This is the PM session of Day 3 of the employment tribunal of Maria Kelly v Leonardo UK (L).
She alleges harassment, direct & indirect discrimination.
L, a leading aerospace company, has a policy permitting employees to use toilets accord to their gender identity.
She alleges harassment, direct & indirect discrimination.
L, a leading aerospace company, has a policy permitting employees to use toilets accord to their gender identity.
The afternoon session should begin at 2pm
We are adding new abbreviations after this morning's evidence.
Please note that AR reported this morning was Andrew Letton, Head of Div+Inc at L.
From now on he will be referred to as AL.
The sound quality is challenging.
We are adding new abbreviations after this morning's evidence.
Please note that AR reported this morning was Andrew Letton, Head of Div+Inc at L.
From now on he will be referred to as AL.
The sound quality is challenging.
A reminder that we post what we hear in good faith but do not provide a verbatim report.
Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
Abbreviations:
C or MK - Claimant, Maria Kelly
NC - Naomi Cunningham, barrister for C
KW - Katy Wedderburn, solicitor for C
R or L - Respondent. Leonardo UK
ST - Susanne Tanner KC, barrister for R
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
SST - Single Sex Toilets
SSS - Single Sex Spaces
EQA - Equality Act 2010
SC - Supreme Court
LM - Line Manager
JN - Jill Nairn
RC - Robin Collins
IP - Ian Pawley
J - Judge
P - Panel member
GC - gender critical
GI - gender identity
SST - Single Sex Toilets
SSS - Single Sex Spaces
EQA - Equality Act 2010
SC - Supreme Court
LM - Line Manager
JN - Jill Nairn
RC - Robin Collins
IP - Ian Pawley
RR - Rachel Ruxton
TiM - Trans Identified Male
TW - Transwoman
M - Male
F - Female
SSqT - Secret Squirrel Toilet
Make UK - The Manufacturers' Organisation
TiM - Trans Identified Male
TW - Transwoman
M - Male
F - Female
SSqT - Secret Squirrel Toilet
Make UK - The Manufacturers' Organisation
Waiting for hearing to resume.
Resuming.
ST - much evidence about plans and agreed facilities. Look to 1st floor plan 2, from before Oct 24. Key shows diff facilities, pink blue and green. MK's desk marked from that time. Looking to L of desk, agreed green area is communal F facility, blue is male,
ST - much evidence about plans and agreed facilities. Look to 1st floor plan 2, from before Oct 24. Key shows diff facilities, pink blue and green. MK's desk marked from that time. Looking to L of desk, agreed green area is communal F facility, blue is male,
ST - pink is accessible
AL - yes
ST - second image with MK's new desk, with colours marked. Before Oct 24, what was L policy for use of accessible?
AL - plan was employees use facilities according to gender ID
ST - general policy on toilet use
AL - didn't have a written policy
AL - yes
ST - second image with MK's new desk, with colours marked. Before Oct 24, what was L policy for use of accessible?
AL - plan was employees use facilities according to gender ID
ST - general policy on toilet use
AL - didn't have a written policy
AL - it was practice
ST - any separate policy for accessible?
AL - no, no restriction.
ST - green area ladies, blue being male represent position prior to Oct 24, is the ladies there known to employees generally?
AL - yes I'd say so
ST - is there a cafe area marked
ST - any separate policy for accessible?
AL - no, no restriction.
ST - green area ladies, blue being male represent position prior to Oct 24, is the ladies there known to employees generally?
AL - yes I'd say so
ST - is there a cafe area marked
AL - yes
ST - would the toilet be used by those in the cafe area?
AL - yes
ST - any comment on it being secret?
AL - to the best of myk nowledge these are all accessible and it's not secret
ST - about same toilet, that was changed from F to single unisex
ST - would the toilet be used by those in the cafe area?
AL - yes
ST - any comment on it being secret?
AL - to the best of myk nowledge these are all accessible and it's not secret
ST - about same toilet, that was changed from F to single unisex
AL - correc
ST - Jan 25?
AL - yes
ST did the sign change prior to Jan 25?
J - badging?
ST - no the badging was with previos, just general use
AL - we planned for it to be changed earlier but not changed till Jan, was a misunderstanding
ST - Jan 25?
AL - yes
ST did the sign change prior to Jan 25?
J - badging?
