Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good Morning.
Today we will be tweeting from the employment tribunal of Maria Kelly v Leonardo UK (L).
She alleges harassment, direct & indirect discrimination. L, a leading aerospace company, has a policy permitting employees to use toilets accord to their gender identity.

This is Day 2, however yesterday was taken up with private case management. Today will be the start of the hearing.

A reminder that we post what we hear in good faith but do not provide a verbatim report.

Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity

SST - Single Sex Toilets
SSS - Single Sex Spaces
EQA - Equality Act 2010
SC - Supreme Court

Others will become apparent and added to this list for future days.

The hearing should begin at 10am.

In the meantime, if you would like to see previous cases we have covered, you can do so on our Substack.



It is free to view. If you would like to support our work you can set up a small voluntary subscription which helps with travel etc.tribunaltweets.substack.com

We are still waiting for the link to go live.

We are still waiting for the link to go live.

We begin.
Sound is poor.
dates being discussed,
J - chance to look at drawings, they don't have a scale, something for parties to consider that distances aren't clear.

J - can be measured for tomorrow?
J - pages issues is solved. I'll circle back to dates, what is the position on ACAs code, still insisting uppon?
NC - yes
J - in the amendment?
NC - yes
J - that's the specification of that? Changes of claim, lets look

ST - no opposition in principle to amendments but may mean further enquiries if something unexpected arises.
dont know how long that will take, would need to be before C finishes.
J - bring any issues of the timetable to my attention.
ST - think C's evidence should be dealt with

today.
J -
NC - no application from claimant side. one tiny point. para15a dropped off, *talking about labeling of doc*
J - inferred no intention to adjust
ST - don't think it's of assistance. On the timetable, lets go through today. Just one R witness.
NC - has that changed?

J - does everyone have power and seats?
all - yes
J - any other issues?
No
J - will ask C to come up now.
Oath taken.
J - council has said she will use Trans ID man and I will be taking notes
NC - nmae
MK - Maria Kelly, work for L in Edinburgh

NC - what is your job
MK - now? capability lead, I'm an engineer myself, I look at training and development and tech developmet.
NC - some qu on gender. What is your understanding of sex.
MK - it's sex, if born M you are m, if F you are F
NC - can you change
MK - no

NC - how can you tell someones sex
MK - I think women are beter at this from an evolutionary point of view, you can tell from across the room.
NC - how difficult is it to tell a gender identity
MK - might be able to give it a go, flags indicate GI maybe, we are all in trousers

MK - but your sex is your sex
NC -
MK - about 10-15 years ago a discussion about bathrooms in the US never occured to me that men would be in womens toilets. It's pretty damned imp to me.
NC - can you explain why
MK - my role, worked and studied in v male env 10% female engineers

MK - toilets are a refuge, for peace or to cry. eg in a pub/nightclub they are a place to escape people. It's more than somewhere to go to the toilet. It's not unusual, friends agree on how we use toilets this way.
NC - anything in your history that contribs to these feelings

MK - in the 3rd year of my degree, 2 courses, ....there was a man I smiled at in passing, followed me into library toilets. It was an eng uni, not many women, they guy was large, 6ft something followed me in. Thought he was lost. Women have experienced this, mistake? Lost?

Do i risk upsetting him? I made a joke of it, asked if lost, decided nott o hide in cubicle. Said he shouldn't be in there, etc. He realised I didn't want him in there, I didn't scream, but it was the first time I really felt trapped in that sort of space.

MK - It's a place of refuge. The first time you have a bad expeirenced, followed in street, groped etc you learn. THat was an eye opener.
NC - anything else
MK - i was aware from a young age,
J - please repeat
MK - young age I was aware my mum was sexually abused and physically

MK - I grew up in a family where women were aware, also have friends who have been raped and abused, groped and assaulted, so from my experience it is the environment I grew up in - aware of men.
NC -
MK - trying to make me cry. The last couple of years, not comfortable this

MK - at work, I have heavy periods aware of this when visiting customers, had to be very aware bleeding through clothes etc, most of my adult life. Approaching peri, got worse, need access to toilet without male colleagues seeing if I've been bleeding etc. Changing

MK - sanitary items and getting rid of them without others seeing. More of a part of my life in the last coupld or years.
NC - culture at L, particularly m and f
MK - pleasant working env, mostly m, I'm an engineer so mostly men I deal with. something like 15% are F

