The afternoon session will start at 13.20 with a private case management meeting. We expect to be admitted after the private matters are concluded. Sandie Peggie vs Fife NHS Trust & Dr Upton at the Employment Tribunal in Dundee.
The employment judge has given specific directions to witnesses called by the parties to not read our, or any other, coverage before giving evidence: 
Our live tweeting is not a verbatim transcript. We attempt to report as much of what we hear in court as possible. We make every effort to report accurately and do so in good faith. We make frequent use of abbreviations: see the Substack page if meaning is not obvious.
We will correct any substantive inadvertent factual errors that are brought to our attention promptly. Our reporting is best understood when read as a whole.
Please see earlier threads from today for background and abbreviations.
Please see earlier threads from today for background and abbreviations.
People are arriving back in the court room.
We are still waiting for various people to arrive in the room.
Sandie Peggie giving further evidence.
J Still under oath
NC [to 1705]
J It's in further additional docs
NC Single msg with series of Pakistan flood jokes. Where jokes from?
SP Presume from FB pg
NC Why presume
SP I was using FB at that time and we shared posts.
J Still under oath
NC [to 1705]
J It's in further additional docs
NC Single msg with series of Pakistan flood jokes. Where jokes from?
SP Presume from FB pg
NC Why presume
SP I was using FB at that time and we shared posts.
NC You shared them to group. How feel c jokes now
SP Looking at them are distasteful. At the time, that humour - expected shocked reaction from the girls. Was one laugh emoji. Shock, horror, laughter.
NC Tell tribunal how people around you used paki when growing up.
SP Normal.
SP Looking at them are distasteful. At the time, that humour - expected shocked reaction from the girls. Was one laugh emoji. Shock, horror, laughter.
NC Tell tribunal how people around you used paki when growing up.
SP Normal.
SP My first job was shop [title inc Pi]./ Worked there for a year and was fine. Owned by a P call Jav and it was how we described people then. Not pC now but people were happy with usage then.
NC LN told story c you wanting put bacon sandwich through letterbox of mosque.
NC LN told story c you wanting put bacon sandwich through letterbox of mosque.
SP DOn't remember at lunch. Remember discussing with a paramedic and he had said that.
NC Name
SP John [missed]
NC You've said previously that NHS Fife has diverse workforce. How does race of individuals you deal with affects treatment.
NC Name
SP John [missed]
NC You've said previously that NHS Fife has diverse workforce. How does race of individuals you deal with affects treatment.
SP Like to think all treated same. One colleague was called Paki and abused and I know she wasn't' and said why didn't you just say you were Indian and she said cos I am a Pack
[missed]
NC c you asking for photos of DU? In what circs were you asking?
[missed]
NC c you asking for photos of DU? In what circs were you asking?
SP Circulating that Du had been on a night out and picture taken. Chat in department that he was wearing a dress and looked like a man in a dress. Was mentioned that it was weird. I messaged someone to ask about picture. It was just circulating at the time.
NC How many colleagues have you talked about DU using CR
SP Spoke to a number of colleagues and people were in agreement he shouldn't be. He continued using CR and I didn't want to cos of previous experiences.
SP Spoke to a number of colleagues and people were in agreement he shouldn't be. He continued using CR and I didn't want to cos of previous experiences.
NC Anyone spoke to who didn't agree?
SP LN, Fiona and Jackie James - they didn't agree. JJ said where do you expect her to get changed so presumed she didn't agree.
NC Any other colleagues who didn't agree
SP Not that I can recall
SP LN, Fiona and Jackie James - they didn't agree. JJ said where do you expect her to get changed so presumed she didn't agree.
NC Any other colleagues who didn't agree
SP Not that I can recall
NC Names of colleagues who agreed?
SP I've named previously - were in agreement he shouldn't be using it .
NC Are there more you haven't named
SP Anna Dunstan, [missed] [difficult to hear - has named five] [And now a receptionist as well, another, two more receptionists,
SP I've named previously - were in agreement he shouldn't be using it .
NC Are there more you haven't named
SP Anna Dunstan, [missed] [difficult to hear - has named five] [And now a receptionist as well, another, two more receptionists,
SP [and another - a consultant] Danielle who's a nurse. Names another staff nurse. [not sure of names so won't type]
NC You didn't name those people when gave evidence in Feb. Why not
SP Since this happened - mistreated. Didn't anyone else put to detriment. Very toxic
NC You didn't name those people when gave evidence in Feb. Why not
SP Since this happened - mistreated. Didn't anyone else put to detriment. Very toxic
SP Didn't want to...
NC How do you feel naming them now
SP Sad
NC Why
SP Because some are v close colleagues. Deeply upset. At least one of them, cos she was still working in dept.
