Thread by @tribunaltweets

This is part of of the first day of public hearing in Maria Kelly vs Leonardo UK.

Part 1 of this afternoon's session is here

https://x.com/tribunaltweets/status/1973374833237848345

Our substack page about the case is here
tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kelly-vs-leo…

We expect this next session to be cross-examination of the claimant Maria Kelly (MK) by the respondent's barrister Susanne Tanner, KC (ST)

[We resume]

ST: confirming information about no of employees at Edinburgh site - 2848, male 2361 female 587. That's from R's Workday system, so that 'sex' is how people identify. That's not the same as the number physically on site at any given time.

J: Is this the first time you have heard the number? Do you want to take instructions about it? Come back to me on that later.

[Missed a Q from the J - sound very poor]

ST: Before I start - you are entitled to your own views and would just like to confirm that what I say does not indicate my or Leonardo's views on any matter. Shall be using language used by the Supreme Court.

ST: You've been at Leonardo 17 years?
MK: 18 now yes
ST: Recent job role change? Move to different desk?
MK: Yes

ST: You're not a member of Unite, never have been?
MK Correct
ST: When you were in discussion with Unite, was that about joining union?

MK: They approached me when I got involved in JCC - wanted me to be a woman's branch officer. I felt, they wouldn't be supporting me on the thing that was most in my mind at that point. I talked to one officer and had that confirmed. Discussions over 6-8 months.

ST: You thought they would not support someone on your side of the sex/gender debate?
MK: I researched their website and yes. Very clear they would support anyone using whichever loo they wanted.

ST: Was this the public facing website?
MK: Yes the public facing one.
ST: Did you know Unite also available to members?
MK: Yes aware, and I looked at it preparing for this.

ST: You talk about company positioning itself. Two networks - Pride and Equalise. This is just 2 of a number of networks the company supports?
MK: Yes I think 7 or 8

ST: But you say the networks show the company has different views to yours?
MK: Yes. I have tried over about 8 years to set up a women-only support network.

MK: There is no network for the protected characteristic of sex. The 'Gender' network is not compatible with my views, it's very clear.

ST: So your JCC role - you started on it in 2018, and you are now a co-ordinator? Take minutes?
MK: Yes - also faciitator - organiser, supervising the recent graduate who mainly takes the minutes
ST: Elected position?
MK: Yes but some ex officio positions too - the unions.

ST: Elected to represent Edinburgh workforce?
MK: Yes. We have staff permanently onsite, manufacturing. We don't have many staff who are offsite all the time - I represent anyone who works at least one day a week on site.
ST: How many staff?

MK: Good question, I have kept asking but no one seems to really know! I think about 500

ST: How do you communicate with your constituency?
MK: Well this is why we keep asking for a list of the staff - to communicate with them. So I have an email list of some of the staff and ask them to pass it on to others who don't get it.

MK: Have been trying to use the intranet to improve this but not having the underlying information makes it hard. And some staff may not use computers much if at all at work.

MK: So all company comms has a sentence in saying if you know someone who won't likely see this, please pass on.

ST {missed a Q I think re checking stuff]
MK: Yes - this is someone who is usually a pretty recent graduate, new-ish employee, so would read over what they wrote to make sure all OK; send them to experts if necessary

ST [asks re chair of JCC]
ST you were asked about a JCC meeting earlier, I have Qs about it, but could you look at this page here while I do.

ST: This is floor 2 plan, before autumn 2024, your desk positions before and after your promotion Oct 2024. [very detailed description of plan] we looked at a plan earlier but this has the positions marked.

ST: This line is your desk to the 'secret squirrel' toilet. You said you'd walk diagonally, through the doors in the middle and then round through the cafeteria. This is a fire exit?
MK: Yes - you can go out through it but not back in. You can go down but not up.

J: You mean, without the alarm going off?
MK: Yes you can push down the bar and go out, whether or not there's a fire.

ST: Want to understand from you
[ My connection has dropped - please bear with us ]

ST Is that 15 secs from yr desk?
MK Yes
ST For this period Oct 24 to Jan 25 when amendments made to toilet on yr floor, was there an access toilet?
MK Yes, on another floor
ST Have u ever used ? toilets at any other points yr complaining about [sound dropped]

ST I'm trying to confirm re gaps in timing. U said this am..
MK After a couple of months, he came back and said he had no response / answer to my Q
ST U were told by his LM that he didnt have an answer from their LM
MK I asked him to escalate it to his own LM

ST Robin escalated to Graham. And it took two months, this was about June 23. Yr enquiry then was asking for a policy on toilets in phases 1 and 2 and being accessibsle by sex and not gender
MK Yes
ST Yr email to Jill Nairn (JN) says y'd asked Robin [describes events] This isnt just a hypothetical Q?
Yes

