Thread by @tribunaltweets

Good afternoon; welcome to the afternoon session on 4th November in the case of Ms B Hutchinson & others vs County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust at Employment Tribunal.

When the hearing resumes at 2pm, Rose Henderson (the male colleague whose use of the female changing room at the hospital is the issue before the Tribunal) will continue giving evidence; this began this morning and our coverage is here archive.ph/m70QT

Our substack page about the case, with a full list of abbreviations, is tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/eight-nurses…

We report what we hear in good faith but do not provide a verbatim record of proceedings.

We expect the hearing to resume at 2pm with Rose Henderson (RH) being cross-examined by the claimants' barrister Niazi Fetto KC (NF)

[We resume]

NF: [ref Vol2 pt2 pg2083]
NF: This is plan of the floor we have been discussing. I was asking b4 about you going along to the ward [talks through plan]
RH: Yes I remember

NF: You said you might be looking for a person or a trolley. Surely shortest route would be through the doors?
RH: Yes
NF: And you'd look into bays for trolleys?
RH: Yes glance in as walking by

NF: para10 of your WS.
NF: You discuss expression of your gender identity. You have had female partner throughout period we're discussing?
RH: Yes

NF: You say 4 things re your GI. Your physical appearance?
RH: Believe so.
NF: I mean this in your WS?
RH: Don't mean my appearance exactly, more that have always been open as TW

NF: So mainly, your name choice and pronouns?
RH: Yes have always been open

NF: You recall Jane Shields?
RH: Yes
NF: Working with her 2022?
RH: Yes believe so
NF: She left Dec 2022
RH OK

NF: Do you remember working with her 2020 too?RH:Yes
NF: Do you remember discussing your transition with her?
RH: No

NF: We have discussed shift patterns here before. Yours end 6pm? Did hers too?
RH: Anaeshesia can be slightly different shift
NF: JS does not recall you in changing room [missed]
NF: JS recalls a convo with you, [3 other ppl 2 named]
RH: Don't recall. Students don't work night shifts.

NF: [ref p1016]
NF: Your i/v as part of i/x Nov 2024
NF: Have you read recently?
RH: Yes
NF: Stand by these replies?
RH: AFAICrecall

NF: Including this one - you say [it is not read out] Correct?
RH: Yes
NF: As part of process you listed theatre colleagues you wanted as witnesses. Listed here. Includes [reads 3 names]

NF {ref p1047]
NF: This is note of i/v with 1 of them. You see Ms Newton asks, 'has RH ever told you'? - you see that? over the page 1048
RH: There are 2 starting like that
NF: You are right - this one

NF: You see Ms Leeson says [not said out loud] - have you discussed this with Ms L?
RH: Yes

NF: [ref p1052]
NF: This is s form part of i/v process - go over to p1053, Q11 and the reply.
NF: Ms Weddell is saying 'yes', and gives details. Is she right in that answer?
RH: Yes we had had discussion about my and wife intent to have family later in our lives

NF back to p1041. This is replies by Ms Norris to same Q. She again says yes. You had discussed with her too?
RH: yes, but, later in life, not at present.

NF: [ref para15 of WS]
NF: You refer to picking up scrubs in the changing room. Read para16 too
NF: You say you somtimes walk round CR fully dressed?
RH: Yes when I come in and then go to locker.

NF: So you pick up scrubs, go to locker, fully clothed, and then you might discover wrong size?
RH: Or ink stains or something
NF: And you say you always change back into full clothing before going to change scrubs?
RH: Yes always fully clothed.
NF: Never partially clothed?
RH: No

NF: You speak to colleagues, you say you became more relaxed and conversational over time
RH: Yes
NF: Might talk a lot to someone you knew well?
RH: Yes

NF: You say close to Ms Weddell and you often wait for her?
RH: If shifts align yes
NF: So you might be in the CR quite a while?
RH: If much hanging around for her I would tend to wait outside. She normally gets finished first though

NF: You own boxer shorts with holes in?
RH: I expect some of them are slightly damaged yes
NF: You say you always face your locker when changing?
RH: Yes almost always. Sometimes I use cubicle. Bascially I face my locker or the corner.

NF: Other than when walking around?
RH: Yes
NF: Or when talking to collegaues?
RH: No wouldn't be looking at them really
NF: This is not realistic is it?
RH: Yes it would be

NF: You know the Cs produced witness statements for the i/x. You saw these?
RH: Yes
NF: Do you recall when?
RH: Not exactly no

NF: Your i/v was Nov 2024, had you seen any of the Cs statements then?
RH: I don't think so

NF: Re your conduct in the CR. I will take in order. Starting with Ms Lockie's statement [refs to that WS]
NF: She describes encounter Jan24. Says c5.45 went into CR, it was packed. 30+ women?
RH: Yes

NF: She says she got changed in loo cubicle to avoid you, came out & you were still there. Sound right to you?
RH: Cd be. I don't recall the incident.

