'll see and maybe after the weekend we'll have a better idea. Also the bundle. We should just have the

cross of the last witness, Dr [missed].
[SESSION ENDS]

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