MK - it's older, and society has changed, but the odd sexist comment, banter, we all know what we can say. Lots of Eng are on autistic spectrum, as a woman you have to work out what small talk works for them when you engage. not as overtly sexist as some places

MK - I've worked. Often the only woman in the meeting room or zoom call.
NC - what do you feel about floor to ceiling cubicles with sinks outside?
MK - awful, a terrible idea, might be my age, but not women... noise is an issues, dropping sanitary towels in the cubicle.
J - you

asked baout mixed sex toilets.
MK - doesn't change the noise issue and the sinks issue is I don't want strangers there when washing blood, esp male colleagues knowing where I am in my menstrual cycle. COmments are made if you raise your voice about having period, won't help

NC -??
MK - the conversations about toilets are quiet and whispered at work, the few women I have discussed with say the same thing, peace, to cry, perimenopausal women also say refuge, a degree of dignity. One colleague had to express milk in there, there was nowhere else

MK - the few women I can discuss this with express the same need for a female only toilet.
NC - you said these are quiet and whispered. Why?
MK - GI in society and partic in the workplace scares people. Feel you cannot discuss freely, to learn or enquire. The men seem happy

MK - to discuss, but the women are scared of being called transphobic, worry for job, disciplined. I;ve never experienced another topic at work where collleagues can't talk freely without consequence. Had to telll someone recently that a colleague changed name, there was an

MK - awkward silence as she changed something on the screen and she said I don't know what to say anymore" it's an awkward situation.
NC - turn to page what is that
MK - JCC i s a joint consultative committee that L has across sites, a staff management committee to

discuss things not in scope of union. You are elected to local site JCC, there's a structure, senior management, HR, union, no of members depends on size of site. I was on JCC Edin. This survey comes from Luton, were comparing notes. I knew Luton had mixed sex toilets

MK - F toilets changed to floor to ceiling doors with shared sinks. Asked how it was going. A F colleagued had been, they have 2 floors of these, the unisex toilets are there, but women don't like to use them, pee on hte floor, so you can go there

MK - I asked a male colleague and he sent me this survey, think it was a couple of hundred people on survey monkey. He said its interesting the men are ambivalent, the females are negative. It reinforced what I thought, reassuring another site had same sitn
NC - any changes?

MK - heard one of them has been changed back, to M or F don't know, but I don't know that it was as a result of this survey.
NC - go to page. can you say with ref to plan, what facilities you habitually use.
MK -now or before i moved desk
NC - both
MK - sept 2024, used green ladies

MK - loo normally
J - before or after new job?
MK - before, desk really near loo. March 2023 still at that desk i was walking out and a trans ID male walked in. I was taken aback. I didn't say anything, just hi, realised must be a policy that staff hasn't been told not to use

MK - had just been washing off blood. Started using the secret toilets- refers to plan. Secret because tucked away near cleaner cupboard. No protection from men using them, but no males seem to know where they are, other F colleagues know. those are the loos from before I got new

MK - job
NC - you say others use them?
MK - there's a secret loo there and on the second floor. Everyone I spoke to acknowledges the secret toilets. Was entering one, a female colleague with menopause symptoms was leaving said it's like a murder scene, because of the blood

MK - rare to bump into people, but do. They are out of the way, not that far, but across a public area, if a woman went through door it's too that loo they wouldn't be going to cleaners cupboard
NC - in a hurry which would you use?
MK - if blood or not well, if I was going to

MK - have to wash clothes maybe, I'd go to secret toilets, quick wee other, but anything needing dignity, secret toilet.
NC - on the plan, do you have colours? Can you explain the yellow area.
MK - I think it's a mistake, when I walk down corridor, theres an accessible toilet

a sign saying M and one saying F, but I'm certain there's no stand alone toilet there. I think it's been coloured incorrectly. There's an accessible one, gents in the middle, ladies toilets. There aren't 2 fully enclosed toilets there.
NC - from your desk where is the door...

J - pink accessible, gents and ladies marked, want to confirm with R that there's no toilet in yellow area?
ST - it's not been coloured to indicate toilet, different yellow on other page. despite key there is no ..
NC - there is no accessible toilet there, thank you

MK - if I was going to toilet, it would be this one
J - in relation to colouring, green ladies toilet it's the door?
MK - yellow is gents
J - I think what's happened... what I can see when i zoom in, shape of door hard to see, its north west.
MK - if I wanted to go to other

MK - ladies loo, if you go S from other loos, 2cm then west there's a little door sign, you go into the cafe, tables, meetings etc. GO into that space, south by 5cm, go through double door to secret toilet, not marked.
J - from your desk, you leave through that door, then

J - route from desk isn't just S of desk
MK - no you have to leave the area.
NC - in terms of distance and privacy. If you stood and realised you had a flood. what is your thinking hten?
MK - how many people going to walk past, exposing blood on trousers, depends on

MK - time of day, lunch time the cafe is busy, I would need to wash clothing, would want privacy. Depends, cafe could be heaving. Ideally I would want to clean myself up in as quiet a way as possible without male colleagues seeing me.
NC -qu on how you became aware.

