Thread by @tribunaltweets

We return for the second morning session of day 5 of evidence of Ms B Hutchison & others v County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust. The respondent's witnesses are about to start giving evidence.

Earlier coverage is in our Substack (link in bio)

We return at 11.52 and anticipate R's first witness will be Andrew Thacker (AT), the trust's Director of Workforce and Organisational Planning.

J Updates on the ??
NF We'll hear from Mr Thacker now until the afternoon. Then Tracy Atkinson. It's her daughters 18th today so would

SC be unfair for her to be midway betwn evidence. Plus they travel together.
J How long will you be w AT?
NF I said 4 hours so rest of the day. I try to be generous
J So likely Miss Atkinson tmrw
SC I'd like to call Mr Thacker please [affirms]

J [Settling in the witness AT]
SC Full name
AT Andrew Thacker
SC [Confirms above job title. Confirms WS]
SC In your WS p130, is ref to a letter to 4 of the Cs of July 15th [takes to new bundle]

SC Is that the template to the letter yr referring to?
AT Yes
SC In para33 of yr WS, u refer to dignity at work policy. [new bundle]
AT This is that policy
SC In this section on definitions, what's relevant re this letter
AT On p37 is a para re transphobic bullying

AT on p38, making unnecess ref to a persons private life is also relevant. Also possibly about general conduct.
SC Back to the WS, p138
J [discussing heat in room]
SC Ref to the transitioning at work policy?
AT Yes [goes to new bundle p79]

SC Within this policy are Appx beginning on p90. Can you say what is of partic relevance to the issues we're discussing?
AT On p92, under use of gender specific facilities the 2nd para.
SC One other Q arisinf from earlier evidence. BH said she had to endure kindness training cos of this

AT Tim Keogh from Kind Life had given a talk about kindness and having difficult convos. How ppl might make u feel. Earlier person asked Mr Keogh to our Leading a Highly Reliable Org training. For leaders across staff gps. We commisioned him to train the whole trust

AT In March 24 we set up training from Sept 24 and everyone invited to take part. Over 5000 of nearly 8000 staff attended one of the series of workshops.
J Saying for yr benefit, we've noticed some page no typos. Para 21 p127 and page ref is p248. Isn't correct and para 20

We'll check these thank you
NF Confirms title. USed to be called Dir of HR
Yes
NF U describe yr various responsibilities. U answered re training. Type of thing yr job involved
AT AN aspect. Also People MAtter startegy. We develop strat that fit w our values

NF So not just Sx and Gx?
AT Yes
NF SO between 7.5-8k staff affected by yr decisions
Yes
NF This claim brought by F employees. My case was heavily pruned b4 the break. The case concerns permitting a bio M to use the CR and Rose's conduct within it

NF Yr nodding. Is it permissible for F to expect a F CR to not encounter a bio men?
AT I guess it wld be
NF Wld u expect a F to become distressed by undressing infront of a bio M
Yes, and wld expect the other way
NF U say u see yr workforce thru the lens of a mans distress

NF being the same as a womans?
AT If discomfort undressing wld equally apply to a man
NF The same degree?
Not made ref to degree
NF Not their partner?
Yes
NF Wld a F employee be expected to be upset w an unknow man in her prescence whilst undressinf?

AT Yes, and the other way around
NF A F at thought or apprehension of these things?
AT Not sure I understand the Q. Wld a F be distressed or uncomfy. Indiv anf their tolerance wld be different
NF Have u only thought of this now. How did u answer the Q then? Wld it be a reasonable complaint?
AT Yes

NF Fair this distress esp acute when employee has a history that sensitisses them, eg of abuse?
Yes
NF This fear/distress when the M is obv stronger than she is
AT I wouldnt be able to measure that
NF Issue put b4 you. F employees sharing a CR w large built male

AT I hadnt met any of these ppl before hand. What they looked like / intensions/ what they looked like
NF Not relevant. At no time before 2025 did u know Rose was large built?
AT Jan 25 was 1st time I met Rose
NF Do u agree the distress of a F getting to underwear in F CR wld

be aggravated by the siaze of a man
AT Yes, I think so if the man didnt ID as a W. Yr trying to say a large built M in the CR but Rose IDs as a W.
NF I'm asking you as the shepherd of sheep. U must take the Cs perspective. whether or not IDs as a W, the F employee is saying

NF I've seen an unshaven man w a deep voice. The fact he's obv larger than her. Can u understand her fear and apprehension in sitn
AT For me it depends on whether was threatening and how presented. Not the sitn we're talking about.

AT I've no reason to believe that Rose any different to having anyone larger than them in the CR. Sorry if I dont understand yr point.
NF Yr workforce is diverse and employees incl those of diff cultural backgrounds
AT Men and W

NF If for cultural reasons a F cant be w men, that cld incr distress?
AT Yes, but we;re not discussing religion or belief here and know of no complaints re this
NF Fear and distress. But a W might be forbidden from even mild state of undress w a man

NF Might she have hightened fear and distress
AT I understand what yr saying but not aware of any complaints raised of this cultural nature
NF Do u accept multiple Cx from F employees are sharing CR w a male
AT Accept 26 employees complained
NF And others too?
AT Not aware

NF Have there been similar?
AT Not aware of any
NF Did u look into whether had been others?
AT What do u mean?
NF Is this new or others as well?
AT Not aware of any other prior to this letter
NF Did u look into it
Not personally

