Second morning session continuing cross examination of Dr Maggie Currer on final day of evidence about to start:
NC Re the 1 line para of letter of 5 Jan re SP being referred to NMC: want to set a few things out. If the NMC does take FtP claim she'd be able to see evidence of
NC Re the 1 line para of letter of 5 Jan re SP being referred to NMC: want to set a few things out. If the NMC does take FtP claim she'd be able to see evidence of
referrals. Or arising from other hearings. So other evid may come to light
MC I understand
NC U seem to be acknow a referral has been made. It's what u were told in a face to face mtg
MC I never thought she had been referred. Pending the Ix results, if found if she'd broken
MC I understand
NC U seem to be acknow a referral has been made. It's what u were told in a face to face mtg
MC I never thought she had been referred. Pending the Ix results, if found if she'd broken
NMC code of conduct she cld be referred. No idea why I wrote it. At no time thought she had
NC Its a big deal to be referred, tell colleagues this
MC Yes, was no intent in my error typing the email
NC What plausible way to make that error. It doesnt look like an autocorrect
NC Its a big deal to be referred, tell colleagues this
MC Yes, was no intent in my error typing the email
NC What plausible way to make that error. It doesnt look like an autocorrect
MC I dont know
NC Going to move onto DSDs. KS had a lot to say. U seemed not keen
MC I cldnt say why we're different. My knowledge is from med sch where we learn about DSDs. I relearned for my MRCP exams and Fellowship of Emerg Med. I may have learnt in more detail for my
NC Going to move onto DSDs. KS had a lot to say. U seemed not keen
MC I cldnt say why we're different. My knowledge is from med sch where we learn about DSDs. I relearned for my MRCP exams and Fellowship of Emerg Med. I may have learnt in more detail for my
exams
NC U call them disorders of develop
NC Can u say e'one in here is alive
Yes
NC E'ne in hospital mortuary dead
Yes
NC Isnt hard to spot when s'one alive or dead
No
NC Is socially and clinically salient if s'one is alive or dead [explains further]
NC U call them disorders of develop
NC Can u say e'one in here is alive
Yes
NC E'ne in hospital mortuary dead
Yes
NC Isnt hard to spot when s'one alive or dead
No
NC Is socially and clinically salient if s'one is alive or dead [explains further]
Yes
NC All true despite fact that if JR chose to fascinating evid about the moment of death and what is meant by death?
MC Sounds like a philosophical Q
J Answer the Q
MC The diagnosis of death made by an approp qualified death and decided clinically - pulse and signs of life
NC All true despite fact that if JR chose to fascinating evid about the moment of death and what is meant by death?
MC Sounds like a philosophical Q
J Answer the Q
MC The diagnosis of death made by an approp qualified death and decided clinically - pulse and signs of life
with a stethoscope. Yes, is a binary state. But defn of death not that clear cut
NC Will try Q again as not answered. Asking u to agree that alive/dead binary is easy to determine and salient, despite the possibility of long discussions in this court
NC Will try Q again as not answered. Asking u to agree that alive/dead binary is easy to determine and salient, despite the possibility of long discussions in this court
MC Yes, in vast maj of circumstances
NC Despite some v edge cases its still abinary
MC Yes, in life and death
NC Either of the 2 main categories M and F rhat humans and many other things divided on basis of reprod functions. Agree?
MC Is dictionary defn of sex
NC Despite some v edge cases its still abinary
MC Yes, in life and death
NC Either of the 2 main categories M and F rhat humans and many other things divided on basis of reprod functions. Agree?
MC Is dictionary defn of sex
NC Is about large or small gametes, right?
MC Thats a v simplified defn yes. Theres absence of gametes, or lack of chromosomes or non-responsivness of hormones. So not a 3rd gamete.
NC 2 separate develop pathways
MC Yes if everything working normally and hormones normal
MC Thats a v simplified defn yes. Theres absence of gametes, or lack of chromosomes or non-responsivness of hormones. So not a 3rd gamete.