ST - no the badging was with previos, just general use
AL - we planned for it to be changed earlier but not changed till Jan, was a misunderstanding
ST - further changes made in last few weeks to signage. Why changes made again in sept 25?
AL - understand theres a cleaners cupboard, as you go in access is needed to cleaners cupboard. Changed locks so cupboard could be in use
ST - A4 sign directing people to lock door
AL - understand theres a cleaners cupboard, as you go in access is needed to cleaners cupboard. Changed locks so cupboard could be in use
ST - A4 sign directing people to lock door
ST - outer door, changing 2 cubicles to 1 person use?
AL - yes that's right
ST - a lock placed on inner door
AL - yes
J - when
ST - Sept 25
ST - directs to doc, look to bottom, footer R edinburgh facility spreadsheet.
AL - reads
ST - in e-bundle it has that, have you seen before
AL - yes that's right
ST - a lock placed on inner door
AL - yes
J - when
ST - Sept 25
ST - directs to doc, look to bottom, footer R edinburgh facility spreadsheet.
AL - reads
ST - in e-bundle it has that, have you seen before
AL - yes in preparation
ST - prep'd by you?
AL - no
ST - numbers in column, welfare facilities, toilets and showers, Edin P1 and Edin P2
AL - yes phase 1 and 2
ST - who wrote this?
AL - H&S general or facilities people maybe
ST - when?
AL - 18 mo ago maybe
ST - prep'd by you?
AL - no
ST - numbers in column, welfare facilities, toilets and showers, Edin P1 and Edin P2
AL - yes phase 1 and 2
ST - who wrote this?
AL - H&S general or facilities people maybe
ST - when?
AL - 18 mo ago maybe
ST - P2 column, gender neutral toilets we see 9
AL - yes
ST - so there are 16 GN and accessible toilets in total
AL - yes
ST - total for phase 2?
AL - yes
ST - 9 is the number of GN toilets now?
AL - yes
ST - further changes planned?
AL - in course of qu's in grievance,
AL - yes
ST - so there are 16 GN and accessible toilets in total
AL - yes
ST - total for phase 2?
AL - yes
ST - 9 is the number of GN toilets now?
AL - yes
ST - further changes planned?
AL - in course of qu's in grievance,
AL - i reached out to Facilities to ask if there were more changes across L estate, there is a plan and I was interested in the Edinburgh plans. Took an interest in the plans, 3 phase approach, 1st to see what we had, phase 2...
J - sorry, phase 1?
AL - talking about whole UK
J - sorry, phase 1?
AL - talking about whole UK
AL - its in 3 phases, looking at structural requirements
ST - might need permission?
AL - maybe
ST - would locks need that?
AL - it's an overall look at what's there, could do easy things first as a priority, where need to convert urinals etc might need building warrants
ST - might need permission?
AL - maybe
ST - would locks need that?
AL - it's an overall look at what's there, could do easy things first as a priority, where need to convert urinals etc might need building warrants
AL - would take longer. Objective was to ensure facilities upgrade.
ST- multiple sites of L, is Edin one of older or newer
AL - the middle, few years ago a major change and investment in site, closed other Edin sites. Merged them. Investment in phase 2 consolidtaed
ST- multiple sites of L, is Edin one of older or newer
AL - the middle, few years ago a major change and investment in site, closed other Edin sites. Merged them. Investment in phase 2 consolidtaed
AL - fairly old, outbuildings. Luton is a newer site, relocated from Stanmore. Newest site is Newcastle, rent part of building. Edin falls in middle, was modernised some time ago, continuing improvement
ST - any other sites have only single occupancy cubicles?
AL - all have some
ST - any other sites have only single occupancy cubicles?
AL - all have some
ST - if that's in the plan, what is the timescale.
AL - 150k to be spent this year, and next for new facilities. timing is difficult due to permissions to do work. Recognise it needs to be prioritised.
ST - out of your area, but do you know if permissions submitted?
AL - no
AL - 150k to be spent this year, and next for new facilities. timing is difficult due to permissions to do work. Recognise it needs to be prioritised.
ST - out of your area, but do you know if permissions submitted?
AL - no
ST - Gemma Wheeler? is she assessing whether there's sufficient facilites for no of employees?
AL - yes
ST - has it been done?
AL - looked at fairly recently, within last month or so.
