Thread by @tribunaltweets

We will shortly be tweeting the second morning session of day 9 of evidence from the hearing Ms b Hutchinson v County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust. Our full coverage is available on our Substack tribunaltweets.substack.com

References to unknown Cropper ? name above is likely to be Helen Coppock, Associate Director of Nursing (not a tribunal witness)

SW returns as current witness.

SW leaves. New witness.

Sue Gregory (SG) is discussing Lesley Smedley who she'd contact [apologies - sound issues]
NF In 2023 yr office is the locker room under discussion?
SG Yes. My door was always physically open on that corridor
NF Where were u movd to
SG Around the corner to the start of the ward

NF Y've never seen Rose
No
NF Y've listened to evid to date
Yes
NF Listened to evid re walking thru the ward and out again
SG Yes. Could have been in the dept collecting trolleys
NF Is about RH walking down and out
SG I wldnt know why wld do that

NF Were u aware of issues in 2023
SG No
NF Had come from DSU at that time re CR
SG Believe I was on annual leave an directed to Ally Quinn in my absence
NF In Feb 24, u say in WS. Were u aware Rose [missed]
SG Not until girls came to me

NF Conduct raised in CR in Feb 24
Yes
NF A mtg between u and employees on 19 Feb to discuss
SG Yes> I've read the transcript but not heard the recording
NF On p290 that shows it, u see speech attrib to u [reads re contacting HR and deciding course of action
Yes, Is about my convo w Ms Smedley

SG She wanted me to set out the concerns
NF BH handed a letter to u. [reads] U were being invited to give a fuller account
Yes
NF This is an email to HR. U say nobody's happy. No-one is comfy getting changed. Reads re trust has a duty to be sane

My responsibility is day to day for welfare, eg staff sickness. rather than H&S.
NF The risk of RHs conduct in CR was this for u to handle or others
SG I had to get concerns on paper and escalate to s'one who cld help and guide
NF U refer to duty to safety.

Sound from court was not working. Has now been restored. 15 mins of evidence missed. Current witness is Claire Gregory , Ward Manager DSU

NF Ms Bradbury ‘morally not right’? You said ‘you won’t get very far’
J what did you think she meant?
CG I felt she felt it wasn’t right a male using a female CR.

NF What did u understand by morally here by Miss bradbury saying morally isnt right?
SG I think she was saying it wasnt right to have a male changing there
NF On p298, [reads re husband not wanting her to get changed] Did u consider this moral or safety category
More moral

Ms B ‘my husband doesn’t feel it’s right.’ Moral or safety?
CG more moral.

NF BH says [reads re international nurses] Were these nurses at the mtg
SG I cant recall if they were. I know that when we sent email to HR names of those present. But looking at transcript.
NF Can u see names on the left
SG Yes. [gives 2 names]

NF international nurses, different religion. Were they in the meeting?
CG I don’t recall.
NF names on left
CG reads names.
J international nurses?
CG these two from India also Africa
J any country in the world?
CG yes

J What is an international nurse
SG They come from India
J Do u use this term re nurses in the trust. Cld they be from any country?
SG Yes and yes. They're permanent staff
NF Read this email on p214.

[two threads are going now - there have been serious sound issues. This thread will end]

all permanent yes.
NF you say I’ve just said in SEAL we won’t get response you want. 19th Feb email did you forward?
CG I think to HR ?
NF you ask ‘when he’s getting changed , does he get changed’
He’s looking around at everyone
Doing that or like that - what does that mean?

NF you discuss Rose using cubicles. You say why doesn’t he go there?
CG didn’t know what HR would consider
NF when you take top off he does that? Do you recall gestures?
CG no.

NF coming and going in uniform not an option
CG no.
NF p 302, Ms Bradbury saying echo anonymously what do you understand?
CG local paper Northern Echo

NF you had an idea of numbers
CG 26 people signed so just over half the staff of DSU

Apologies the witness is SUE Gregory not Claire

NF you wrote the email. Smedley forwarded to Laidlaw. You sent material materials a few days later to Ms Smedley

NF this is you feeling things to Smedley from female staff who raised concerns
SG yes.
NF question whether exaggerated did you hear that?
SG no

NF ward meeting 5 March. A huddle
SG daily huddle so staff aware of duties

SG A ward meeting is general. Yes brought up.
NF at this point you emailed Smedley re a meeting with HR so HR could advise directly.
SG yes.

NF language you used communicated urgent attention’huge risk to female employees, Trust not looking after interest, some are afraid’ . Did you expect fast response?
SG yes.
NF fast solution?
SG no. Because of complexity.

NF meeting you were calling for in March, when that meeting took place was that in May?
SG yes

NF letter with 26 signatories. What did you anticipate from HR?
SG acknowledge concerns and open communication

NF teams meeting 15 April. You thought it was re the letter?
SG yes. A range of managers I was took off guard.

NF Ms Atkinson took the meeting. Are the notes correct? (Reading) Corrects para 25 .

NF also please look p799. 13 August 2024 investigative interview with you. Asked about 15 April meeting. You say I was took off guard , that Ms said ‘staff need educating and training’

NF Ms Smith replied to that ‘thank you, I’ve passed this issue to relevant parties. Complex issues to manage.’
You reply ‘I appreciate complexity, I still await dates and times for another meeting’

SG I think it was a case of crossed wires.
NF attendance to find appropriate (solutions)
then Ms Atkinson writes ‘what does good look like , what do staff seek as a remedy? ‘

NF you say the team want a safe place for all including Rose. Don’t want a situation our word against theirs. That also expresses concern for Rose. Also a risk to Rose?
SG yes if an allegation made towards Rose.

NF both Rose and female Ns should all feel safe is that what you wanted?
SG yes.

NF later meeting. Ms Atkinson wrote previously told a task group set up to explore options with estates team. Then your office was chosen to be a locker room.
SG originally just storage NF know it was already going to be repurposed?

NF who decided your room should be used as a locker room?
SG my matron but I think came from Catherine Burn?
NF and the single room?
SG same
NF wee you concerned not adequate?

SG told it was temporary
NF Fire safety work informed?
SG yes
NF did you expect it would run till July 2025?

SG knew it was complicated
NF action taken to change it?
SG it wasn’t for me to take that action
J witness has already said above her level

NF others have said lower level should deal with.
NF how comms done?
SG I was bridge between nurses and HR. Nobbosy knew what to do.
NF Did you have the support you needed to support your staff?

SG initially me then I also talked to Sandra
NF end May letter from Ms Smith.

NF it says having reviewed all correspondence it would be next stage more formal investigation. Did you understand nature of investigation?
SG Trusts way of investigating

NF where you said before a safe space needed for all , did you think it needed an investigation? Ms Coppack is named
SG because Dir of Nursing
NF action on ground?
SG no

NF you contacted Ms Coppack asking for support from higher management.
SG that was the ask was from the staff. I wasn’t able to implement anything so they wanted to speak management that could

NF you were told support should be provided by you
SG Yes

NF you were asked as part of the investigation about the posters in the room re NMC code and re inclusive changing room.

NF inclusive CR poster raised at 6.40 am. In both those cases you told Ms Watson about them. Are members of staff permitted to produce their own posters with trust logo?

SG usually from comms department

J thank you Ms Gregory.
SC discuss timetable then lunch.
J back at 2pm

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