NC 2 separate develop pathways
MC Yes if everything working normally and hormones normal
NC Do u share SPs GC belief that u cant change sex
MC Depends on how define sex
NC Assume on the defn we've discussed...
NC Do u share SPs GC belief that u cant change sexromosomes but can change express of gender. It sint just chromosomes is also how these function and
MC Depends on how define sex
NC Assume on the defn we've discussed...
NC Do u share SPs GC belief that u cant change sexromosomes but can change express of gender. It sint just chromosomes is also how these function and
these impact. Producing hormones for 2ary sex characteristics. Sexual characs can be changed by adding hormones later on, but cant change yr chromosomes
NC On basis of reprod function, surgery can change this
Yes
NC If body configured to prod eggs y'll never prod sperm
Yes
NC On basis of reprod function, surgery can change this
Yes
NC If body configured to prod eggs y'll never prod sperm
Yes
NC Removing testicles for cancer, y're still a man
Tes
NC Says opposite re W
MC Removal of gonads doesnt change sex?
MC Not chromosomally
NC Offensive to say sex had changed
MC they'd need hormones to be added, but yes
Tes
NC Says opposite re W
MC Removal of gonads doesnt change sex?
MC Not chromosomally
NC Offensive to say sex had changed
MC they'd need hormones to be added, but yes
NC Removal of gonads doesnt change a persons sex. If uncomfortable w ext sex they can have remodelled
Yes
NC Some M have a neovagina produced
MC I beleive so
NC But isnt a vagina
MC It isnt
NC Obv not as any sperm wld be in a dead end w no eggs to fertilise
Yes
NC Some M have a neovagina produced
MC I beleive so
NC But isnt a vagina
MC It isnt
NC Obv not as any sperm wld be in a dead end w no eggs to fertilise
NC So a neovagina dsnt change a persons sex
MC Not re sexual function defn, no
NC U discussed mosaicism, being v rare and BM transplant. Do u agree is still male after a transplant?
Yes
NC Wont make his penis shrink etc
MC It wld nt change his sex characs
NC He remains M
MC Not re sexual function defn, no
NC U discussed mosaicism, being v rare and BM transplant. Do u agree is still male after a transplant?
Yes
NC Wont make his penis shrink etc
MC It wld nt change his sex characs
NC He remains M
Yes
NC He'd still have a Y chromosome from his father. Y chromosome Adam from whom all men descended?
MC Dont know enough about it to it comment
NC All those g'dads had mothers and these were all F
MC Yes in order to reproduce
NC So nonsense that BMT impacts whether M or F
NC He'd still have a Y chromosome from his father. Y chromosome Adam from whom all men descended?
MC Dont know enough about it to it comment
NC All those g'dads had mothers and these were all F
MC Yes in order to reproduce
NC So nonsense that BMT impacts whether M or F
MC It doesnt change s'ones sex
NC [reads prev Q and A re other chromosomal anomylies...] Taking the As tog that u were using gender as synonym for Sex
Yes
NC XO Turner Syndrome, XYY is Jacobs. XXY is Klinefleters ( i was wronf before)
MC I think Klein is XYY but need to look
NC [reads prev Q and A re other chromosomal anomylies...] Taking the As tog that u were using gender as synonym for Sex
Yes
NC XO Turner Syndrome, XYY is Jacobs. XXY is Klinefleters ( i was wronf before)
MC I think Klein is XYY but need to look
NC [discussion sex specific syndromes Jacob XYY]
MC They present as phenotypically M
NC Klinefelters remain men
MC They present as phen male
NC They are men as have penis, scrotum etc
MC Med defn is karyotype and phenotype. What the genetic material presents in a person
MC They present as phenotypically M
NC Klinefelters remain men
MC They present as phen male
NC They are men as have penis, scrotum etc
MC Med defn is karyotype and phenotype. What the genetic material presents in a person
NC These r v rare
MC Yes. 1 in 1000 or 3000 for ?