ST - majority of Phase 2 changes during grievance process, we heard you were in the process
AL - yes
ST - has it been done?
AL - looked at fairly recently, within last month or so.
ST - majority of Phase 2 changes during grievance process, we heard you were in the process
ST - what info did you have prior to the process?
AL - i was asked about policy and my response was I had never come across a written policy, hadn't discussed with union
ST - when did the discussion take place?
AL - just prior to grievance, that's how I knew what had gone on
AL - i was asked about policy and my response was I had never come across a written policy, hadn't discussed with union
ST - when did the discussion take place?
AL - just prior to grievance, that's how I knew what had gone on
AL - Spoke to Ian, RR and ?? wanted to satisfy myself what the practice was on site. wanted to be familiar
ST - before or after email 24th June 24 from C
AL - ?
ST - are grievances something people are asked to conduct
AL - yes
ST - just your area?
AL - no, anyone can be asked
ST - before or after email 24th June 24 from C
AL - ?
ST - are grievances something people are asked to conduct
AL - yes
ST - just your area?
AL - no, anyone can be asked
ST - you were selected
AL - yes asked
ST - what would process be if asked to be done by a woman?
AL - I think we'd try to do that
ST - did that happen in this case
AL - not as far as I know
ST - what happened at meeting with MK
AL - I saw written grievance, arranged meeting
AL - yes asked
ST - what would process be if asked to be done by a woman?
AL - I think we'd try to do that
ST - did that happen in this case
AL - not as far as I know
ST - what happened at meeting with MK
AL - I saw written grievance, arranged meeting
AL - MK came with ANdrew Jackson AJ, took notes
ST - did you have contact with MK day to day?
AL - no, came across and in JCC but that's about it.
ST - had you been at either JCC meeting before the grievance?
AL - no normally run by the site and coordinators
ST - did you have contact with MK day to day?
AL - no, came across and in JCC but that's about it.
ST - had you been at either JCC meeting before the grievance?
AL - no normally run by the site and coordinators
ST - your previous contact with MK at a higher level then?
AL - asked when it was specific issues within the JCC
ST - page 49 - I'll explain this, a no of versions of minutes, this is final agreed 26 jun 24 grievance minutes. Notes taken by IP in meeting, accurate?
AL - asked when it was specific issues within the JCC
ST - page 49 - I'll explain this, a no of versions of minutes, this is final agreed 26 jun 24 grievance minutes. Notes taken by IP in meeting, accurate?
AL - yes, there was a lot of too and fro between IP and MK, IP and I discussed and agreed notes
ST - did revision process take place over weeks?
AL - yes 3-4 weeks back and forth
ST - when IP circulated did you see MK tracked changes and comments?
AL - yes
ST - did MK raise
ST - did revision process take place over weeks?
AL - yes 3-4 weeks back and forth
ST - when IP circulated did you see MK tracked changes and comments?
AL - yes
ST - did MK raise
ST - the encounter with a trans individual
AL - I don't recall that no
ST - would you have wanted that minuted
AL - yes and I would expect it to be part of grievance. Nothing brought to grievance about that.
ST - what did you understand MK's main concern to be?
AL - I don't recall that no
ST - would you have wanted that minuted
AL - yes and I would expect it to be part of grievance. Nothing brought to grievance about that.
ST - what did you understand MK's main concern to be?
AL - main thing was privacy, and dignity in facilities.
ST - fair to say policy not being published or known by others too?
AL - yes she was asking about policy, she had been advised there wasn't one, and not communicated. We don't have one so nothing to communicate.
ST - fair to say policy not being published or known by others too?
AL - yes she was asking about policy, she had been advised there wasn't one, and not communicated. We don't have one so nothing to communicate.
ST - what do you mean don't have one?
AL - we have a policy on the system for Equalities
ST - you are describing written policy, are you saying it was written down but
NC - quite a lot of leading here
ST - earlier you said L policy was based on GI
AL - correct
ST - when did
AL - we have a policy on the system for Equalities
ST - you are describing written policy, are you saying it was written down but
NC - quite a lot of leading here
ST - earlier you said L policy was based on GI
AL - correct
ST - when did
ST - this policy or practice come into effect
AL - umm
ST - what do you mean?
AL - it's never been raised, first time was MK, I assumed staff had a choice over which facilities they use
ST - aware of any other times qu has been raised.