NC - that it was happening.
MK - aware of a man in Luton transitioning, staff talk, loosely part my team, used to go to Luton pre-covid. SOmeone mentioned unisex toilets, so suspected. Knew he had started presenting as F, 2017-18. Told they had changed to provide him a mixed

MK - sex toilet, think his team were briefed locally. Was part of my wider team. He came to visit, I was JCC rep for 2nd floor, people approach with issues. 3 women came in a bit of a fluster because a man had been in their toilets. Realised who it was, said he's only here a day

MK - they were upset, clearly didn't feel could say anything to him. I slowly joined the dots that L were allowing men to use ladies loos, wasn't sitn in Edinburgh. I knew the company must be supporting him using ladies loos. These men are ID as F they have just joined must be

MK - policy, so I looked and couldn't see anything. Men joined ID'ing as F.
NC - you didn't raise at time, why?
MK - Maya Forestater won her appeal in 2020 I think, these were pre-Maya days i didn't think I could raise it, women came to me because they didn't know who

MK - to talk to in 2019. When Maya won I knew I could raise it but before I couldn't.
NC - what did you feel they would say.
MK - I indicated I was a feminist and F in eng. I didn't feel we had an env or committee to raise it at. No individual either. Don't know if it would

have been a disciplinary, but i'd be a transphobe. I have a clean record at work, I thought I'd be marked as a transphobe, not an environment to raise it.
NC - grounds say between 1-3 trans ID males using loos, no need for names, but how aware.
MK - A joined during covid

MK - we were allowed to work in office during covid, I became aware in Sept 2022 when more people around. I observed. They have a neutral name, I was intruigued might be a new woman. Tried to work out if was a woman, are we increasing F stats? Over 6ft, clearly male, using neutra

MK - name. I haven't seen in F loo, but we discussed yesterday others have. Person B v tall man walking through office with feminine hair, new person caught my eye, not sitting near me. YOu notice new people, not big office. ANother gender neutral name. It was B I met coming into

MK - loo. C joined summer 2023, told a new woman joining the team. Great. person told me they are trans so don't count for that. So several, over time one has left, think they were told to use F loo, never confirmed they were M, but in discussions discovered I was correct

NC - how do you feel about them?
MK - I don't care as long as they are good engineers, but when I saw one in the ladies loo.... decided to speak to line manager. Can you confirm whether toilet policy is based on sex or gender? Do we have a policy, why don't I know about it

MK - done by stealth. How did I feel? Annoyed veyr annoyed. Nobody has discussed this, it had happened in an underhand way. Annoyed, really v annoyed.
NC-??
MK - the ladies in an eng firm is probably the one place you never need to queue, rarely see other women in there so few

MK - the door is opened cautiously to not startle other F colleagues. I had touched the door and the male colleague pushed through, not considering might surprise women in there, the women don't enter that way. Seemed unaware of unwritten social contract, perky and pushing through

MK - so surprised by that and him using the loo.
NC - in relation to all 3, how likely colleagues might think they are F?
MK - A and B I had no idea who they were, thought they might be presenting as F, but they were moving, height etc, women would know they were men

MK - person A, I asked a previous colleague not sure he was v observant - covid, lots of zoom - I said great you've got another woman on your team, he said not sure. Not v observant. I think all 3, how they move and are, lots of tells we would spot walking down the street when

MK - need ot know if they are male.
NC - if someone is clearly male and IDing how easy is it to mention that at L?
MK - gender ID etc completely taboo, was surprised by colleague saying he thought he was trans, lanyards and flags, it doesn't get spoken of.

NC - had to deal with them yoursef?
MK - A no, B and C yes, before and after new job. With the JCC both approached me for supports, pension I think it was, person C as capability lead for area I would be the person to come to about the issue he had. Had a good working relationship

NC - next topic. Maybe a break?
J - yes - it's 10 past, back at 20 past? Let me speak to clerk. reminder you mustn't discuss the case.

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