Thread by @tribunaltweets

We will resume our Darlington coverage here after the break at approx 15:34.

Earlier sessions of today and all previous days can be found on our Substack tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/eight-nurses…

We resume.

J - of you go
NF - bundle 2 427, you say Morning AMc, all these things come with costs, we are now in June, if you scroll back she mentions Ellie?
NF - Ellie has responsibility for estates. Eleanor Earl (EE) she sends message to AMc with options, DMH first floor

NF - that's what we are talking about Darlington Mem Hospital
AT - yes, the others are the other two main hospitals
NF - she says under DMH, option - split office to create GN CR, second near high dependency would need new doorway. If we look at other hospitals, needs H&S

and other considerations inc PFI
AT - private finance initiative for some hospitals
NF - QEF?
AT - another part of estates
NF - and fire safety
AT - yes
NF - and mentions shower
AT - yes
NF - email 426 you write to AM, these are the options, all incur costs, no funds ID'd

NF - these are options that inovlved building work. What sort of facilities being discussed
AT - I wasn't involved but there had been a meeting mentioning looking at estates, my involvement was from email from AMc. I had had no involvement in what or where.
NF - 2 ref to GN CRs

NF - meaning what, for men and women to use
AT - presumably
NF - your assumption bu tyou didn't know
AT - correct
NF - you asked for costs for options
AT - I asked AMc, in email I said I guess they come with costs, no mention anywhere. Didn't ask
NF - you said do you know cost

AT - yes beg your pardon
NF - AMc said yes, they do come with costs and that we have no funding. DMH would have to be funded through QEF. Says we should think about an F only CR and a GN CR.
AT - yes
NF - she says we can't do what leisure centres do as no room

NF - what became of the question?
AT - I don't know, I didn't take it any further
NF - you were only person on the email, so it stopped with you
AT - yes
NF - same day 11 June, this is what you said, these are the options and there are no funds. major problem, then heard from

NF - Helen popper? HP that a place for the objecting nurses had been identified.
AT - yes
NF - read your statement, detail from HP, 2 spaces on DSU, for the individuals. They are all women aren't they
AT - It said any individuals
NF - but the objectors were all female
AT - yes

NF - did alarm bells not ring that you were treating the women detrimentally
AT - there was a lot going on, was just concerned that people had some space to use to feel comfortable
NF - you weren't doing that HP did
AT - I don't know if the assumption is that I was involved in

AT - all of this but I wasn't across the detail.
NF - pg 455 bundle 2 - towards end June 26th, message from you to Moore and TA, check in with Helen Coffer (apols have been using HP) about proposal. can we check this has been cascaded and see if anyone will use them

NF - so it occured to you that nobody might want to use them
AT - wanted to check arrangements had been cascaded and to see if anyone was using
NF - did you wonder if they were adequate?
AT - no
NF - 140 bundle your WS, you say info to IX that the alternative CR were used

NF - including by some of C's, not seen any complaints about these alternatives but complaints in the media, you are measuring adequacy by media coverage?
AT - as said, we weren't involved in issues raised.
NF - perspective of C and colleagues at least some complained from summer

NF - 23 about RH and his concerning behaviour, they saw nothing done for almost a year and then told they had to change elsewhere, in a meeting room and cubicle round the corner. Did you not think they might feel their complaints weren't worth hearing
AT - no
NF - and would

NF - amount to nothing?
AT - not at all
NF - to address this issue, of temprorary CR, they were still in use in ?? 25, you describe facilities at 86
AT - yes
NF - are you suggesting there that the C were wrong to describe them as inadequate and inapprop?
AT - in the media

AT - there wa sa narrative that they were getting changed in a room that opened onto a corridor, a patient side room, so I went to the DSU for the first time to see what was available for colleagues, Single lockable cubicle and lockers. Cubicle for changing and locker room for

AT - storage. Wanted to visualise for myself what was being said in the media was inadequate.
NF - and what you saw, 26 signatures to the letter, was a room you understood for lockers and a single cubicle for changing
AT - yes
NF - again, are you saying that was an adequate

NF - facilities for them
AT - not saying adequate, just wanted to see for myself. No idea how dept works, just went to see facilities for myself. That was the purpose.
NF - did you satisfy yourself it was lawful to use those rooms for those women to change and store things?