AL - not aware.
ST - not intending to name
AL - umm
ST - what do you mean?
AL - it's never been raised, first time was MK, I assumed staff had a choice over which facilities they use
ST - aware of any other times qu has been raised.
AL - not aware.
ST - not intending to name
ST - people, but personally in your role how long have you known there are trans ID people at L
AL - am aware, don't know timescale, have had T employees for a no of years
ST - still the case
AL - yes
ST - what steps did you take after, we know IP notes, when making decision
AL - am aware, don't know timescale, have had T employees for a no of years
ST - still the case
AL - yes
ST - what steps did you take after, we know IP notes, when making decision
AL - sought clarifications and advice, interviewed John ? and spoke to Rachel about what steps had been taken about practice in reality and whether lawful. Spoke to team with information we rely on. Make UK solicitor reached out to for clarity on law, explained circs
AL - for employment law view on what we were doing.
ST - you mentioned you took steps on facilities, spoke to facilities manager about refurbishment, to try and find additional facility for self occupancy. Spoke to Make UK re other employers whether our practice was consistent
ST - you mentioned you took steps on facilities, spoke to facilities manager about refurbishment, to try and find additional facility for self occupancy. Spoke to Make UK re other employers whether our practice was consistent
AL - with other orgs of same size
ST - full extent before outcome letter?
AL - did reach out as wide as poss for guidance, my stance on our practice was we were compliant and if we took a different line, we would have been treating our trans people wrongly. Significant
ST - full extent before outcome letter?
AL - did reach out as wide as poss for guidance, my stance on our practice was we were compliant and if we took a different line, we would have been treating our trans people wrongly. Significant
AL - +sound issue+
ST - having taken advice, what did you take into account to make your decision.
AL - 1 work place regulations, satisfied myself with that, looked at our provision of toilets, were sufficient for privacy in diff areas, sitn with our trans community
ST - having taken advice, what did you take into account to make your decision.
AL - 1 work place regulations, satisfied myself with that, looked at our provision of toilets, were sufficient for privacy in diff areas, sitn with our trans community
AL- and being an inclusive employer, wanted to ensure trans people were included.
ST - page 314 - your letter to MK with outcome of investigation. Another draft in bundle, what was drafting process
AL - at time we held meeting, MK wanted things to move quickly, she said there
ST - page 314 - your letter to MK with outcome of investigation. Another draft in bundle, what was drafting process
AL - at time we held meeting, MK wanted things to move quickly, she said there
AL - was a timeline to legal action and she had been asking for some time. Understood her frustration. had hearing as quickly as poss and the investigation. I hadn't completed outcome letter, wanted to update MK and AJ on speaking to people and about poss solutions and compromise
AL - that was rationale, working document, gave them draft and they came back and we discussed. I was traveling for business, asked for soft copy of draft report. Went through all the points again in letter, then had a meeting on 13th with MK and AJ to go through
AL - the outcome
ST - not upheld, what did you communicate to changing facilities?
AL - gave a lot of info, who id talked to and trying to repurpose facilities within wider plan, and commuicate with workforce. We talked about timeline, she asked this
ST - what do you mean this
ST - not upheld, what did you communicate to changing facilities?
AL - gave a lot of info, who id talked to and trying to repurpose facilities within wider plan, and commuicate with workforce. We talked about timeline, she asked this
ST - what do you mean this
AL - change in facilities. Arranged for union and networks to join facilities to discuss plans. Y
ST - you were in presentation?
AL - yes, delivered to union reps and network chairs
ST - who are hte networks
AL - equalise, pride, armed forces, ethnicity, carers and health and wel
ST - you were in presentation?
AL - yes, delivered to union reps and network chairs
ST - who are hte networks
AL - equalise, pride, armed forces, ethnicity, carers and health and wel
AL - being
ST - all invited and attended?
AL - can't recall, prior to the presentation to groups I gave MK sight of presentation. MK attended along with JCC chairs too.
ST - earlier say email from IP to MK about meeting and slides, when you say you invited, too?
AL - ?
ST - all invited and attended?
AL - can't recall, prior to the presentation to groups I gave MK sight of presentation. MK attended along with JCC chairs too.
ST - earlier say email from IP to MK about meeting and slides, when you say you invited, too?
AL - ?