NC No evid to suggest DU has any of these conditions
Not as far as I know
NC So DU is male
MC Shes chromosomally male. Afaik, she is also in terms of genetalia M but havent examined her
MC Yes. 1 in 1000 or 3000 for ?
NC No evid to suggest DU has any of these conditions
Not as far as I know
NC So DU is male
MC Shes chromosomally male. Afaik, she is also in terms of genetalia M but havent examined her
[sound gone]
NC KS agreed bio sex had a clear meaning of whether M or F. Yr talk of mosaicism etc was a cynical attempt to blind trib w science?
No
NC Or worse to align trib w a sophis view of rejecting simple realities understood by lesser ppl like SP
No
NC KS agreed bio sex had a clear meaning of whether M or F. Yr talk of mosaicism etc was a cynical attempt to blind trib w science?
No
NC Or worse to align trib w a sophis view of rejecting simple realities understood by lesser ppl like SP
No
NC Thank you. No further Qs
J We'll take a 5 min break here.
P Want to clarify. JR asked u abt Datix. U said u thought u knew who the indivs were. How did u come to that conclusion
MC Datix usually says who it is. The info re who it is is hidden from some
P Can u explain th
J We'll take a 5 min break here.
P Want to clarify. JR asked u abt Datix. U said u thought u knew who the indivs were. How did u come to that conclusion
MC Datix usually says who it is. The info re who it is is hidden from some
P Can u explain th
self roster
MC They choose the shifts. They need to work a certain no of different shifts. They cant change it once written. they'd need to go to the consultant writer once its set
P U mentioned yr dep clinical lead?
MC Dr Melvin Carew [missed]
P U were asked by JR about R1
MC They choose the shifts. They need to work a certain no of different shifts. They cant change it once written. they'd need to go to the consultant writer once its set
P U mentioned yr dep clinical lead?
MC Dr Melvin Carew [missed]
P U were asked by JR about R1
saying case by case use of CR by GI
MC I have v little experience. Am aware of convos re other T identified indivs in other depts but not been directly involved
J No other Qs. Any cross?
JR No
J You are released. Thank you for yr time
NC I'd prefer to have SP as the last wit
MC I have v little experience. Am aware of convos re other T identified indivs in other depts but not been directly involved
J No other Qs. Any cross?
JR No
J You are released. Thank you for yr time
NC I'd prefer to have SP as the last wit
J So you'd like the CVP witness next?
NC Yes
J Then we'd better have a 10 min break whilst we sort the CVP
NC Yes
J Then we'd better have a 10 min break whilst we sort the CVP
[Noises from CVP on court wall]
J Good morning [sound breaking up] Can you see and hear us Miss Moore?
EM Yes
[EM takes outh]
J I write answers slowly so plse speak slowly.
[sound breaking up]
NC Yr full name
EM Emma Moore. I'm the administartor for SM
J Good morning [sound breaking up] Can you see and hear us Miss Moore?
EM Yes
[EM takes outh]
J I write answers slowly so plse speak slowly.
[sound breaking up]
NC Yr full name
EM Emma Moore. I'm the administartor for SM
EM I answer phone, deal w emails and ?
NC What phone do u have
EM A specific mobile just for SM
NC Where is the number
EM Afaik just on Charity Commission website
NC [new doc] What do these pages show?
EM I dont think I have it. Just joining instructions for this call
NC What phone do u have
EM A specific mobile just for SM
NC Where is the number
EM Afaik just on Charity Commission website
NC [new doc] What do these pages show?
EM I dont think I have it. Just joining instructions for this call
NC We're dealing with that now [pause]
EM Just have received it now
NC p 17, 31, 32 What is it
EM 1st image is scsh from phone after received the call. 2nd is notes I took during call - scribbled them down
EM Just have received it now
NC p 17, 31, 32 What is it
EM 1st image is scsh from phone after received the call. 2nd is notes I took during call - scribbled them down
NC What was said?