[long pause]
NC [to p 1747] Your msg - been suspended I'm raging. How did colleagues on chat
NC How do you feel naming them now
SP Sad
NC Why
SP Because some are v close colleagues. Deeply upset. At least one of them, cos she was still working in dept.
[long pause]
NC [to p 1747] Your msg - been suspended I'm raging. How did colleagues on chat
respond
SP Very supportive
NC Did anyone at that time
J [checks new bundle docs/numbers]
NC [to 1743] You say going to off for a while. Rep told me... who?
SP My RCN rep
NC Colleagues responses?
SP[difficult to hear] Supportive. [says something about get back soon]
SP Very supportive
NC Did anyone at that time
J [checks new bundle docs/numbers]
NC [to 1743] You say going to off for a while. Rep told me... who?
SP My RCN rep
NC Colleagues responses?
SP[difficult to hear] Supportive. [says something about get back soon]
NC Tone of colleagues responses
SP Shock. Couldn't believe what had happened to me.
NC There are more like that. [1741]
J 20 mins. Near end?
NC Y. Thank you. [to doc] Gina Harding. Says is that dr name Beth. What do you learn from Sandra
SP She'd been aware in previous placemen
SP Shock. Couldn't believe what had happened to me.
NC There are more like that. [1741]
J 20 mins. Near end?
NC Y. Thank you. [to doc] Gina Harding. Says is that dr name Beth. What do you learn from Sandra
SP She'd been aware in previous placemen
SP t she was upset c pronouns being used. Taken offence.
NC To place where says official, SP v BU. Did you hear more c DU previous placement.
SP Not that moment. I was told at that time that he had caused problems while he was in his mental health placement.
NC To place where says official, SP v BU. Did you hear more c DU previous placement.
SP Not that moment. I was told at that time that he had caused problems while he was in his mental health placement.
SP I was informed later that he had asked to go to a CR making a staff member feel uncomfortable. She was later informed that he didn't need to ask as he had already used it. At that time staff felt [missed].
NC Was there anyone in Benidorm posse who disagreed with you.
NC Was there anyone in Benidorm posse who disagreed with you.
SP ONe
NC ?
SP Linsey Nicoll.
NC [to 1754-6] Please explain what here
SP Apology from myself to my friend Sandra. Asked for a picture of Beth, she had taken offence to that. Conversation with Lindsay. This was an apology.
NC No further qs. Please wait there.
NC ?
SP Linsey Nicoll.
NC [to 1754-6] Please explain what here
SP Apology from myself to my friend Sandra. Asked for a picture of Beth, she had taken offence to that. Conversation with Lindsay. This was an apology.
NC No further qs. Please wait there.
JR Issues c [? Brae?] not put to DU so no opportunity to respond
J/JR make note
JR Do you prefer I call you Mrs Peggie not [Miss/Ms] as I have. I'll make sure my subs refer to you as that.
JR [to doc] In Feb I took you to pg shared by close family member and you said you
J/JR make note
JR Do you prefer I call you Mrs Peggie not [Miss/Ms] as I have. I'll make sure my subs refer to you as that.
JR [to doc] In Feb I took you to pg shared by close family member and you said you
didn't share their views. Not true.
SP I don't believe it's all Muslim people - Don't believe that children and women should be treated like [miss] under Sharia law
JR everyone has right to practise their religion, christians/muslims anyone
SP Y
JR And have right
SP I don't believe it's all Muslim people - Don't believe that children and women should be treated like [miss] under Sharia law
JR everyone has right to practise their religion, christians/muslims anyone
SP Y
JR And have right
JR to go into their place of worship
SP y
JR But LN and FW heard you make comment about mosque. Are they lying?
SP I can't remember making the comment at the lunch. I remember conversation with paramedic.
JR Possible you did make comment like that.
SP Don't know
SP y
JR But LN and FW heard you make comment about mosque. Are they lying?
SP I can't remember making the comment at the lunch. I remember conversation with paramedic.
JR Possible you did make comment like that.
SP Don't know
JR You didn't like mosque in Kirkcaldy
SP No, fear [misse
JR Wou;dn't be nice to put bacon into a mosque
SP Wouldn't be nice, but it's that humour
JR Not nice to do
SP Wouldn't offend muslim people by saying in front to them / This is to one person
JR Would you put bacon into a
SP No, fear [misse
JR Wou;dn't be nice to put bacon into a mosque
SP Wouldn't be nice, but it's that humour
JR Not nice to do
SP Wouldn't offend muslim people by saying in front to them / This is to one person
JR Would you put bacon into a
Mosque
SP No, wouldn't do it.
JR To Pakistan flood jokes. All offensive
SP Yes
JR Reads one joke. Particularly offensive - Pakis go home
SP There's too much illegal immigration. My reasons are neither government or people living in Britain don't know everyone arriving in
SP No, wouldn't do it.