ST - grievance appeal took place
AL - yes
ST - in addiiton to presentation, and ref to phases planned across UK, that covered?
AL - yes, it was detailed phases with diagrams and signage. Facilities management benchmarked with networks and put it together
AL - yes
ST - in addiiton to presentation, and ref to phases planned across UK, that covered?
AL - yes, it was detailed phases with diagrams and signage. Facilities management benchmarked with networks and put it together
ST - has this been comm'd to workforce?
AL - yes, at similar time to presentation and updated intranet
ST - 323 bundle - bundle discussion re print/e version.
ST - is connect UK the intranet at L?
AL - yes
ST - update on site facilities, when was this published
AL - yes, at similar time to presentation and updated intranet
ST - 323 bundle - bundle discussion re print/e version.
ST - is connect UK the intranet at L?
AL - yes
ST - update on site facilities, when was this published
AL - says 4th October.
ST - 2nd para can you read from one area, from 2025 toilets and showers, investment and permissions. As such believe several years to complete, each site responsible for own work. As discussed
AL - yes
ST - some imporvements made at Edin, signage change
ST - 2nd para can you read from one area, from 2025 toilets and showers, investment and permissions. As such believe several years to complete, each site responsible for own work. As discussed
AL - yes
ST - some imporvements made at Edin, signage change
ST - you mentioned these
AL - yes
ST - phase 1 and 2 plans outlined, following page, under phase 2 ground floor reception loo is singel occupancy, door says WC. IS that what was in place Oct 24
AL - believe so
ST - we have agreement on these but position on phase 2 1st floor toil
AL - yes
ST - phase 1 and 2 plans outlined, following page, under phase 2 ground floor reception loo is singel occupancy, door says WC. IS that what was in place Oct 24
AL - believe so
ST - we have agreement on these but position on phase 2 1st floor toil
AL - intended to change, facilities misunderstood.
ST - can you see comm, in your name, to all via intranet in October?
AL - yes
ST - onto other topics. Consultation in workplace after SC judgement this year.
J- don't use phone please
NC - my fault, I asked to be in whatsapp
ST - can you see comm, in your name, to all via intranet in October?
AL - yes
ST - onto other topics. Consultation in workplace after SC judgement this year.
J- don't use phone please
NC - my fault, I asked to be in whatsapp
NC - rather than whispering less disruptive, do i have permission
J - if it's just instructions, do you ST object?
ST - no its normal. No issue.
J - fine to pass instructions, not a criticism, clarity for all clients.
ST - Consultation post SC ruling. Page 393.
J - if it's just instructions, do you ST object?
ST - no its normal. No issue.
J - fine to pass instructions, not a criticism, clarity for all clients.
ST - Consultation post SC ruling. Page 393.
ST - a post from a diff employee Wendy Allen WA, to employees. Is this from L People? On page before
AL - we have a People update regularly. This one was follow on of discussion with unions and our trans community and Make UK. All wanted to understand what it meant as an employer
AL - we have a People update regularly. This one was follow on of discussion with unions and our trans community and Make UK. All wanted to understand what it meant as an employer
AL - wanted to talk to Uniton and T community. and from Make UK about the consultation, asked to participate, looked at qu's, inputted, presented qu to unions, you can see issued through people we would take part. To all of the sites
ST - you involved or just aware
AL - involved
ST - you involved or just aware
AL - involved
AL - in union meetings, lead relationship with Make UK and did it collectively with senior union reps.
ST - this was June this year, how long did it run?
AL - ummm a couple of weeks?
ST - you involved in submission to Make UK>
AL - no was Rachel responsible for putting together
ST - this was June this year, how long did it run?
AL - ummm a couple of weeks?
ST - you involved in submission to Make UK>
AL - no was Rachel responsible for putting together
ST - may not be in your knowledge, but how many grievances uk wide about toilet facilities
AL - not aware
ST - no more qu's, will be from NC>
J - unlikely to finish today, com eback tomorrow?
NC - subject to objection..
J - can save time...
NC - inclined to make a start
AL - not aware
ST - no more qu's, will be from NC>
J - unlikely to finish today, com eback tomorrow?
NC - subject to objection..
J - can save time...
NC - inclined to make a start
J - go ahead. whenever ready.
Discuss a short break.
Rise.
Discuss a short break.
Rise.
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