Thread by @tribunaltweets

We will continue reporting when the Tribunal returns after the break. This morning's coverage is here.

https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets/status/1982738518486192337

New Abbreviations:
SW - Sue Williams, NHS Trust HR
LL - Lisa Lockey, claimant

We resume.
J - *calls LL to affirm.
LL - *does so
J - might want to organise files.

NF - turn to pg 54, see your statement, last page your signature.
LL - yes
NF re read?
LL - Y
NF - true?
LL - y

NF - picture of CR, is top right your locker?
LL - yes
NF - bundle 3 vol 1, pg 468, statement of yours, you put into Trust procedure?
LL - yes
NF - answers to qu from SW in that process
LL - yes
NF - handing to SC

SC - staff nurse with trust since 2020?
LL - 1991, day surgery 2020

SC - pg 55, heading first encounter with RH 2023, say not notified RH using CR, heard from someone else. Your locker v close to RH. You'd never seen till this time?
LL - had a diff locker
SC - still in room
LL - yes
SC - Aug/Sept sometime?
LL - yes
SC - first see RH

LL - yes
SC - first occasion you see RH, doesn't do anything inapprop to you?
LL - no
SC - what were you keeping to yourself in statement
LL - discomfort at a man using the CR
SC - the effect of that person in that space?
LL - yes
SC - say you mentioned to AQ, when?
LL - not 100%

LL - aug/sept maybe
SC - what did you hope AQ would do
LL - escalate, discuss with management to see what could be done.
SC - AQ was sympathetic you say, also thought inapporp.
LL - yes
SC - you understood your manager agreed with you
LL- I'd say so

SC - go on to discussing with colleagues, we are interested in your experiences, para 23. Jan 24 now. You say end Jan, 5:45 ish, you walked in it was packed RH often there this time. Start/end shift it's busy?
LL - cause we start 7am usually just day surgery, also finish together

SC - theatre kicking out time?
J - like last orders
LL - yes
SC - RH by locker, already changed,d idn't seein
LL - a state of undress, no
SC - your perception RH there longer than necessary
LL - agree
SC - RH interacting with people? Colleagues
LL - yes, assume so

SC - you say RH gave you a look
LL - yes
SC - would RH know who you are?
LL - don't think so.
SC - going quickly, para 28, you recal conv in the I room, who is Mel?
LL - retired I think, think she was a sister in theatres, maybe eye surgery.
SC - JP and Mel in conv, gives

SC info about RH, who initiated?
LL - think they were talking, I'd heard rumours, wanted to know someone who knew RH so I asked
SC - already rumours
LL - yes
SC - you asked Mel, didn't divulge her source?
LL - no
SC - so Mel was just spreading rumours?
LL - maybe
SC - why accept

SC - rumours as gospel truth?
LL - these people worked with RH, RH liked talking about personal circumstances, no need for malice, he must have been discussing it.
SC - we have nobody coming to Trib who RH has said anything too.
LL - don't know
SC - para 38,

SC - meeting then arranged by 2 HR managers, first meeting you had with HR about these issues
LL - yes
SC - you say a notice was put up about meeting, i understood it meant anyone concerned could voice them to Ms Atkinson and mr ward (?)
LLyes
SC - you went having spoken to lawyer

SC - you could set out your concerns then?
LL - yes
SC - how many in meeting
LL - 20+
SC - how many knew you were secretly recording?
LL - a few of them, not a big secret, whoever wa sin kitchen before we went in I told
SC - how did you record? Phone?
LL - yes
SC - on table?

LL - pocket I think, quite muffled
SC - did you annouce youwere recording?
LL - no, lots knew
SC - who
LL- beth etc
SC - no thought for others there?
LL - though accurate account needed, rather than minutes
SC - why not say that?
LL - didn't want behaviour to change, when you tell

LL - patients you are counting respiratory, they change how they breathe
SC - thought they'd behave different;y, how?
LL - don't know, just wanted truthful account
SC - others were joining from HR, didn't think you should say?
LL - not essential
SC - who decided to?
LL - a few

LL - discussed, my phone had enough storage
SC - you say you recorded for your lawyers, that's a different account
LL - an accurate account
SC - did they ask you to?
LL - think we discussed it, didn't ask us to
J - so I understand, wherever this takes us eventually

J - you said something about how you discussed it between yourselves, a devise///
LL - a voice recording app
J - down;oading? Iphones come with
LL - I don't have an iphone, have an android
J - OK, we need to make findings of fact, I may get whong end of stick, agreed before

J - to record
LL - yes
J - it was your decision? How did it become you doing it?
LL - we talked, we decided one or two of us would do it, wasn't a specific get her to do it.
J - just wanted to understand how it came to be you
SC - what happened to recording, sent to lawyer?