NF: She says you saw her go in and came out, and gave her a long look.
RH: Don't remember seeing her in CR at all. I don't know DSU staff well enough to know names

NF: Sure, but she says you had seen her go into cubicle to avoid you, and you gave her a challenging look when she came out.
RH: I didn't know who she was, why would I pay her any attention. Lots of staff use the cubicles.

NF: [ref p113]
NF: Ms Shields' WS. [para12 p116] She remembers you having a shower and drying off in CR in full view
RH: Never occurred
NF: What she says is false?
RH: Yes

NF: J I need to look up a reference
J: Perhaps p109?
[they discuss what page is wanted]

NF: This is Ms Sinclair's WS - do you know her?
RH: Vaguely - worked with her when student.
NF: [ref] please read
RH: [does so]

NF: She says para14 she often saw you in holey boxer shorts and top, usually facing into the room. You'd have that as a stage of changing?
RH: Yes
NF: And facing into the room
RH: Not my standard practice.
NF: You disagree with 'often'?
RH: Yes

NF: [ref p70]
NF: [another WS - missed name]
NF: para7 p71 she says, she describes what she saw. What she says you were wearing corresponds with our description of your underwear?
RH: No - one pair maybe - mainly my underwear is not riddled with holes

NF: She says walking up and down. She described route, to and fro to scrubs. You say, false allegation?
RH: If allegation is that I was walking just in undergarments then yes. Wd have been fully dressed if I needed to pick up change of scrubs

NF: So you say false allegation, that you were in state of undress?
RH: Yes

NF: She describes you hanging around in CR for no obvious reason, do you accept that?
RH: no

NF: Says you started at ppl in changing room particularly her.
RH: False allegation.

NR: [ref p44] Ms Bradbury WS, please read pp44-45.
RH [does]
NF: She says wandering about only in boxer shorts. Again you say - ?
RH: False allegation
NF: Moving about, but not like that?
RH: Yes

NF: She says, more than one occasion - para8 - you say the same?
RH: Yes
NF: para9 - says you stared at her and others
RH: Again, false allegation

NF: We also heard from Sharon Trevarrow, you know her?
RH: Not personally

NF [ref - p650]

NF: This is i/v with ST Sept 2024, she was ward housekeeper. p651 she's asked if she knows why other staff raised concerns - she says, you looked ppl up and down. Is that false?
RH: Well obviously I have *seen* ppl in CR, but not *looking them up and down*

NF: She says locker close to yours did you know that?
RH: I don't know who she is, so no
NF: She's asked about inappropriate behaviour, she says, just staring and looking at ppl
RH: False, I don't stare

NF: There are transcripts in the bundle Feb 2024 and May 2024, have you read those?
RH: I know they're there, not sure I have read all of them.

NF: One partic bit from May, [missed page, 368?]
NF 16:52 and 17:17 Lianne Dennis talking, do you know her?
RH: No
NF: If you read those entries
NF: She says she felt you were staring at her chest.
RH: That's false

NF: Ward meeting DSU Feb2024. p294.
NF: Ms Gregory asks about you changing, multiple answers, many saying you look at everyone
RH: Already said. I stare at my locker or use a cubicle.

NF [ref p287]
NF: Ms Corrie says she had top off and you were looking. You know her?
RH: No
NF: You again say this is false?
RH: Yes

NF: [ref p26, another WS]
NF: pls read para98-99. Ms Hutchison WS
NF: Do you know Vivienne Robinson?
RH: No. And the allegation is false.
NF: Do you remember any convo with [missed]
RH: No

NF [ref p30] Ms Danson WS
NF: Account of encounter 2023.
NF: Says, alone in CR with you
RH: Don't recall ever being alone with her in CR
NF: She says, scrub top and boxers - consistent with your routine?
RH: Yes

NF: She says you asked 3 times, are you not getting changed yet. You have no recolletion?
RH: No. No recollection of her at all.
NF: She descibes her reaction - crying and shaking
RH: I have read that yes.

NF: And you say, this is false?
RH: This encounter never occurred.

NF: When were you first made aware of the details of all this?
RH: Can't remember exactly

NF: [ref p 1015]
NF: Seems to have been raised with you during i/x Nov 24? Asks about what KD had said, you say you don't know who she is. You didn't just say no, that's not true. Why not?
RH: Cd be, bcs I'd just come off night shift b4 meeting. But answer is true - didn't know KD at the time

NF: No more Qs
J: thank you Mr Fetto. Need to check re Qs from us - we will take a short break, 10 minutes or so. You're still in evidence, can't discuss case meanwhile.

[BREAK]

@threadreaderapp please unroll