EM I half expected a scam as unknown no. Just said hello. A lady asked is it SM? I said yes, good am. She went on to tell me that worked for R1 and wanted to tell me what had ans was happening at R1. Was 8.30am on Fri. She had a Scot accent and wanted to be
EM I half expected a scam as unknown no. Just said hello. A lady asked is it SM? I said yes, good am. She went on to tell me that worked for R1 and wanted to tell me what had ans was happening at R1. Was 8.30am on Fri. She had a Scot accent and wanted to be
anon. She had been instructed to put aside all the post for Sp and Du so it cld be vetted (works in Post Room). E'one stongly discouraged to talk about the case.
NC Plse pause for the J
NC Talking about instructions given
EM They were told this as a high vol of post.
NC Plse pause for the J
NC Talking about instructions given
EM They were told this as a high vol of post.
EM A mixture of +ve and -ve post they wanted to vet what was coming in
NC Did she tell u about how her colleagues felt
EM She. knew a lot of support for Sandie but she said ppl scared to speak out, incl herslef. Which why wanted she wanted anon. At the end of the call she sai
NC Did she tell u about how her colleagues felt
EM She. knew a lot of support for Sandie but she said ppl scared to speak out, incl herslef. Which why wanted she wanted anon. At the end of the call she sai
"women arent safe any more". I told her to contact us again if she wanted. I wld tell MF about the call on our Fri am catch up and she was happy for this to happen
NC Next?
EM I scribbled e'thing down and immed had a call w MF
NC Did she say why she called?
NC Next?
EM I scribbled e'thing down and immed had a call w MF
NC Did she say why she called?
EM She thought she heard s'thing about SP not receiving post she shld have and wondered if had been redirected or put aside
EM I said had been at funeral the prev day so not followed the Thurs but took that down
NC Yr call w MF?
EM Went thru what talked about and Maya said
EM I said had been at funeral the prev day so not followed the Thurs but took that down
NC Yr call w MF?
EM Went thru what talked about and Maya said
she'd think about what to do next
NC Plse repeat
EM My notes didnt cover the whole convo. She asked for a phone no to get back to the W. Look at 1732, yr handwritten note, what is signif of 24/5 April?
EM Think had been training
NC What about SM pov
NC Plse repeat
EM My notes didnt cover the whole convo. She asked for a phone no to get back to the W. Look at 1732, yr handwritten note, what is signif of 24/5 April?
EM Think had been training
NC What about SM pov
EM V rare for a phone call. We need a protocol in place in case we get another call like this. What info to get and how to provide info to the caller.
JR U work for SM
EM Correct
Y've prev worked on Pink Stinks re gender stereotypes?
Correct
JR How do u feel re W being womanl
JR U work for SM
EM Correct
Y've prev worked on Pink Stinks re gender stereotypes?
Correct
JR How do u feel re W being womanl
women?
EM I dont agree at all
JR SM have a partic perspective
EM We believe sex import
JR U say TW are pretending to gain acces to W spaces?
EM Wldnt put tlike that
JR Theyre dangerous
EM We jsut think theyre M
JR Theyre pretending so can access F CR?
EM I dont agree at all
JR SM have a partic perspective
EM We believe sex import
JR U say TW are pretending to gain acces to W spaces?
EM Wldnt put tlike that
JR Theyre dangerous
EM We jsut think theyre M
JR Theyre pretending so can access F CR?
JR Are u happy w them joining CR
No, cos theyre M and we cant tell which are dangerous and which arent
JR Some men are dangerous so u dont want TW in as theyre M
EM Correct
JR U wldnt go thrugh GA lower surgery process to get in a F CR. Quite a process
No, cos theyre M and we cant tell which are dangerous and which arent
JR Some men are dangerous so u dont want TW in as theyre M
EM Correct
JR U wldnt go thrugh GA lower surgery process to get in a F CR. Quite a process
EM Yes, but afail most dont have surgery
NC No relevance in these Qs
J Can be dealt w in subs. The impartiality of the witness is import
JR Do u think Tw are weirdos?
