Thread by @tribunaltweets

We will continue our live tweeting of evidence in the hearing of Ms B Hutchison & others v County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust at approximately 15:05.
Abbreviations, limitations of our reporting and links to our Substack are in the thread QT'd here.

https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1980914922381852805

We are waiting to be re-admitted to the CVP hearing.

We return.
SC will continue cross examination of KD.
SC - part of your complaint, R providing inadequate changing facilities, do you mean the locker room
KD - yes the locker room and the indv CR
SC - checking one thing with you, day surgery unit had a whatsapp group, excerpt

SC - comments from CG, Claire Gregory
KD - yes
SC - referring to locker room and indiv CR,
KD - yes
SC - I'm going to explore further with your colleague
KD - yes
SC - you refer to threatening letters from HR, you're the 1st witness so I need to walk you

through the process. If any point you don't know, please just say so.
KD - yes
SC - start of the resolution procedure, are you familiar with this procedure, not going to test you
KD - I only know about this since this has been going on
SC - that's fair

SC - there's an intro, 1st section is intro, then purpose and definition, it's an agreed procedure for resolution of difference, see that
KD - yes
SC - it sets out to resolve differences
KD - is that what recrimination means
SC - no, recrimination means without fear of

consequences
KD - okay
SC - see the bullet points, if you had those concerns this would have been the right forum to resolve them
KD - we did not know about this procedure we thought we were doing the right thing, going through sisters and management

SC - now that you see it, would it have been the right procedure
KD - yes
SC - refers to formal stage
KD - yes
SC - employees have right to accompanied by trade union rep or employee of trust, do you see that
KD - yes
SC - in terms of the process....sorry take out vol 2

SC - not a letter to you, dated 29 May, 9 days after meeting, letter to ward manager, headed resolution procedure, stage 2, formal, have you seen this
KD - yes, I think I got a copy
SC - says concerns will be dealt with in formal process, stage 2.
SC - now a letter from AS

your solicitors, says 'our clients have declined to engage with the trust resolution procedure', so you didn't intend to engage in the procedure
KD - yes, we did, we gave statements
SC - you did engage, to the extent that you didn't attend interviews,
KD - we did give written

statements
SC - I'm only pausing because there is a cat on the video, it may be an authorised cat....
J - dealing with the cat
SC - there's the cat, oh it's not a cat, its a dog
J - explaining the various virtual rooms, we can't just remove one person, we'd remove everyone

J - lets see if we can carry on,
NF - might we see if we can blank the screen
J - that might be possible
SC - the dog is paying more attention than the person
J - I'm afraid we are going to get things like this, can we try and carry on
KD - I don't mind the dog is cute

J - we don't know what horrors we might yet encounter
SC - lets return to the issue of resolution, you engaged in the hope that the issue might be resolved
KD - yes
SC - your counsel took you to witness statements, 2nd email, 10 Jan, you were asked a number of questions

SC - you replied that you would take legal advice and then you subsequently responded
KD - yes
SC - you took an active part, whilst receiving legal advice,
KD - yes
SC - you objected to the Trust not allowing your solicitor to attend interviews

KD - yes
SC but you're saying that the Trust not allowing your solicitor to attend was harassment related to your sex
KD I'm not sure
J repeats and clarifies question - do you understand that you have advanced a legal claim that you have been subjected to harassment by virtue

of the Trust not allowing you to bring your solicitor, do you understand that is the case you are making
SD I take advice from the legal team
SC and the trust writing to you directly is also harassment
SD yes
SC you were still employed and participating in the i/x

surely they should be able to write to you
SD - everything should have gone through legal team
SC did you read the outcome letter that was sent to you
SD - yes
SC - none of the complaints against RH were upheld
SD that is correct

SC - heading; intimidation and backlash summer 2024, I'm asking you questions about issues that are before the tribunal, you referred to the encounter in the canteen, I won't ask you about that, it's not before the Tribunal. However, you referred to threats of disc action.

SC So we need to look at that. This is the letter you refer to,
[bundle faffing]
you say you didn't receive the letter, you were on sick leave, some of the complainants did,
SD - I felt harassed because I was expecting a letter, everyone else got one,

SC - let's deal with this, RH had raised a g/x - do you accept that it is correct that it should be i/x
KD - yes
SC - your concern or one of your concerns, it says that the i/x conclude that inappropriate behaviour has taken place, there may be disc procedures. Is that what you

refer to as threat of d/x action
KD - the letter itself is a threat
SC - has anyone mentioned loss of job
KD - it's one of the possibilities, disciplinary is a scary word
SC - are you saying they shouldn't have written to you
KD - it wasn't pleasant to read and put fear in me

SC - you also say the g/x is false and made in bad faith
KD - yes
SC - consider this, RH finds out that 26 colleagues have written to management to complain about behaviour with intimate details
KD - it felt like tit for tat, we had complained, so we got one back

SC - can you not imagine the upset
KD - I was very surprised that the letter was provided to RH and all our names disclosed
[missed q &a]
SC - one more point on letter, 'remind you of confidentiality' , can you agree that i/x in workplace should be a confidential process

are you aware that part of your case, that that was harassment
KD - yes
SC - if i/x should be confidential how can it be harassment to ask you to keep it confidential
KD - I don't know
J - questions on references

SC - let's move on. Judge - I will certainly finish by x-exam of KD this afternoon
J - good to hear
SC - you now refer to poster, do you know who put that poster up
KD - no I do not know
SC - you refer to RH unnecessary and intimidating visits to our wards,
KD - yes