SC - listen to it?
LL - sent to lawyer, sent to Beth who forwarded it on. Don't know how quickly
SC - pg 63 - you ref to transcript, para 43, some 6 months after TE promise to look into it wasn't good enough
LL - we sent end of March, letter with real concerns about his behav

LL - urgent concerns, it was a safeguarding concerns there should have been action
SC - i???
LL - she said it was a behavioural issue, we didn't know, I said it was in the letter she said wasn't, women saying RH was observing with a keen gaze
SC - TA was listening to your concern

LL - yes, but they should have been looked at already, 6 weeks beforehand
SC - what did you expect from TA and mr moore (!)
LL - something more concrete than we'll have a chat with Rose, she should have said we'll remove him till ix, not have a chat later in week, not good enough

LL - for me.
SC - lets look at what she says pg335, at 44mins read through transcript. TA says we'll come back to you and keep CG updated if thats OK. I've listened. nobody says not good enough.
LL - no, I always need to reflect on things, we all wanted to think about and discuss

SC - 45:12 she said I can see your feeling and want you to work with us on solution. doubt Sincere?
LL - yes, CG said we needed educating etc we knew what they thought
SC - that was a diff meeting, but that's why you doubt sincere?
LL - yes
SC - pg 63

SC -- when you talk re: threat of disciipline, is it just the mention of it ?
LL - yes
SC - would you agree the wording not threatening
LL - I felt it was
SC - it's just those words, others agree with you. Also was RH entitled to raise a complaint
LL - yes
SC - and needed ix?

LL - yes fair enough
SC - and process needed following?
LL -it was unreasonable when we were all anxious about it to say we can't talk about it
SC - but confidentiality, why is that harassment according to sex?
LL - because complaint was about a man using our CR
SC - suggesting

SC - it was the nature of the complaint, rather than standard request?
LL - expecting us not to discuss was causing real anxiety
SC - you don't mention letters about ix, but solicitor wrote on your behalf, not engaging but you did partially engage
LL - yes

SC - you felt entitled to solicitor for ix
LL - yes, the union rep was repping RH, when I contacted him he didn't bother to reply
SC - I don't understand that you are complaining about RH visiting Day surgery frequently and unnecessarily?
LL - no not me.

SC - just checking my notes.
J - one moment. We'll have a short break, I need a short conv with my colleagues. Don't talk about anything. Will send clerk for you in about 10 mins.

*BREAK*

Resuming.
J- Mrs N with her experience of the Union, Mr Nichols is that who you mean?
LL - yes
J - RH was also using?
LL - yes
J - you were aware of that?
LL - think it was when we got the letter about RH complaint that he was representing him

J - it's not unusual for union members to not see eye to eye. Or for same union to rep both C and R in a complaint. DId you go and see if any other reps?
LL - no, just thought I'd liaise with legal team instead
J - in your evidence you set up a union - unusual, dramativ
LL - yes

LL - so we could support each other, just left it
J - meeting with TA, your expectations you say safeguarding concern, explain
LL - think his behaviour was a risk to the women using the CR.
J - RH behaviour, what do you mean?
LL - the keen gaze
J - where from this phrase

J - Keen gaze
LL - knowing about Karens situation and other women who had expressed, how he'd been behaving, looking at people, was on phone, could have been recording us
J - so safeguarding for others or yourself
LL - every woman using the CR.
J - any reexamin?

NF - yes, pg 59, describe RH encounter Jan 24, maybe SC can head me off but during his qu he said the concern you are raising is that RH was there longer than necessary - is that this encounter, only issue?
LL - maybe I was in a rush but he's v masc, not comfortable, felt I was

LL - waiting for him to leave. felt like forever
NF - that first encounter?
LL - yes
NF - coughing
J - it's spreading, no comfort but I'm on the mend.
NF - yes. Then you describe moving to cubicle why
LL - didnt wantt o change in front of him
NF - when you came out he was walking

NF - around near the showers, we can see on the plans, which part are you talking about where RH walking?
LL - near Joannes locker, along to the left, just outside cubicles
NF - thank you judge.
J - that concludes your evidence, what happens now.
SC? - we got ahead of ourselves

SC - have taken more abbreviated approach and have got ahead Ms Cootes and Shields scheduled for tomorrow morning. Can bring forward a day. Will redo schedule and send over. Not sure if Prof Phoenix is fixed for 10th, but as we are going to wards short.
NF - can ask the question

NF - of JPH (prof phoenix) if there is flexibility
J - reluctant to have a gap between witnesses and JPH
NF - could consider a remote link if that means possible.
J - JPH in london?
NF - don't know
Cross talk
NF - coots and shields should both be short
J - prob work to be done

J - anyway, list of issues and timings and then I think you were goingt o look at Whatsapp
SC - that's been resolved
J - so are we calling it a day today, regrettable but necessary?
NF - yes, more prep we do shorter we will be. haven't discussed closing but could get on with

NF - those if we need to wait for JPH?
J - yes. I guess we will break then and we will see everyone tomorrow morning.

*ENDS*

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