ST Was it a genuine Q to discover policy?
Yes
ST 9 days later u were told that they were based on 1992 health and Safety regs
MK Yes
ST So u knew what L's policy was?
MK I dont think it's clear as what did she mean by gender? A man self ID as a woman. I didnt think it

answered the Q. I was trying to get to the bottom of this
ST When were u aware they were sep by gender?
MK Prob 2018/9 when I was in Luton [sound issues]. I decided the company was allowing him to use the toilets
ST He had the approval of the co?
Yes

MK That was the only trans employee afaik
ST U didnt ask Qs back then?
MK There was only 1 person in Luton, it didnt impact me and was hard to raise issues
ST 3 ppl complained to you?
MK Yes. I think as JCC rep. They were confused and surprised, rather than as friends

MK As it was a visitor I said this would end soon. Ppl werent talking about the issue, was pre Forstster and wldnt have felt comfy to raise
ST Why didnt u raise? When did u become aware of A< B and C?
MK Sept 22 but no evid he was using the lAdies

MK I didnt know what the policy was. I didnt see him using the loos and assumed he wasnt. Was only when saw B using them - I raised in 3 days [missed]
ST Was there anyone else?
MK I think C had been in the toilet but didnt know but had personally seen B in toilet

MK I contacted my boss in March 23 I think. A day or so before cos had to think what to say
ST So was related to meeting B in toilet?
Yes
ST Look at GCCs mtgs u attended in April -June 24. List of those present and reasons for attending. JN was present from HR. U repped workers

ST Also the comms person and Unite rep and JCC facilitator and a guest
MK Yes
ST Re toilet facilities, and JCC issues..u can see where u brought up toilets
MK Yes as my indiv concern
ST Why was this appropriate
MK I thought other staff members shld know as policy was not

documented. I thought it would be relevent to a new member of staff.
ST U knew this wld be cascaded down
Yes, I knew wldnt stay secret
ST Was in minuted re toilet usage by gender [reads minutes and not knowing the policy]
MK The wording isnt mine. I had asked since Spring 23 and that I didnt know the policy and put forward a resolution

ST It says MK says shld be SS and ppl dont know what the policy was
MK I was unhappy w the policy and that no-one knew. women shld have been told of it as they were concerned abot M in the toilet
ST [reading out MK's concerns] Including need for clearly marked toilets

MK This summarises well
ST [reads re not being able to say anything]
MK Yes is accurate
ST Is this related to these 3 women?
MK Yes, also 4-5 close friends. Also men expressing concern although they've never had W in their toilets afaik

J Were u told this by them?
MK A F in M toilet may have happened but I've never been told this
ST [reads re unisex toilets] Deborah Stratton agrees with MK and ppl of both sexes likely want SSS
MK DS is one of the 3 women who'd come to me 5 yrs earlier but we'd not

discussed again
ST So they would have a discussion [missed] A senior staff member said this might be a hate crime, although not minuted?
MK Yes, I didnt think it needed minuting
ST Didi u think it was a joke?

MK I dont know. The room was v uncomfy. Men were quiet. It was out of the blue and I didnt know if he was joking
ST Did u put in a complaint
MK No. I didnt know what to make of it
ST On the same day as this mtg, is that an email to JN on 15 April from you at 12.27?
Yes

ST Look at the lower emails, saying re outstanding Qs and you say you have the same Qs. How does that fit w timing of the meeting?
MK Talking about timing of mtg and waiting for confirmation. I'm guessing she emailed during the mtg as I had a response when I got out of the mtg

MK Yes I had concerns re Ls approach
ST In June 24 , the 3rd, we have the 2nd JCC mtg
J Re time, how long will you be?
ST About an hr
J We have suffic time to not sit late but I can do

ST [new bundle] We see some repition of attendees, but a diff chair
MK He had left
ST JN wasnt present and a diff union rep. 3 guests minuted at the mtg
Yes
ST JCC issues is n 5 on agenda, look at [reads re toilet usage and clarification that no SS facilities on site and use based on gender

MK I had a resolution from Rachel and it felt we'd reached an end and was tidying up the loose ends
ST U dont agree w the companies position but had an answer
MK There was partial answers. What about if yr religious, staff being unaware. But at least knew L was happy for M to ID as W and use the F toilets

ST [reads re what women may feel] This is yr view of what y'd been told
Yes, were my comments
ST [reads re taking a yr to get answers and only told of this unwritten policy]
MK Yes
ST Wanted it to be minuted so staff aware and raise issues via Rachel
MK Yes
ST Chair invited u to raise issues via Rachel
MK Yes

ST Were these minutes put on intranet
Yes
ST Did u go straight to a grievance or?
MK I was told to go to employee relations. So went to the grievance. As didnt think I'd get more from the EDI process..it was a dead end

ST Can I just check I'm complete here.
J U have completed yr evidence for today but musnt discuss these issues
MK Yes
J We'll return at 10 am.
Court adjourned

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