We will shortly be live tweeting day 9 of evidence from the hearing of Ms B Hutchison & others v County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust being held at Newcastle Employment Tribunal.
A group of nurses from Darlington Memorial Hospital are bringing this ET against their employers alleging sexual harassment and sex discrimination
A group of nurses from Darlington Memorial Hospital are bringing this ET against their employers alleging sexual harassment and sex discrimination
It concerns the Trust’s policy of allowing a male colleague, identifying as a woman named Rose Henderson, to use the female changing room.
The nurses argue that sharing the changing facilities with Henderson has caused them distress. One nurse, a survivor of sexual abuse, reported experiencing panic attacks.
After raising concerns with hospital management, they were informed they needed to be “re-educated” to be more 'inclusive' and offered an office space to change in instead of the female changing room.
The nurses argue that sharing the changing facilities with Henderson has caused them distress. One nurse, a survivor of sexual abuse, reported experiencing panic attacks.
After raising concerns with hospital management, they were informed they needed to be “re-educated” to be more 'inclusive' and offered an office space to change in instead of the female changing room.
Our full coverage can be found at
https://
-v-county-durham-and
We report what we hear in good faith but do not provide a verbatim record of proceedings.tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/eight-nurses
https://
-v-county-durham-and
We report what we hear in good faith but do not provide a verbatim record of proceedings.tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/eight-nurses
Abbreviations:
C/Ns - Claimants - the Darlington nurses
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for Claimants
MP - Michael Phillips, solicitor for claimants
PS - Pavel Stroilov, C’s solicitor, preliminary hearing
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
J/REJ - Regional Employment Judge Robertson
EJ - Employment Judge
ET - Employment Tribunal
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
DMH/H/Hospital - Darlington Memorial Hospital
C/Ns - Claimants - the Darlington nurses
NF - Niazi Fetto KC, barrister for Claimants
MP - Michael Phillips, solicitor for claimants
PS - Pavel Stroilov, C’s solicitor, preliminary hearing
R/T/Trust - Respondent, County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
SC - Simon Cheetham, KC, barrister for respondents
J/REJ - Regional Employment Judge Robertson
EJ - Employment Judge
ET - Employment Tribunal
RH - Rose Henderson, trans identifying nurse
DMH/H/Hospital - Darlington Memorial Hospital
The Claimant Nurses:
KD - Karen Danson
BH - Bethany Hutchison
CH - Carly Hoy
JP - Jane Peveller
MG - Mary Annice Grundy
TH - Tracey Hooper
ST - Sharen Trevarrow
LL - Lisa Lockey
KD - Karen Danson
BH - Bethany Hutchison
CH - Carly Hoy
JP - Jane Peveller
MG - Mary Annice Grundy
TH - Tracey Hooper
ST - Sharen Trevarrow
LL - Lisa Lockey
Other names:
CG - Claire Gregory, Ward Manager
SS - Siobhan Sinclair, Housekeeper & Well-being officer, at DMH, now retired
SW - Sue Williams, HR at Trust
TA - Tracy Atkinson, HR at Trust
AT - Andrew Thacker, Director of Workforce and Organisational Development
DP - David Purdue, Joint Regional Chief Nurse for North East and Yorkshire
GH - Gill Hunt, Interim Joint Regional Chief Nurse for NHS England in North East and Yorkshire
ST - Stephen Twist, Darlington Trust’s Audit and Governance Committee, an elected Public Governor
RS - Professor Richard Scothon, Chairman of Trust
AM - Andrew Moore, Head of Workforce Experience at Trust
CG - Claire Gregory, Ward Manager
SS - Siobhan Sinclair, Housekeeper & Well-being officer, at DMH, now retired
SW - Sue Williams, HR at Trust
TA - Tracy Atkinson, HR at Trust
AT - Andrew Thacker, Director of Workforce and Organisational Development
DP - David Purdue, Joint Regional Chief Nurse for North East and Yorkshire
GH - Gill Hunt, Interim Joint Regional Chief Nurse for NHS England in North East and Yorkshire
ST - Stephen Twist, Darlington Trust’s Audit and Governance Committee, an elected Public Governor
RS - Professor Richard Scothon, Chairman of Trust
AM - Andrew Moore, Head of Workforce Experience at Trust
More Abbreviations:
TG - Transgender
TW - Transwoman
CR/CF - Changing room or changing facilities
SSS - Single Sex Spaces
WS - Witness Statement
WA - Whatsapp
CLC - Christian Legal Centre
SEAL - Surgical Elective Admission Lounge
DSU - Day Surgery Unit
EQA/EA -Equality Act 2010
TG - Transgender
TW - Transwoman
CR/CF - Changing room or changing facilities
SSS - Single Sex Spaces
WS - Witness Statement
WA - Whatsapp
CLC - Christian Legal Centre
SEAL - Surgical Elective Admission Lounge
DSU - Day Surgery Unit
EQA/EA -Equality Act 2010
Still waiting for session to begin
J housekeeping ?