AT - whether rooms were lawful?
NF - bundle 863 - exchange of emails, from mr cook to claire gregory and others 16th Aug, cost from contractor to change meeting room being used to a hazard room. £9200 roughly. FOrmer manager office now being used as a CR. Thats the temp. locker

NF - room?
AT - no involvement - don't know which rooms they are talking of
NF - will pick upwith other witnesses. 24th Sept from Helen ? to others, Hi Sandra, cubicle can only accom 1 person, not compliant with fire regs in locker room. Discussions with staff going ahead

NF - I read that as the temp locker room not compliant with fire regs. Aware?
AT - no
NF - sept 24, C case is that room was in use in July 25, presumably you can't say if work ever done
AT - not involved in email chains about the conversion
NF - time?
J - 4:30 finish? Done?

NF - not quite
J - also need to talk about the statements, continue
NF - to bundle - back in time a bit, exchange btwn you and Noel Scanlon
AT - former director of nursing, retired dec 24.
NF - where is he in structure
AT - Exec Direct
NF - board member?

AT - yes
NF - before press etc, email from him saying TA and ? don't know that C's are going to press, is going to be tabloid story. Needs resolution
AT yes
NF - you say complex area, lots of case law, what cases?
AT - general observation
NF - you say looking at policy and

NF - creating animosity, sad they are behaving this way, say there is a petition against, you had made up your mind about this
AT - no
NF - a separate TG CR is neither feasible or reasonable, you had decided back in May that wasn't feasible or reasonable for RH.
AT - that is

AT - what I said to Noel yes
NF - your oversight and involvement in the correspondence was to try and move 26 nurses in limited facilities yes.
AT - wanted to provide facilities for everyone. Email from Noel caught be by surprise, staff seeing lawyers etc. Then spoke to TA and AM

AT - and got back to Noel. Everyone was working for a resolution.
NF - AM had input into this text?
AT - no
NF - you've taken resolutions off the table, no TG CR, and no review of policy you want to remain inclusive. You were working towards the specific resolution, reject the

NF - complaint
AT - disagree.
NF - think that's time.
J - yes
SC - I mentioned to AT earlier being open people travel together but
J - yes, you are driving home with others, but you are part heard and mustn't talk to others, they mustn't ask.

J - you may go
J - looked at presidential practice on remote hearings and open justice, para 10, where partly remote hearings, where one or more of parties are present, press or public may observe - fine. 10.2 press or public may inspect WS 10.3 hearing in largest room

J - parties can attend remotely from another room. Fit Note 1 to para 9 on remote observation, looking at what it refers to. 9.3 press/public can see WS when given in chief, placing WS on screen not practical, nor is reading aloud. If not practicable, Trib can hear subs on open

J - justice. Some prof reps may be able to set up website with open web page for read only, for press and public but they may not copy. Also can send e-copies to press and public by making avail for download.
SC- it's imp they are available, need to take instructions

SC- making avail for download seems most sensible
J - feasibility issue
NF - given it's one request, seems reasonable
J - just one at the moment, could open floodgates, lets hope not
Hale quoted
NF - Hale says reps best to disseminate
J- best to leave with solicitors?
SC - yes

SC - can't d o tonight, but will speak with AT
J - it's a qu of open justice
SC - yes, just a matter of how
J - hopefully listening and can update tomorrow.
SC - I hope they can hold on.
J - a timing update?
NF - another hour with AT, maybe my solicitor is sceptical?

NF - aware there are others tomorrow.
SC - will update timings
NF - I'll try to be judicious with time.
J - Thank you very much.

*ENDS*

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