JR To Pakistan flood jokes. All offensive
SP Yes
JR Reads one joke. Particularly offensive - Pakis go home
SP There's too much illegal immigration. My reasons are neither government or people living in Britain don't know everyone arriving in
country illegally
JR So you stand by no 4 . Send them back
SP Illegal immigrants.
JR Someone growing up in Britain, told they're a P, might be very upset.
SP Wouldn't be my intention to offend people or to let anyone see it outside my group of very close friends.
JR So you stand by no 4 . Send them back
SP Illegal immigrants.
JR Someone growing up in Britain, told they're a P, might be very upset.
SP Wouldn't be my intention to offend people or to let anyone see it outside my group of very close friends.
JR Reads another joke. Holding up to ridicule
SP Y
JR LN says you often say things like this. eg Paki
SP It's how I was brought up and sometimes say Paki
JR And Chinese people as Chinkies
SP Chinatown. We have a lot of people, chinese restaurants, we got on very well
SP Y
JR LN says you often say things like this. eg Paki
SP It's how I was brought up and sometimes say Paki
JR And Chinese people as Chinkies
SP Chinatown. We have a lot of people, chinese restaurants, we got on very well
SP Chinkie, not derogatory, someone who goes to restaurant and eat the food.
JR people might be upset
SP Never heard that from my chinese neighbours
JR [ c people going back to their own country]
SP I've only ever said that about illegal immigrants.
JR people might be upset
SP Never heard that from my chinese neighbours
JR [ c people going back to their own country]
SP I've only ever said that about illegal immigrants.
SP I have no problem with people coming across to work.
JR [to doc] There's an image, Please look, and another. Posted by close family member c trans people. You said you don't share these views. Not true.
SP Don't share
JR [to doc] There's an image, Please look, and another. Posted by close family member c trans people. You said you don't share these views. Not true.
SP Don't share
NC [intervenes - what are these views]
J Need to object before q answered. Carry on.
JR Reported you asked for pic of weirdo Beth. Insulting. Derogatory?
SP Yes
JR It means not normal but us. But weird.
SP Y
JR Calling DU weirdo chimes with what LN heard you say at lunch.
J Need to object before q answered. Carry on.
JR Reported you asked for pic of weirdo Beth. Insulting. Derogatory?
SP Yes
JR It means not normal but us. But weird.
SP Y
JR Calling DU weirdo chimes with what LN heard you say at lunch.
JR You said it at the lunch.
SP DOn't think so.
JR And FW said
SP Didn't say
JR Are you sure.
SP Only thing discussing at lunch was c CR.
JR You think DU is a weirdo
SP No. Looks strange cos obviously a men who wants to be in women's clothing
SP DOn't think so.
JR And FW said
SP Didn't say
JR Are you sure.
SP Only thing discussing at lunch was c CR.
JR You think DU is a weirdo
SP No. Looks strange cos obviously a men who wants to be in women's clothing
JR Aren't strange and weirdo the same?
SP Weirdo not derogatory
JR [to messages in Jan 2024] You say the trans have all the rights. Only way i can get round this is to say not made aware of protocols before starting. Are you thinking of way of bringing against DU
SP No
SP Weirdo not derogatory
JR [to messages in Jan 2024] You say the trans have all the rights. Only way i can get round this is to say not made aware of protocols before starting. Are you thinking of way of bringing against DU
SP No
[missed]
JR In message you say trans have all rights. Are you generally resentful.
SP That Beth has a right to be in CR. We were told he had the right.
JR Suggests you are resentful of t people having all the rights and same as immigrants stealing our jobs.
JR In message you say trans have all rights. Are you generally resentful.
SP That Beth has a right to be in CR. We were told he had the right.
JR Suggests you are resentful of t people having all the rights and same as immigrants stealing our jobs.
JR [reads] inc G. "omg, it was on about pronouns" That's DU. Inhumanising
SP Wasn't me that said it.
JR Asking you if agree calling someone it robs them of humanity
SP Don't mean to offend anyone. Don't speak like that in from of people.
JR You've referred to DU at it.
SP Wasn't me that said it.
JR Asking you if agree calling someone it robs them of humanity
SP Don't mean to offend anyone. Don't speak like that in from of people.
JR You've referred to DU at it.
JR as it. At the lunch.
SP No
JR Are LN and FW lying about that.
SP Yes.
JR[reads} Gina - Insulting and derogatory to DU
SP Yes
JR and You add about the shadow and pathetic voice. Add more derogatory.
SP In a small group of friends.
JR Holding DU up to ridicule. Mocking
SP No
JR Are LN and FW lying about that.
SP Yes.
JR[reads} Gina - Insulting and derogatory to DU
SP Yes
JR and You add about the shadow and pathetic voice. Add more derogatory.
SP In a small group of friends.