SC Anna Telfer sworn in now please then released
SC Anna Telfer sworn in now please then released
J a member of public has requested witness statements. We have hard copies in room but can’t do this remotely. Members of press request was resolved. How deal with this particular one?
Normal scenarios question if practical to have statement onto screen / not practical. Or witness should read aloud? Not efficient. Or hear from parties? Or some professional reps can assist by setting up a website on day 1 of the hearing? Or electronic copies? I’m hesitant to email given sensitivities.
Normal scenarios question if practical to have statement onto screen / not practical. Or witness should read aloud? Not efficient. Or hear from parties? Or some professional reps can assist by setting up a website on day 1 of the hearing? Or electronic copies? I’m hesitant to email given sensitivities.
What extent are representatives able to set this up?
NF We can discuss between solicitors.
SC we would also be hesitant about emailing
J take it on face value a genuine request. In Scotland this request would be academic.
If person online and listening, watch this space for suggestions
SC correct one thing in Anna Telfer witness statement. Sworn in
NF We can discuss between solicitors.
SC we would also be hesitant about emailing
J take it on face value a genuine request. In Scotland this request would be academic.
If person online and listening, watch this space for suggestions
SC correct one thing in Anna Telfer witness statement. Sworn in
SC Anna Telfer - checking details are correct?
AT yes.
J now we hear from Sandra Watson next witness
AT yes.
J now we hear from Sandra Watson next witness
SC p 253 can you confirm your name and statement ?
AW yes.
NF Matron Elective and General Surgery?
SW My are inpatients and day surgery.
NF ward not theatre
SW ward 11 and DSU. Office on 3rd floor
NF how was your time divided?
SW non clinical between 4 areas, visit staff, check in with managers, office based staff. Visit wards most days it depends.
On band 8.
NF Manager is Helen Copper (sp?) . Looking after staff wellbeing?
SA I more regularly manage the ward managers not the staff
AW yes.
NF Matron Elective and General Surgery?
SW My are inpatients and day surgery.
NF ward not theatre
SW ward 11 and DSU. Office on 3rd floor
NF how was your time divided?
SW non clinical between 4 areas, visit staff, check in with managers, office based staff. Visit wards most days it depends.
On band 8.
NF Manager is Helen Copper (sp?) . Looking after staff wellbeing?
SA I more regularly manage the ward managers not the staff
NF if they came with a safeguarding issue would you help.
SW yes or escalate
NF re this case presence of Rose?
SW When the first letter was sent not long after my new role. I raised it with Helen I felt i couldn’t manage
NF did you raise H&S?
SW No I was junior in the role
NF would you use the CR?
You encountered Rose once?
SW yes
NF Email from Claire Gregory (ward manager) Feb 2024.
SW yes or escalate
NF re this case presence of Rose?
SW When the first letter was sent not long after my new role. I raised it with Helen I felt i couldn’t manage
NF did you raise H&S?
SW No I was junior in the role
NF would you use the CR?
You encountered Rose once?
SW yes
NF Email from Claire Gregory (ward manager) Feb 2024.
NF did you do anything with the email ?
SW no I had a convo with Claire and we decided to get HR advice
NF you remember a serious incident on another ward you didn’t know how to manage so thought better to leave to HR to address?
SW yes
NF when were you told HR was managing and what would they be doing ?
SW I didn’t know enough how to manage TW
NF not aware of the policy and leave to HR
SW yes.
NF told to leave in place. How often would you raise it?
SW Helen would say HR raising to formal process
NF when Ms Gregory would mention to you?
SW yes
NF would Ms Copper respond?
SW yes but not great at responding
SW no I had a convo with Claire and we decided to get HR advice
NF you remember a serious incident on another ward you didn’t know how to manage so thought better to leave to HR to address?
SW yes
NF when were you told HR was managing and what would they be doing ?
SW I didn’t know enough how to manage TW
NF not aware of the policy and leave to HR
SW yes.
NF told to leave in place. How often would you raise it?
SW Helen would say HR raising to formal process
NF when Ms Gregory would mention to you?
SW yes
NF would Ms Copper respond?
SW yes but not great at responding
NF another meeting Claire Gregory there. Ms Gregory not happy , you asked her to keep you informed . You say it was difficult as you’d been told not to get involved. You were anxious a solution be found . By April things seemed worse?
SW yes
NF in May you attended a meeting. You asked if policy was aligned and if I came in tomorrow and said I was male could I use the facilities? I was told by Andrew and (?) yes , then said it doesn’t seem right.
SW yes
NF in May you attended a meeting. You asked if policy was aligned and if I came in tomorrow and said I was male could I use the facilities? I was told by Andrew and (?) yes , then said it doesn’t seem right.