SC - directs KD to document, returns to visits, 4 allegations related to that, do you see that?
KD - yes
SC - just a question did you yourself witness any of these, take a moment to read through them
KD - no I did not
SC - thank you, you didn't witness any of these incidents

and you wouldn't be in a position to say whether RH had need to be there on those dates
KD - he would have had no reason to come to our ward for a pediatric consent form, we're an adult ward
SC - how do you know he wasn't asked to do it
KD - no one would ask him to come to our

ward for a form we wouldn't have
SC - and about this next one
KD - that's a job that isn't done by nurses, but by healthcare assistant
SC - and the next two -
KD - no knowledge
SC - let's look at RH's witness statement about why he was on the wards

KD - reading - I've finisehd
SC - is that a perfectly plausible explanation for RH being there
KD - I would still question it, not reasonable
SC - you don't have direct knowledge of the incident
KD - but I would still question why he was asking us for a form we wouldn't have

SC - do you agree that by July, anything that RH did would be questioned by you,
KD - I would call it intimidation, if you don't need to be there, why are you there
SC - but RH has given a reason and dealt with each incident
SC - just checking list of issues

[waiting]

SC - no further questions
J - thank you SC
J - I'm going to confer with my colleagues about what questions we might have. You will have to leave the room. Everyone will have to leave. It shouldn't be too long.
10 minute break.
Repeats witness admonition.

We are waiting to be re-admitted to the CVP (remote access to the hearing room).

We have rejoined, J in a middle of question to KD.
J- did you ever work any other shifts
KD - Monday to Friday, then I went on to shorter shifts, and some times 4 days
J - when did you make that change
KD - 2021, after Covid I think it was

J - during Covid, did you continue to use the CR
KD - we were seconded to different wards, we used the CRs of the wards that we were working on, after Covid settled down we were using our own CR, we were a 'clean' ward, you weren't allowed to leave the ward
J - do you remember

when you started using the CR again
KD - 2022, but I'm not sure
J - we ask because we're trying to get an understanding that from 2019 everyone using the CR, how did the issue start in 2023.
KD - yes
J - how big is the CR in relation to thise room

KD - about the same size
Discussing configuration of the room with Judge
J - are their any seats
KD - there are benches (gets up to show Judge on document)
J - that's the layout, what happened in Sept, you come in through the doors, looking at the plan, a lot of lockers

J - 118 lockers,
KD - yes, a lot of lockers
J - names on them
KD - some have names, some have numbers, some have photos of family members
J - so when you came in, you saw RH at RH's locker, you're saying just 2 of you in the room, did you have a sense of that

KD - I was looking for my keys, I was aware that I might bump into someone, by the time I got to my locker, I'd looked in the offshoot and there was nobody in them.
J - the offshoot to the left
KD - yes
J - so Rose was at the end, and you're not aware of anyone else there

KD - no
J - anyone in the toilets
KD - all the doors were open as I walked by so no one in any of those either
J - so you weren't aware of Rose
KD - I was looking in my keys for my bag, looking down
J - you see Rose at the end of the room, aware there's another person

KD - yes
J - everyone says that Rose was very obviously male,
KD - yes
J - as you were walking in did you clock that there appeared to be a man
KD - yes
J - did that strike you as unusual
KD - it did, I thought at first I was in the wrong CR

J - you didn't say anything
KD - I thought I must be wrong, I was looking in my bag, and then I heard the male voice and I realised it was definitely a man there,
J - you say that Rose is in boxers, when did you realise
KD - about 2 meters away when I realised in boxer shorts

J - would you ordinarily address someone when you come in
KD - if I knew them
J - even if you didn't know them
KD - I might give them a little smile
J - anything like that
KD - no, I was tired I just wanted to get home
J - it came to your attention that Rose had stopped taking

hormone treatments, trying to get partner pregnant, can we get a better understanding of how you heard this mentioned, was it theatre staff
KD - when working on day surgery, you see a lot of different people everyday, we went to recovery to get our patients, it's a handover

from theatre staff, when I was doing a handover, someone came over and told me
J - you say 'we'
KD - I think I had a student with me
J - came to your attention
KD - I'd heard it from some of the girls and they told me the same thing
J - by one indiv or tw

KD - it was 2 staff from theatre came over and told me
J - people from theatre, some of the girls on the ward said the same thing,
KD - yes
J - let me check in NF has any re-exam

NF - yes, but I will be quick and finish this evening
NF - asked about Rose's voice coming from behind you, I'm pointing to where your name is on the plan, where was Rose when you heard the voice,
KD - by his locker
NF - there were 2 more times Rose spoke

KD - yes
NF - where were you stood
KD - indicates on plan second time where both were stood and then were sitting on the bench.
NF - thank you, you were asked qs about the resolution procedure, correspondence you rec'd, before these proceedings had you made a formal complaint

against colleague or employer before
KD - no never
NF - involved in a tribunal or court proceedings
KD - No never
NF - last issue, signs on the door - sign on the inside door, to put that sign up would that person need to come through the main door

KD - yes, they would need the pin code to get through the main door.
J - that concludes your evidence.
J - NF, who are having tomorrow
NF - BH, her husband, naming other potential witnesses,
SC - I may not have any questions for BH, will let you know tomorrow morning

Court rises, end of afternoon session

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