JR Holding DU up to ridicule. Mocking
appearance. What you and Gina say.
SP It's just dark humour between friends.
JR These messages don't put you in good light so you've come up with dark humour explanation.
SP No. It's just me with friends.
JR [1740 - SP v DU] Sounds like boxing match. Was DU always your target
SP It's just dark humour between friends.
JR These messages don't put you in good light so you've come up with dark humour explanation.
SP No. It's just me with friends.
JR [1740 - SP v DU] Sounds like boxing match. Was DU always your target
SP no
JR Vindictive campaign against DU cos she's a t person
SP no
JR to doc - thanking someone for providing information cos will help your case, building case
SP no, info would be helpful.
JR you refer to your MP who has talked you into this. Putting you up to it.
JR Vindictive campaign against DU cos she's a t person
SP no
JR to doc - thanking someone for providing information cos will help your case, building case
SP no, info would be helpful.
JR you refer to your MP who has talked you into this. Putting you up to it.
SP No
JR But supporting you
SP Y
JR Who is funding your case?
NC objection. No relevance and privileged.
J/JR/NC discuss
JR People making noise behind me
J Please quiet or be removed
[JR/J talk re confidentiality between client and solicitor. Q is withdrawn]
JR But supporting you
SP Y
JR Who is funding your case?
NC objection. No relevance and privileged.
J/JR/NC discuss
JR People making noise behind me
J Please quiet or be removed
[JR/J talk re confidentiality between client and solicitor. Q is withdrawn]
JR [to doc] Person says [Beth] sought you out from start cos you are uncomfortable
SP Yes
JR Opposite is true. You sought DU out from start
SP No
JR [to doc text LN/Gina] Gina taken self out of Benidorm chat, unhappy, duped by someone who behaves like that. Fucking relentless
SP Yes
JR Opposite is true. You sought DU out from start
SP No
JR [to doc text LN/Gina] Gina taken self out of Benidorm chat, unhappy, duped by someone who behaves like that. Fucking relentless
in her nastiness. Talking c you
SP Yes
JR You were doing that
SP no
JR [read] Beth doesn't deserve hate campaign by Sandie and other staff as well. You were waging hate campaign v DU
SP No
JR Did you tell your counsel to compare DU to torturer in 1984
SP Yes
JR You were doing that
SP no
JR [read] Beth doesn't deserve hate campaign by Sandie and other staff as well. You were waging hate campaign v DU
SP No
JR Did you tell your counsel to compare DU to torturer in 1984
J Intervenes.
JR You struggled with family member who was gay
SP I was upset
JR and talked LN c this. You weren't tolerant of gay people before your family member
SP No I was upset because ridiculed by people.
JR Worried c other people's prejudice
SP Yes
JR You struggled with family member who was gay
SP I was upset
JR and talked LN c this. You weren't tolerant of gay people before your family member
SP No I was upset because ridiculed by people.
JR Worried c other people's prejudice
SP Yes
JR You became less upset as time went on. Because your love was more important
SP Y
JR Gay people okay because expressing their selves
SP yes
JR Being gay is a feeling
SP Y
JR People may know c it from a young age
SP y
SP Y
JR Gay people okay because expressing their selves
SP yes
JR Being gay is a feeling
SP Y
JR People may know c it from a young age
SP y
[missed]
JR You don't say t people pretending to get into the ladies
SP Some may pretend in some cases
JR What if you are wrong. T person not pretending but being natural selves
SP T person still a man and shouldn't be in F CR
JR If someone feels born into wrong body. Natural
JR You don't say t people pretending to get into the ladies
SP Some may pretend in some cases
JR What if you are wrong. T person not pretending but being natural selves
SP T person still a man and shouldn't be in F CR
JR If someone feels born into wrong body. Natural
SP Y. but still men re CR
JR Don't they deserve love as well You would love a child who came out as t
SP Y
JR FW said you tended to get changed in a locked cubicle. And LN said that too. Both wrong about that?
SP yes
LN Said thought you were making up the Xmas eve
JR Don't they deserve love as well You would love a child who came out as t
SP Y
JR FW said you tended to get changed in a locked cubicle. And LN said that too. Both wrong about that?
SP yes
LN Said thought you were making up the Xmas eve
menstrual flood. True?
SP No
JR Nearest toilet to where you were working wasn't the F CR
SP Yes
JR Could have gone there
SP No, my underwear and trousers were in the locker room
JR Reads c policies and privacy. Was your menstrual flood a cover
SP no
JR Nothing further.
SP No
JR Nearest toilet to where you were working wasn't the F CR
SP Yes
JR Could have gone there
SP No, my underwear and trousers were in the locker room
JR Reads c policies and privacy. Was your menstrual flood a cover
SP no
JR Nothing further.
J Five minute break
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