NF you seemed to be asking what does trans mean , hormones or just identifying however you feel. You say , maybe it’s our policies that are wrong, because that doesn’t seem right
SW I think that was me yes.
NF were you told anything this process was supposed to achieve?
SW no. I was told a formal process but nothing for me to get involved with
SW I think that was me yes.
NF were you told anything this process was supposed to achieve?
SW no. I was told a formal process but nothing for me to get involved with
NF you say AM and TA were looking at a space but you weren’t sure it was big enough. For those who objected to sharing the SSS? The 26 signatories?
SW it wasn’t unusual to look for somewhere in the area where people work eg on a ward this happens elsewhere
J it would be natural to look on the ward, common practice?
SW yes
NF the arrangement made was a meeting room emptied and lockers placed. Were you aware a shortage of lockers there?
SW don’t know - the lockers not personal but for the shift on the day. In the large CR people have their own but i understood this was to be temporary.
SW it wasn’t unusual to look for somewhere in the area where people work eg on a ward this happens elsewhere
J it would be natural to look on the ward, common practice?
SW yes
NF the arrangement made was a meeting room emptied and lockers placed. Were you aware a shortage of lockers there?
SW don’t know - the lockers not personal but for the shift on the day. In the large CR people have their own but i understood this was to be temporary.
NF major work required to make fire compliant. Reassured it would be done?
SW I escalated to Helen , I couldn’t authorise.
NF whose responsibility was it?
SW not sure , maybe Helen then up to Felicity White ?
NF emails between you and Ms Copper (sp) you say hi Helen please see emails re works , fire door etc Stuart S . what is Claire’s thought ?
SW yes work place /facility.
NF you established ward 11 wasn’t suitable. Did you consider meeting with the C yourself?
SW No I didn’t , I was advised to remain impartial. I only discussed with Claire.
NF you say statement you understand how people felt.
SW yes I was advised
NF you weren’t informed of outcome
SW no I wasn’t informed as never involved .
SW I escalated to Helen , I couldn’t authorise.
NF whose responsibility was it?
SW not sure , maybe Helen then up to Felicity White ?
NF emails between you and Ms Copper (sp) you say hi Helen please see emails re works , fire door etc Stuart S . what is Claire’s thought ?
SW yes work place /facility.
NF you established ward 11 wasn’t suitable. Did you consider meeting with the C yourself?
SW No I didn’t , I was advised to remain impartial. I only discussed with Claire.
NF you say statement you understand how people felt.
SW yes I was advised
NF you weren’t informed of outcome
SW no I wasn’t informed as never involved .
NF photo of posters put up. Also a poster ‘inclusive changing room’ on it. Who told you about the poster?
SW unsure maybe Claire.
NF you were to Ms Copper and she told you to leave it alone . She didn’t know who’d put it. SW At the time Catherine Burn (sp) would have been dep Director nursing. said you were uncomfortable with first poster and she said yes to take down.
NF You had a convo with Beth H concerned about her job.
SW yes.
NF this is a later document , a public petition to report BH to medical council for transphobia. Did you see those complaints?
SW no
J any previous witness referred?
NF
SW unsure maybe Claire.
NF you were to Ms Copper and she told you to leave it alone . She didn’t know who’d put it. SW At the time Catherine Burn (sp) would have been dep Director nursing. said you were uncomfortable with first poster and she said yes to take down.
NF You had a convo with Beth H concerned about her job.
SW yes.
NF this is a later document , a public petition to report BH to medical council for transphobia. Did you see those complaints?
SW no
J any previous witness referred?
NF
NF here are 4 separate complaints. (Reading). Correspondence BH responds.
SC how is this relevant?
J from members of the public - what has it got to do with the case?
NF whether BH in fear of her job
J Ms Hutchinson told us she said they wouldn’t dare discipline her at this stage. What is the value of asking this witness whether Ms Hutchinson is right? What can this witness offer?
SC how is this relevant?
J from members of the public - what has it got to do with the case?
NF whether BH in fear of her job
J Ms Hutchinson told us she said they wouldn’t dare discipline her at this stage. What is the value of asking this witness whether Ms Hutchinson is right? What can this witness offer?
NF I’m content to tailor the question. The impact.
J ok I’m not so concerned about the letter but fine if limited to what witness discussed
NF you say she might lose her job
SW as registered nurses we are bound by NMC but I don’t know the alleged breaches the Trust
SC what does that mean
J Yes
SW if stripped of registration you would lose your job potentially
J ok I’m not so concerned about the letter but fine if limited to what witness discussed
NF you say she might lose her job
SW as registered nurses we are bound by NMC but I don’t know the alleged breaches the Trust
SC what does that mean
J Yes
SW if stripped of registration you would lose your job potentially
NF thank you no more questions.
J take short break now.
J take short break now.
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