No
JR SM doing a lot of work on AGP currently. Do u know what is?
EM I'm not sure of status of this work
NC No relevance in these Qs
J Can be dealt w in subs. The impartiality of the witness is import
JR Do u think Tw are weirdos?
No
JR SM doing a lot of work on AGP currently. Do u know what is?
EM I'm not sure of status of this work
JR Thesis is being T is just a sex fetish?
EM For some, yes
JR SM have been supportive of this litigation
Yes
JR Yr evidence is no more than saying what someone reported. Its just anonymous
Yes
JR A post room worker or just happened to be in there
EM I dont know. We're not
EM For some, yes
JR SM have been supportive of this litigation
Yes
JR Yr evidence is no more than saying what someone reported. Its just anonymous
Yes
JR A post room worker or just happened to be in there
EM I dont know. We're not
sure of the job
JR This work is needed as both ppl have received unpleasant notes. Is right and positive that the trust protects from alll this unpleasantness
EM Yes, is approp
JR Nothing untoward
EM Not as far as aware
JR Said is a mix of +ve and -ve and ppl scared to speak
JR This work is needed as both ppl have received unpleasant notes. Is right and positive that the trust protects from alll this unpleasantness
EM Yes, is approp
JR Nothing untoward
EM Not as far as aware
JR Said is a mix of +ve and -ve and ppl scared to speak
out. Not mentioned fear in yr notes. Of pple being scared to speak out
EM Correct
JR Women arent safe anywhere any more- you embellished w the any more. U added this?
Coorect
JR Doesnt incl the post worker saying not getting post and about funeral. None in yr note
EM No
EM Correct
JR Women arent safe anywhere any more- you embellished w the any more. U added this?
Coorect
JR Doesnt incl the post worker saying not getting post and about funeral. None in yr note
EM No
JR Wldnt be better to signpost to her LM?
EM She didnt seem to want to do that
JR But that;s what u do. She cld have raised a Gx or spoken to her union.
Correct
JR U cld also advised re [miised Champions?]
EM I listened to what she said, she clearly wanted to say it and
EM She didnt seem to want to do that
JR But that;s what u do. She cld have raised a Gx or spoken to her union.
Correct
JR U cld also advised re [miised Champions?]
EM I listened to what she said, she clearly wanted to say it and
we ended the convo
JR Has been media hysteria re this case and this caller cld have had different motives
Yes
J No Qs
NC Do u have any knowledge of unions and GC beliefs and M in Ws spaces?
EM Yes, we get a lot of calls from W who dont get any support from their unions
JR Has been media hysteria re this case and this caller cld have had different motives
Yes
J No Qs
NC Do u have any knowledge of unions and GC beliefs and M in Ws spaces?
EM Yes, we get a lot of calls from W who dont get any support from their unions
looking for support.
J You can leave now Ms Moore. What is next NC?
NC it wont surprise u to know there's been developments overnight so I'd like a case mgmt mtg please?
J Just me or the whole tribunal?
NC The whole tribunal is fine
J Let's have a 5 min break
J You can leave now Ms Moore. What is next NC?
NC it wont surprise u to know there's been developments overnight so I'd like a case mgmt mtg please?
J Just me or the whole tribunal?
NC The whole tribunal is fine
J Let's have a 5 min break
[our remote screen remains blank] at 12.28pm
The clerk has posted in the chat:
"The hearing is on Lunch now till 13:20 - with private Case management after lunch - the public will be reconnected once the private matters are concluded. Thank you for your patience"
"The hearing is on Lunch now till 13:20 - with private Case management after lunch - the public will be reconnected once the private matters are concluded. Thank you for your patience"
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