NF Why not?
AT Was dealing w this Cx
NF was asking Qs re yr workforce. The more freely /easily as matter of practice can enter F only space the greater risk of inapprop activity by M to the W inside. Do u agree?
AT we work in healthcare. Staff are expected to follow policy and T&Cs

AT Yr suggesting ppl can enter..
NF That's not my Q. Is about threshold u apply to F only spaces. The less demanding they are the greater the antic risk must be by bio men?
AT Meaning?
NF Voyerism, assault..
J We're drifting into discussion here

NF AT is highest ranking along w Morten Smith whether Cs right and reasonable saying entry criteria too low
J which Cx
NF Within the trust. AT has to deal w the Cx. The Cs say criteria are wrong
J Saying I understand their Cx re not wanting bio M in the CR

J Discussions take up time
NF The policy T in Workplace provided for access to toilets, shower and CR based on GI. Yes? So cld use women's for all of these based upon self declaration?
AT Is an expectation that living their life in the gender they ID as. Dont have the policy here.

AT Isnt same as me IDing today as a W
NF I'll come to that. Greater risk of exploitation w lower threshold?
AT That cld apply to anything
NF Yes. We'll move on. How many staff yr responsible for are nurses?
AT 4K of which 80% likely F although managers are responsible

NF So many are weaker than M, cultural sensitivities and difficult experiences?
AT Yes
NF Health, safety or welfare or a policy, if thought wrong u have responsibility?
Yes, we'd investigate
NF U say 25 yrs exp handling Cx and disc processes?

AT Overseeing processes. Earlier on wld be in Ix.
NF U manage Tracy Anderson.
3 heads w different portfolios report to me.
NF Gillian Bailey reports to Andrew Moore who reports to you?
Yes. Also Alison Nicholson reports to me. Is a vacancy of deputy director below me that I used to occupy

AT In absense of deputy they report to me. Has been there a while. I jobshared w Morgan Smith before. So deputy 3 days a week and Dir 2 days a week. So I managed dep directot then. We didnt appoint
NF U deal w governance [describes the board responsible to council of governors]

NF Clin care groups with own triumvarate?
Yes. CCGs respon for clin service delivery. One is operational manager, one medic and one nurse
NF Trans in the WP applies to all groups?
Yes
NF U refer to OPAC, a subcom of board that reports on KPIs etc
Yes

AT Sen Lead Team is a mgmt forum. ANy operational issues delt w by SLTs. OPAC is an assurance c'tee to board on op issues.
NF Wld a poor policy count as workforce issue?
AT Cld be. Indic Cx wldnt be disc at Employee Relations or OPAC

AT OPAC do approve policies, yes. It recommends policies to the board for signing off.
NF Trust is member of a regional board, then the NHSE which is overseen by Wes Streeting
Yes
NF Changing topic...

NF p405, document disclosure. Is a statement by Sue Williams (SW) for the trust.
AT Yes, have seen it before.
NF Please read the 2 pages of it. So u were informed of disc obligations?
AT Yes, and performed on mobile and computer using the key words

NF Did u reveal?
AT Yes. I disclosed whatever I had on the searches. I didnt chose what to provide.
NF The trusts solicictors then managed?
AT Presumably, yes
NF We may return to this. U can put the bundle aside. In para 40 of yr WS, u say u knew nothing in 2023 of concerns

NF Nothing before April 24?
Yes
NF U had a briefing that u used w execs on 5 April. #Correct?
NF No records of the exec mtg not the 2 briefings u received?
AT Likely to be only a convo. Letter addressed to Morgan Smith but due to Jobshare was reasonable to cc to me, as a brief

or oversight. I understood she was overseeing this. A series of emails from op director became aware of concerns so I briefed the exec directors. It was an informal mtg on Fri pm w exec directors.
NF No minutes taken
AT Is more of a team mtg rather than formal one

NF How much did u know?
AT Aletter but not aware of mtg in April or in March
NF Aware of sim concerns since July 23?
No
AT Not until letter from MS.
NF Had yr knowledge expanded?
No. Just the letter and how to handle concerns, via resoln method which is how we do things.

NF I see no note of this. July 23 concerns though
AT I only aware from the letter
NF So u were aware of earlier
AT I think I was on holiday whne it arrived. MS emailed w a copy of the letter attached. Dir of Operations also aware of concerns. I briefed on Apr 5th to execs

AT I wld have asked Tracey if prev concerns
NF By Mis Atkinson will have briefed u before?
Yes
NF SHe told u about July 23. Did she tell u b4 u briefed the execs or not? U say u knew of history. When told?
AT I cant remember. Was a convo rather than a mtg

NF LL talked about concerns..
AT 1st I knew was when letter arrived. I didnt know about earlier concerns until later. April and May mtgs held and as things between clearer was when they provided feedback to me
NF Yr not sure if was a history to this?

AT I wasnt aware until later
NF Issue is distress re RH presence in CR and RH's behaviour
AT I have read the letter
AT The allegs re behaviour relate to behav in the CR. Go to the letter in bundle 3

NF [above comment was NF too] This is all about behaviour in the CR
AT Yes
NF None of these Complaints wld have come about if RH was not permitted to use the CR
AT Yes
NF Here's a good place to break
J [gives admonition re evidence] We'll return at 2pm

SESSION ENDS

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